Tier List Speculation

[The_NZA]

Everyone already knows what ganon needs. Either a hold release warlock punch that reflects projectiles, or a ability to throw up a hitbox wall like that one character in 3rd strike. That **** would be HYPE.

 

[CORY]

or a ability to throw up a hitbox wall like that one character in 3rd strike. That **** would be HYPE.

haha, i was actually just talking about something like that in the ganon forums and i actually train of thoughted to it from thinking of urien : p

he still also needs a lower grab box. just slightly.

 

[Paradoxium]

Aim

Ok I see,


cuz i won like every tourney with fox lol (altho i use a LOT of chars every tourney most people only post Fox on the results pages i noticed. I also notice that PM "pros" who don't come from a melee background have NO IDEA what they're doing vs fox/falco).

and top melee pros, who a lot of which use fox, make a strong, but ot that strong transition into PM (they do well cuz they're top players that used the char for 100s/1000s of hours), which should be expected but still surprises people

and yeah PM is very counterpick based game imo

in response to "knowing the matchup" i disagree. Fast fallers are characters that should be hit VERY HARD when they get hit. Most people do not take their hits as far as they can go.

example - when you hit a floaty, you will still hit them once or twice. A mediocre marth in FD might do a 30% chain grab to fox on FD. Since I know how to take my hits far (and it's all 100% guaranteed unless I mess up), I can guarantee a 0-80 at very least (or mixups like ken combo instead of smash, etc). Fast fallers will get hit REALLY hard when they get hit. The fact I get away from only being hit with tiny combos, to me, proves that people aren't that good at the game yet. )I actually feel this way about pretty much everyone, in every smash game, besides the top top players of each game. but it applies even more to PM since it's way newer and less mastered and more unexplored). At least not in combos/followups/etc.

Hits could be taken WAY further.

Thank you for reminding us that sometimes players lose because they lack match-up knowledge/skill and not because,"omg fox op!" This isn't just Fox, This goes for every character that someone loses to and shouts "OP!"

 

[Hylian]

didn't someone say that the pivot grab was like 80 or something?

They said it was 95 frames, his pivot grab is 58. Links grabs are hard to look at compared to some other characters because of the frame speed modifiers so people often get the data wrong. I originally guessed 50-60 from memory and then saw the graphic someone else posted and forgot about FSM's. Cross referencing sources is good though and I found the frames of his grab posted in here were incorrect. I posted a list with the correct framedata of every tether in the game if you are interested in looking a few pages back. I like that you went and tested it for yourself though .

 

[Terotrous]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lOdcF_bOrvs

this is the lucas vid, correct?

This doesn't necessarily prove much because this combo is probably escapable at multiple points via DI.

How is a horizontal aerial downB gonna help his neutral game much? Hell, outside of recovery or a godly read when would you use it over aerial sideB?

I can see a few uses for it:

From mid range to go over projectiles. Remember, you can act afterwards, so as long as the recovery isn't too awful you have decent options afterwards, kind of like a slower mewtwo teleport or Peach Float.

From point blank range as a strong but risky footsie tool (it starts up pretty fast, the hitbox seems quite advantageous, and you get a followup afterwards if it hits point blank, but you'd better make sure they don't block)

For chasing someone offstage to follow up on certain attacks. The advantage here is that you could go pretty far offstage, do Fair, then use your midair jump and Up B to make it back. I suspect Bthrow, Jump, DownB, Fair would work at certain percentages.


Of course, the exact situations in which it would be useful would depend on frame data, for example, just how advantageous the hitbox on his foot is, and how long it takes him to act out of it afterwards.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

Whose the better wolf
SW or CHILLIN?

 

[Axrz]

"most people can't take spacies 0-death like I can on FD, people need to take their punish games farther"

you know, I would agree, IF spacies ever let me take them to FD. like really? the only reason spacies ever get punished that hard is

1. because they don't know to ban FD, meaning they are terrible.

2. They made t to winners finals and are against an amazing opponent who can do that AND take them to FD.

the PM ruleset does not let Fox get taken to FD and a huge weakness of his is removed

You don't need FD to hard punish spacies.

 

[Ripple]

You don't need it, you're right. but m2k is saying that he can consistently do that.

Consistently doing that on every other stage is near impossible.

Like I said, FD is not a forced stage in PM compared to melee and m2k should stop comparing the games like it is

 

[PsionicSabreur]

Here's the Lucas shield pressure video. I'd suggest following the link in the description to the corresponding SB thread, if you're looking for technical details (and an interesting read).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iXpc2W510dE
However, and correct me if I'm wrong, I don't think this level of destruction is exactly replicable in 3.0 because of shield health and magnet no longer dealing extra shield damage. Not to say it's subpar by any stretch of the imagination, of course; I'd say Lucas still has a case for best shield pressure in the game.

 

[Oro?!]

This thread is stupid.

 

[didds]

good, I'm finally starting to fit in then

 

[Chesstiger2612]

Hylian said that before he closed the Top Players thread does this mean... Oo

 

[The_NZA]

This thread is stupid.

Stop stealing my strategy. Hylian taught me how to get likes.

 

[1MachGO]

You don't need it, you're right. but m2k is saying that he can consistently do that.

Consistently doing that on every other stage is near impossible.

Like I said, FD is not a forced stage in PM compared to melee and m2k should stop comparing the games like it is

Well, "near impossible" is a bit of a stretch. Getting a spacie to hard land on a small platform and then following up for big damage is well within the bounds of optimization.

 

[Soft Serve]

I agree with the fact that PM characters are no where near the level of optimization that Melee high tiers have been developed to. My biggest fear in PM is that while Melee characters for the most part have to make the most of the tools they had and are forced to use moves in counter-intuitive ways to make things just work (Falcon is the best example of this) PM characters as a whole don't really have bad moves or ones that don't have an obvious situation where it would be useful. PM characters are monsters tbh, and I do love it.

To highlight the level of optimization that still needs to be done, Look at how well understood marth is: http://smashboards.com/threads/kadano’s-perfect-marth-class—advanced-frame-data-application.337035/

once threads like this start popping up for PM characters and the information within it completely utilized, the metagame will blow up imo. It will take a while because character to character interactions are still being fleshed out and there are a ton of matchups, but most characters have insane potential.

 

[batistabus]

I think wolf is prob better, but no really good wolf player yet

and by no really good wolf player i mean, if someone of armada's calibur picked up wolf he would pretty much instantly be the best wolf

Are Chillin and SilentWolf not considered really good players? If so, do you only consider good players you, Armada, Mango, and Peepee? What about Hbox, who plays Olimar? Does Ally count? Other top Brawl players?

 

[MagnesD3]

If sheik ever needs a buff id like to see her given her b over tether from brawl. I just hate how so many good changes from brawl have been ignored, or are just overshadowed, but I could be wrong and they tested some of the good brawl changes and deemed them too good or something.

 

[Oro?!]

Being good at Melee helps a lot more than being good at Brawl in Project M. In addition, all of the Melee tops are extremely potent so it's essentially 2 birds with 1 stone.

 

[HaZarD2kv]

It is called project M, not Project B, lol. Melee skill transfers extremely well. Brawl players would have a harder time wavedashing and L-cancelling I would imagine. Also Ripple, is there no Show Me Your Moves this year?

 

[Ripple]

there will be, I just couldn't get a venue within the next 2 months. so it'll be after school is out this year

 

[Terotrous]

It is called project M, not Project B, lol. Melee skill transfers extremely well. Brawl players would have a harder time wavedashing and L-cancelling I would imagine. Also Ripple, is there no Show Me Your Moves this year?

L-Cancel is super easy, I picked it up pretty much instantly. Wavedashing gives me a little more trouble, I sometimes end up with a triangle jump instead. It doesn't help that the timing is a little different for every character.

 

[Osennecho]

L-Cancel is super easy, I picked it up pretty much instantly. Wavedashing gives me a little more trouble, I sometimes end up with a triangle jump instead. It doesn't help that the timing is a little different for every character.

It's all easy. The only problem is implementing it into your game at a competitive level/not screwing it up in tournament setting when you have nerves to deal with also.

 

[Paradoxium]

It's all easy. The only problem is implementing it into your game at a competitive level/not screwing it up in tournament setting when you have nerves to deal with also.

I agree 100%

Newer players will often times think that they're good because they know a bunch of advanced techs, hell even i was like that when i was first starting. Learning how to do them is the easy part, applying them to your gameplay is where the difficulty is at

 

[Terotrous]

It's all easy. The only problem is implementing it into your game at a competitive level/not screwing it up in tournament setting when you have nerves to deal with also.

Well yeah. I can wavedash easily enough in training mode, but it's a bit trickier to always get it when I want it in a real match.

L-Cancel and Glide Toss are pretty easy though, I virtually never miss those in matches anymore.

 

[Bryonato]

Being good at Melee helps a lot more than being good at Brawl in Project M. In addition, all of the Melee tops are extremely potent so it's essentially a bird and a fox with 1 stone.

FTFY

 

[jtm94]

Glad to see Wizzrobe playing again.

That being said, Sonic is extremely boring to watch in tourney, especially against MK.

 

[HaZarD2kv]

L-Cancel is super easy, I picked it up pretty much instantly. Wavedashing gives me a little more trouble, I sometimes end up with a triangle jump instead. It doesn't help that the timing is a little different for every character.

Not saying you or others can't pick it up easily, doing it consistently though, in tournament as well, is much harder than it sounds. It's like Osennecho said, nerves play an important role and take a well mind set as well.

 

[Seagull Joe]

It is called project M, not Project B, lol. Melee skill transfers extremely well. Brawl players would have a harder time wavedashing and L-cancelling I would imagine. Also Ripple, is there no Show Me Your Moves this year?

That's a bunch of bull. L-cancelling and wavedashing are effortless. I NEVER played melee competitively, but I can do that simple crap effortlessly.

 

[SixSaw]

 

[HaZarD2kv]

That's a bunch of bull. L-cancelling and wavedashing are effortless. I NEVER played melee competitively, but I can do that simple crap effortlessly.

You may be a special case sir. Everyone may not be technically sound like you are, I started with melee and had trouble at first. Once I was good at melee, I heard about Project M and started playing it a lot as well and my tech skill naturally fit into the game. If I went to Brawl from these kind of games and tried to learn all the good tech skill, then it would take me a while as well.

 

[Fish&Herbs19]

I'm sorry to be rude to the newer players in this thread, but wavedashing and l-canceling are very basic technical things that no one should mess up. I learned how to do them fairly quickly, and after a while, applications such as buffering wavedash out of shield become second nature.

 

[Paradoxium]

You may be a special case sir. Everyone may not be technically sound like you are, I started with melee and had trouble at first. Once I was good at melee, I heard about Project M and started playing it a lot as well and my tech skill naturally fit into the game. If I went to Brawl from these kind of games and tried to learn all the good tech skill, then it would take me a while as well.

Brawl isn't a brain dead game like everyone makes it sound, I can imagine that skilled brawl players have no problem learning techs and applying them in their gameplay, and if you we're good at brawl you are probably good at pm because the fundamentals transfer over. The only thing that would probably give brawl players a hard time would be the different physics and mechanics, and more options to utilize

I have no idea what I'm talking about lol I'm just trying to sound smart

 

[Terotrous]

You do have to unlearn a bit when going from Brawl to PM, most notably there's a load of times in Brawl where you'd use air dodge that obviously don't work here. I've mostly gotten that out of my system by now.

But anyway this is off-topic. We're supposed to be whining about space animals in here.

 

[9bit]

From what I understand, having played competitive Brawl certainly can (does) help you in PM. Those Brawl players are good, by necessity, at like, not attacking in unsafe situations, and probably DI, and stuff. But they do sorta gotta learn a whole new set of ATs and unlearn some stuff like Terotrous said.

I've also read that playing other fighting games helps you in PM, but I hate "traditional" fighting games, so I don't play any myself.

 

[Soft Serve]

S0ftie's semi-controversial tier list/grouping thingy 1.0!

I'm tired of "safe" groupings based off of a bit of speculation and a lot of horribly uneducated opinions. So I decided to make a grouping made completely off of speculation, theory-smashing, and my uneducated opinion.

The characters will fall into multiple categories, I.e. one character can be in multiple groups, and the groups themselves will have "tiers" in them.

I want to preface this that Footstools ARE BROKEN and more people should use them.

Spoiler

Group 1- "Oh, you thought shields were supposed to protect you?"
these dude have stupid nasty shield pressure, have multiple non-grab options to punish people for shielding, or abuse stupid strong footstool mechanics that allow for free combos if someone spreads their legs and present (a shield for them).

• group 1-a: these dudes have stupid shield punish potential AND have abilities, be is good hitboxes or speed, to maintain aggression or control the pace of the match in a way that forces shielding on the opponent's end often. Fox, Falco, Wolf, Lucas, Diddy, Tink, Mewtwo, MK
  • Everyone knows spacies have pressure, but they don't recognize how obnoxious footstools are. If you shield preemptively against someone with good projectiles in hand often (diddy tink) they can AGT right after the footstool and get free punishes. MK can footstool DJ Dair, which is a combo starter. he can literally FOOT-FOOT DIVE. Mewtwo can Footstool DJC uair/nair/dair/fair whatever and get a free combo. He can also set these up with things like shadowball into empty teleport footstool. Lucas has all the same Footstool DJC options but can also do them out of his magnet, and he of course has the best shield pressure in the game regardless.

• Group 1-b: these dudes have stupid shield punish potential but either require a less common situation to get it up or lack something that prevents the opponent from needing to shield preemptively instead of on reaction. Ness, Yoshi, Wario, Peach, Link, kirby, snake
  • This section have similar footstool djc/projectile junk that the other group does, but other than Ness/wario, dont have the best ways to set up or control the neutral. Link controls the neutral really well by why go for a footstool on someone's sheild with a bomb in hand when you could just throw boomerangs amiright? Ness is probably the scariest in the group, as sometimes you HAVE to shield side-bs, and ness does have a decent neutral game. Ness is semi-unique in that he has a really strong horizontal kill option off of an aerial and can DJC into it after a footstool. Yoshi has insane DJC Uair combos and this is just another way to set them up. Peach has projectiles to work with, as well as a float and DJCs, although she already has frame advantage on FC Fairs and people don't shield too often when peach is jumping at them. Kirby has down-b which can function sorta like a FOOT-FOOT DIVE. Snake is a boss in that if someone shields something he can sticky them just because they flinched. Footstool >up-b Dair/uair work as well for him. Other characters that might have potential in this regard are Lucario (move on sheild> JC> footstool>dair sounds feasible and sexy) Falcon ( depending on how high he get after the stool he might be able to fast fall knee/stomp) and Sonic (Footstool spring, footstool footdive, footstool falling down-b all sound like they could work). Squirtle probably has some interesting things to do as well with side-b and down-b.

Group 2- "Oh you thought you had a neutral game? nope, this game belongs to me."

• group 2-a: these guys are top-tier are disrespecting people options in the neutral game. Be it good mobility, projectiles, or a pairing of the two, these characters have no issue taking control of the pace of the match at anytime. Falco, Tink, Link, Mario
• Group 2-b: This group is good at disrepecting people, but can't just force their way most of the time. They either have to respect some options and abuse a bait and punish game, or their projectile game isn't as strong. Fox, Lucas, Ivy, Diddy, Sanic, Sheik, Wolf, Samus, Olimar, squirtle.

Group 3: "So I heard PM has good recoveries? that cool, I kill off the top anyway"

• This group is pretty self explainatory. These characters kill (non gimp wise) off the top primarily or have a lot of options to do so, so they don't give a crap about good recoveries and flourish on the light/floatyness that is semi-common in PM. Fox, Snake, Pit, Ivy,

Group 4: "You thought you were punishing me? CCCC-Combo breaker!"

• This group either have stupid fast options to relieve pressure, are really floaty and thus aren't combo'd easily, or trade favorably most often with their combo breakers. A: Luigi, peach, Samus, Snake, Jiggs, GnW(Up-b 1 frame hitbox *******) B: Fox, falco, wolf (shineslol) Ivy, Bowser(armorlol)

group 5: "hey, stay off stage please, yeah thanks"

• These dudes are the new gimping monsters, being able to cover a multitude of options that new PM recoveries possess or are very good at going off stage and intercepting B tier has to work harder for them or make predictions to cover all options most of the time, but are still far better than most characters on the ledge. A: Jiggs, Pit, DDD, Ivy, MK. B: Marth, Peach, zard,

Group 6: "don't make a mistake or I'll take a stock"
This group has really strong punish potential and have the ability to take stock rapidly off of one combo starter. Most of the cast can do this but some are better than others.

• A: DK, DDD, GnW, Jiggs, Mario, Link, Falco,
• B: like everyone

group 7: "please make a lot of mistakes because my entire game play requires you to mess up and fall into my things:

• A: zelda. ( I'm only kinda kidding, but a lot of zelda's game plan is just hoping people make the same mistake again and again. I'm don't want to paint zelda as that one-dimentional because shes not, as no smash character can be with the intricate spacing game, but its there.

I started this because I wanted to say that characters with DJC have way too many options on the opponents shield to wreck havoc. IT devolved into something completely non-tangential, but theres some merit to looking at the cast in how they deal with certain situations. But seriously, please go try to footstool > DJC uair with yoshi and tell me you would feel comfortable playing against a good yoshi, knowing that the moment you try to preemptively shield an attack you're going to eat an uair/nair at the minimum. Footstool> DJC> Dair does like 32489734% and with good timing an up-tilt is guaranteed.

If people read this mess they should take away that footstools are really really underdeveloped and probably will become a staple of offensive/defensive options for a lot of characters. Also if anyone can get a video up of shadowball> empty teleport > footstool >DJC uair before I do it I'll paypal you a dollar.

Also, on the current discussion, I think its incredibly difficult for someone to factor in the uses of even the most basic movement techniques and options into character viability and matchup opinions, when they can't do said techniques, let alone utilize them. I couldn't talk about the uses of Plinking or charge partitioning in traditional fighters (or that jump cancel thing that Dante does in Marvel, or how fuzzy guards work or anything) because not only do I not know the ins and outs of them, I have no fundamental experience with the use of them. I could say that "they make certain things easier and some things become more viable/possible" but that doesn't mean I actually have a familiarity of them to the point I could confidently say I understand what they are good at and when to use them.

 

[Crezyte]

While the throws themselves are excellent, Ganon's grab range is ridiculously short. Extending it a bit won't make him broken or anything. Either way, it's just a suggestion, albeit a more realistic one than other buff suggestions I've seen.

Seeing as how ganon 0-60+ chain grab most of the characters in PM and can DACUS follow up... unlikely. Plus you should be able to get grabs if you are mind gaming well enough. (or you could just... I dunno U-air forced getup like I've done in melee... there are a few setups in PM for this...)

Glad to see Wizzrobe playing again.

That being said, Sonic is extremely boring to watch in tourney, especially against MK.

I humbly disagree with Sonic being boring to watch. If you think about what he is doing, its actually incredible how he is getting all these different moves to chain together into a solid combo. Maybe against plup it wasn't as great but I most certainly enjoyed it and rooted for Wizzy.

 

[DrinkingFood]

Is it just me or is Kirby impossible to juggle
like literally impossible
It's awkward enough you have to have crazy disjoint to combo him a lot of the time because of ****ing nair
and he's floaty
but then on top of all that he has a get out of jail free card
who's the ****** that thought up that down-b
I've said this before but every time I play a Kirby it just reminds me how brain dead that character is
questions such as "How do I neutral game" are simply "dash the attack on the ground, dash the cutter in the air"
questions like "How do I not get comboed" are simply "nair, or down-b to return to neutral"
questions like "How do I recover" are simply "how can you possibly mess this up"

If you think about what he is doing, its actually incredible how he is getting all these different moves to chain together into a solid combo.

yeah it's incredible when you run so fast that your any move links into your any move and then if they go too high you run then up-b and hit them with your any move

 

[HaZarD2kv]

Brawl isn't a brain dead game like everyone makes it sound, I can imagine that skilled brawl players have no problem learning techs and applying them in their gameplay, and if you we're good at brawl you are probably good at pm because the fundamentals transfer over. The only thing that would probably give brawl players a hard time would be the different physics and mechanics, and more options to utilize

I have no idea what I'm talking about lol I'm just trying to sound smart

Lol, it's fine but your second sentence is basically what I was saying. I definitely think Brawl is a game that requires tech skill to be good, but it doesn't transfer well in some cases. Terotorus was saying that he had to adjust to hit stun. Every player is different, some have a natural knack for mechanics of games and others work hard and train at the game constantly (not that natural players don't either, it's just necessary for someone who isn't that type.)

 

[jtm94]

I didn't discredit Wizzy, and he is better than myself, but Sonic is still incredibly boring to watch, unless against a char he can drag across the floor and punish, like Falco. I think about every single move he is inputting, I do that when I watch any char play, I'm not one of the bad players who is like, Sonic only uses one move, or DownB and homing attack are the only moves he needs. I notice when he links and cancels SideB into stuff.

I really like how Soft summed up Zelda.

 

[Rawkobo]

The impression I always got is that Brawl players know more of the roster and how to do things with them, but Melee players have the better technical applications for the characters they play, which is why many of them stick to Falco/Marth/Shiek/sometimes Falcon, since they transition better.

There aren't really that many examples of players who were in the Melee scene playing something completely different in P:M. There's only a couple I can think of off the top of my head, one of them being Chillin since he decided to pick up Wolf (even though you can say he's not a hard character to get used to when you've been spending most of your years playing Fox in Melee), and Hbox playing Mario for most of his matchups nowadays (even though he will still go Jiggles sometimes).

There are a ton of Brawl players with similarly good applications that could get plenty better with more time put in. As a MD/VA boy, I'll definitely put in a good word for Pink Fresh/Seagull. They've adapted to the game really well and certainly know the characters they play.

Are they as good as they "need to be"? No clue. The skill ceiling in this mod is ridiculously different from any Smash title released to this date, and I agree with Jason that there are plenty (almost way too many at times) of characters with untapped potential.