Tier List Speculation

[Strong Badam]

That's a bunch of bull. L-cancelling and wavedashing are effortless. I NEVER played melee competitively, but I can do that simple crap effortlessly.

yeah pretty much. average/below average players like to pretend its somehow technically demanding to do either lol.

 

[fabulouspants]

ban fox....

 

[JOE!]

Ban fabulous pants. His pants are far too fabulous for the meta.

 

[Hylian]

I'm sorry to be rude to the newer players in this thread, but wavedashing and l-canceling are very basic technical things that no one should mess up. I learned how to do them fairly quickly, and after a while, applications such as buffering wavedash out of shield become second nature.

I'm pretty sure you can't buffer wavedash out of anything in Melee or PM >_>.

 

[Chesstiger2612]

The discussion about Link...
In my opinion Mew2King has problems with Link (with his Fox) because of the style he plays his Fox.
Against Link you need more of an aggressive Fox (like Mango) pressuring his shield to the maximum. If you play the control-style you will get hit by boomerangs and bombs and arrows and chains...
This is probably not an intuitive thing for Foxes with Melee background because Fox was so good you could go offensive or defensive and both worked normally. In PM there are some matchups where just one of those styles work and normally (mainly against floaties) the laserintensive control style does work better. Link, with his superior projectiles, is a character where you just have to go crazy if you have the chance to attack his shield. You have to play more commitive and although it would work, some players aren't used to it and try to play Fox as they normally do and complain about Link.
An example: Mew2King said in his post (which was very accurate for most parts except for the Link thing) he isn't able to punish his grab. This isn't because Mew2King is just flawing to do it (he is obviously too good to just fail to punish a grab with no reason) but because the action he did before. Assume he lasered just before. He probably has negligible horizontal momentum, needs a bit too land and then run up and punish. Together with the reaction time he said he would have, 14 frames (about average), this might be enough to spotdodge the incoming grab. But there are ways around that. If he wasn't lasering but jumping in (you obviously need a read for that because otherwise you will eat a sword spin) when the grab flaws you will be able to nair, or shine, or drillshine, or up-smash... It is not that Fox isn't able to punish Links grab, he has to be at least at an partial offensive stance before.
I don't think this is bad because requiring a read to punish it isn't what makes a move OP. Since Links grab isn't really a good option OoS and in many situations where grabs normally would be good I even see it as fair (in the sense of being OK with it, not referring to a forward-air) that punishing it needs at least some commitment.
Just my opinion about that Link's grab debate triggered by Mew2Kings post...

 

[The_NZA]

I didn't discredit Wizzy, and he is better than myself, but Sonic is still incredibly boring to watch, unless against a char he can drag across the floor and punish, like Falco. I think about every single move he is inputting, I do that when I watch any char play, I'm not one of the bad players who is like, Sonic only uses one move, or DownB and homing attack are the only moves he needs. I notice when he links and cancels SideB into stuff.

I really like how Soft summed up Zelda.

You haven't seen any videos of Darky (or however you spell his name), have you? That man is Wizzrobe 3.0.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Being good at Melee helps a lot more than being good at Brawl in Project M.

Keep telling yourself that. I'll just be over here, continuing to be bad at Melee. :3

I think that a lot of the general skills are largely interchangeable. This game makes for a better bridge between Melee and Brawl players than it's often suggested. It's one of my favorite parts about it.

 

[didds]

Pretty sure whether or not Brawl or Melee are a better start for P:M is purely subjective and based on the individual.

You could argue that tech might be easier if you started with melee, and I guess you could argue that a Brawl spacing game might translate better into P:M than melee's usual aggressive play. Or vice versa. I personally think that my history with pokemon blue is why it was easy for me to pick up P:M. How else would I know to water gun fire types?

 

[Terotrous]

Is it just me or is Kirby impossible to juggle
like literally impossible
It's awkward enough you have to have crazy disjoint to combo him a lot of the time because of ****ing nair
and he's floaty
but then on top of all that he has a get out of jail free card
who's the ****** that thought up that down-b
I've said this before but every time I play a Kirby it just reminds me how brain dead that character is
questions such as "How do I neutral game" are simply "dash the attack on the ground, dash the cutter in the air"
questions like "How do I not get comboed" are simply "nair, or down-b to return to neutral"
questions like "How do I recover" are simply "how can you possibly mess this up"

yeah it's incredible when you run so fast that your any move links into your any move and then if they go too high you run then up-b and hit them with your any move

Kirby is really strong IMO. I think he's secretly top tier.

 

[MLGF]

Personally, I thank KoF XIII for my Smash skills.
Seriously, APS in that game is cray-cray.

 

[Fish&Herbs19]

I'm pretty sure you can't buffer wavedash out of anything in Melee or PM >_>.

Meant to say buffer a jump out of shield and air dodge so that you can have crisp punishes on things such as a misspaced Marth's Forward Smash.

 

[roman5hero]

psh all my skills come from n64 smash. and no Kirby is med tier at best lol.

 

[Juker]

Does it seem like people who started out playing Brawl are on a mission to prove that Melee isn't technically demanding? Wavedashing and l-canceling were not second nature for anyone; we all had to practice them, and they have different timings on different characters and moves. There are moves for characters that getting the timing to be "just right" with your fast fall and delay on contact is not always easy and you see even pros mess it up. Watch someone who's really good at Fox play the game, and any time you see them get shield grabbed or punished from missing their shine after a shffled nair, you can probably bet they've messed up the timing on their l-cancel, fast fall, or spacing.

 

[Bleck]

Does it seem like people who started out playing Brawl are on a mission to prove that Melee isn't technically demanding?

No, but it does seem like Melee players have a persecution complex likely rooted in their skills at the game being one of very few sources of personal self-worth.

 

[Juker]

No, but it does seem like Melee players have a persecution complex likely rooted in their skills at the game being one of very few sources of personal self-worth.

I agree.

 

[fabulouspants]

thanks doctor bleck

 

[Bleck]

You're welcome.

 

[Soft Serve]

Most of us arent that bad
But bring it up on the melee facebook pages and prepare for a ****storm of ignorance, assholes, and trolls.
Wavedashing isnt even THAT amazing, its another tool and mobility option. People make a big deal about it, but it really doesnt change anything. If your spacing and mental games are weak to begin with, youll just eat a sword to the face when you start wavedashing in someone face regardless of your execution.
That said it is an incredible tool that most characters can utilize well, but using it as a basis of your skill is stupid, one because it is easy to begin with, and two it doesnt instantly make you god like. Most of the brawl players here in az that picked up pm had litterally zero issues picking up the ats, and then went around to utilize them in their already really strong smash fundamentals because they are good at smash to begin with.
But tiers guise

 

[Hylian]

Meant to say buffer a jump out of shield and air dodge so that you can have crisp punishes on things such as a misspaced Marth's Forward Smash.

You can't buffer jump except with the C stick(in melee only iirc) OoS which I really doubt you are doing and either case you can't buffer the airdodge so no something like that wouldn't work period. You are just timing it not buffering it.

 

[Fish&Herbs19]

You can't buffer jump except with the C stick(in melee only iirc) OoS which I really doubt you are doing and either case you can't buffer the airdodge so no something like that wouldn't work period. You are just timing it not buffering it.

I'm 99% sure that you can buffer a jump out of shield with the cstick in Project M. I know that you can't buffer the airdodge. I do this all the time in Melee and try to apply it more in Project M

Edit: On The PM page, it says you can't buffer cstick on the wifi safe set, implying that you can in the full set.

 

[jtm94]

You can buffer a jump, I hear it's useful for UpB out of shield as fast as is possible because of the buffer. Can you buffer smashes with the c-stick while rolling?

Link is pretty good, and by that i mean he is a lot of good. Playing slower chars I can't punish his grab if I'm just past how far it reaches, you just can't get to him in time. You have to either jump in his face or spot dodge the grab.I swear I get him by anything of Link's and I get grabbed, jab into grab, boomerang into grab, bomb into grab, it makes shielding/attacking his shield impossible at maximum range.

That's why I play Kirby and Squirtle so I can duck under his grab!!! #AntiLinkMovement

 

[NickRiddle]

Just be away from his hand and jump. Link's hand is the only thing that can grab people out of the air.
And he bodies Kirby, so that's a bad idea.

 

[jtm94]

Kirby and squirtle are the only characters I can beat my Link friend's Link with because he gets aggravated by ducking under grabs.

NAh, I can win with other chars, but I have to work wayyyyyy harder to get close.

 

[NickRiddle]

Too much grabbing, not enough ranging.

 

[roman5hero]

yeah link is Kirby's worst mu

 

[Terotrous]

And he bodies Kirby, so that's a bad idea.

Chu vs Laz seems to suggest otherwise.

 

[Hylian]

I'm 99% sure that you can buffer a jump out of shield with the cstick in Project M. I know that you can't buffer the airdodge. I do this all the time in Melee and try to apply it more in Project M

Edit: On The PM page, it says you can't buffer cstick on the wifi safe set, implying that you can in the full set.

Regardless, you WD OoS with the cstick?

 

[Soft Serve]

If kirby tries to have a neutral game Link just rangs through it. What Chu did was camp the ledge harder than M2k would have done, and forces laz into trying risky things and messed up his game. Link has trouble against people ledge stalling, but the fact that he has trouble against people staying on the ledge implies he has the ability to force them to that situation to begin with. That speaks volumes about the matchup imo.

 

[Plum]

Chu vs Laz seems to suggest otherwise.

I see Armada beat Fox all the time, so clearly Peach beats Fox, right?
poor logic is poor

 

[jtm94]

MUs aren't set in stone, I don't mind Kirby vs Link though Kirby is disadvantaged. I like it better than some of my other MUs with Link.

 

[Terotrous]

If kirby tries to have a neutral game Link just rangs through it. What Chu did was camp the ledge harder than M2k would have done, and forces laz into trying risky things and messed up his game. Link has trouble against people ledge stalling, but the fact that he has trouble against people staying on the ledge implies he has the ability to force them to that situation to begin with. That speaks volumes about the matchup imo.

Chu did go toe to toe with Link at various points during that set, though. Kirby's pretty mobile and his aerials come out really fast, I think he can get around the rang.

I see Armada beat Fox all the time, so clearly Peach beats Fox, right?

It doesn't necessarily prove Peach beats Fox, but it does suggest it's not 8-2 Fox or something.

 

[roman5hero]

no laz just didn't know how to counter it. link has a ton of ways to hurt a ledge stall Kirby

 

[Fenrir VII]

I can second that Link bodies Kirby pretty hard if the Link player knows what he's doing...

 

[Strong Badam]

Keep telling yourself that. I'll just be over here, continuing to be bad at Melee. :3

I think that a lot of the general skills are largely interchangeable. This game makes for a better bridge between Melee and Brawl players than it's often suggested. It's one of my favorite parts about it.

If you couldn't literally pick a 2001 character and do exactly the same things without adapting at all, I'd agree that neither games skillsets necessarily prepare one better for Project M. The fundamentals in both games are extremely similar. What matters more in most cases is the inclination to learn new things, not the actual knowledge of said things, as well. Haven't met a Brawl-turned-PM player who doesn't L-cancel/Wavedash/DD/CC/edgehog without a second thought.

 

[Rᴏb]

yeah link is Kirby's worst mu

How many characters can you replace "Kirby" with and have this sentence still make sense?

 

[roman5hero]

How many characters can you replace "Kirby" with and have this sentence still make sense?

don't know, I main Kirby not link but I fear marth players more on average they are better at keeping me out. that chain grab that leads into a tipper f smash that leaves you Kirby at like 70 also sends fear into the soul of Kirby

 

[DrinkingFood]

roman5hero he was talking about link not Kirby I think

 

[Strong Badam]

I see Armada beat Fox all the time, so clearly Peach beats Fox, right?
poor logic is poor

People hate actually thinking

 

[Giga-Bowser]

If you couldn't literally pick a 2001 character and do exactly the same things without adapting at all, I'd agree that neither games skillsets necessarily prepare one better for Project M. The fundamentals in both games are extremely similar. What matters more in most cases is the inclination to learn new things, not the actual knowledge of said things, as well. Haven't met a Brawl-turned-PM player who doesn't L-cancel/Wavedash/DD/CC/edgehog without a second thought.

Brawl players can adapt to pm, but It's pretty self-evident that melee skills carry over much better. All of the best melee players are the best pm players, and almost every top 3 at every tourney is someone who got good through melee. As someone who's bad at both games looking in from the outside it really looks like it's the brawl players who have the complex/insecurity here. Brawl players may not want to hear it, but it seems like some kind of weird smash bros political correctness to say otherwise. Melee has been around longer and has a bigger scene than brawl. The competition is more intense behind that game (which itself is more difficult) and thus better players came out of it. Exceptions happen - brawl players and unknowns sometimes make waves, but they are outliers to the norm and shouldn't be taken as serious evidence of anything other than that they found a gimmick or are talented players.

I don't know if some of you have a grudge or are just envious of m2k or something, but what he said makes pretty good sense to me. It doesn't matter if Links grab takes a full second to do, if the second best fox player can't punish it that's something that should be discussed. Derailing the thread for pages over it is counterproductive, especially from the Site's admin. Some even suggested that m2k and the other top players aren't even that good, and that they've been carried by their characters. Don't know if they're trolling but like come on.

The melee top tiers don't need more nerfs, it just looks that way because they've been optimized for over a decade. Those changes will throw everyone off, make the mod feel less stable, and discourage the large melee player base. They are good characters, yes, but so are a whole cast of new unexplored characters. This is actually one of the best times to just get good at the game instead of complaining, because you have half the cast to develop and optimize. Ganon, Olimar, Game and watch, Jiggly, and IC's probably do need help. There are other cases like Squirtle, Zelda or ZSS that may or may not tweaks, and that's what I think this thread should be more about.

 

[MysteryRevengerson]

Brawl-turned-PM player who doesn't L-cancel/Wavedash/DD/CC/edgehog without a second thought.

I mean, this kinda takes a while to develop compared to someone used to the mechanics in their original game. As far as your claim goes, I honestly don't think it's THAT tough to do those, outside of Crouch Cancel I can do those without thinking to do it, and I'm far from a good player.