Tier List Speculation

[C_Mill24]

As of 3.02, Kirby is probably one of the worst characters despite his changes from Brawl.

 

[PsionicSabreur]

Pika's a little underrated, I think, but not much. Between uair, dair, QA at the ledge, and even wavebouncing thunder his offstage game is decent.
His damage-racking ability is pretty inadequate, though, and even with usmash's great knockback and speed, it isn't really a bread and butter followup to anything except throws at not-quite-KO percent, leaving him with few efficient KO options onstage if he misses the quick gimp or 70ish percent KO.

 

[Soft Serve]

I couldn't disagree more, Kirby is a monster. He essentially has melee sheiks d-throw, as well as a DI mix-up on back throw. DI the d-throw up or behind kirby, its a free uptilt/regrab/aerial, DI down and away its a tech chase. DI the backthrow with proper DI for d-throw, and he gets a combo. His tech chases are phenomenal, decent neutral game, incredible offstage game, punishes everything ridiculously hard and isn't punished as hard in return.

 

[foxygrandpa]

Honestly, the melee characters are all around top tier, even with all of their slight nerfs. I think that the best pm original characters are probably lucas, mario, snake and pit. It seems to me like the majority of the other characters need small tweaks.

 

[Cassio]

Pikas offstage game is decent but in every other game it was his shinning feature. And yeah use to have grab to U-smash/f-smash if you could read correctly on DI but no more.

QAC is pronounced quack, right?

I mean pikachu retains its melee status of a decent counter to spacies, so he'll see some play

Problem is that's what people were essentially saying for a verrrry long time. It's melee pika with 64 bair and qac. That's it. I don't see him going anywhere

Hes definitely worse than melee. Pikas offstage game in melee is reliable that you could expect to get a gimp or two most games which was important vs spacies. In PM you are lucky to.

 

[Deleted member]

He's worse in the sense that there are many more characters who are better than him now than there were in Melee. Compared solely to Melee Pikachu, however, he is strictly better.

 

[Nguz95]

Snake is a beast. C4 combos for days.

 

[Cassio]

He's worse in the sense that there are many more characters who are better than him now than there were in Melee. Compared solely to Melee Pikachu, however, he is strictly better.

No trust me, I play pika in every game. His considerably weaker grab game and inability to gimp well make him worse than any buffs he mightve been given in PM compared to melee.

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

As of 3.02, Kirby is probably one of the worst characters despite his changes from Brawl.

Really? Why? It seems to me that he's above average.

 

[Deleted member]

I find it hard to believe that the PMBR would directly make his grab game or his gimp game worse. As far as I know, the only past issue there was with replicating Melee Pikachu involved QA, and that has been much improved in 3.0. Everything else is the same or better than Melee.

 

[Soft Serve]

Cassio What weaker grab game do you mean? If you mean he can't chaingrab 3/7 of the common tourney characters into up-smash then yes, its weaker in comparison. And just because characters have better recoveries doesn't equate and inability to gimp. While characters have more options in recovering, Pikachu can still cover most of them and go off stage better than most of the cast. I'm certain that a tail-spike is still incredibly devastating on most of the cast, bar maybe DDD who tanks semi-spikes like a man.

I'm not disagreeing that pikachu isn't in a bad spot, I'm just not sure we have the same reasonings. Pikachu's problems in the neutral game and difficulty converting every hit into a stock on non-fast fallers still haunt him in Melee, and they carried over with him to PM.

 

[PsionicSabreur]

If you placed Melee and P:M Pika in a matchup, or P:M Pika in Melee, then P:M Pika would be comparatively better, since there haven't been any direct nerfs to the character (at least not that I know of). The weaker gimp and grab game mostly stem from Pika's skillset just not working very well against a bigger slice of the (expanded) viable cast. For example, floaties with good recovery make uair look reasonably lame. This was the case in Melee, but it really didn't apply to a whole lot of characters that posed a threat otherwise.

I'd suppose the weaker grab game is similar in that the characters you normally want to usmash tend to slip out of uthrow or dthrow quite easily unless you follow with a low-reward move like uair or nair instead.

 

[pikmin.org]

even with usmash's great knockback and speed, it isn't really a bread and butter followup to anything except throws at not-quite-KO percent, leaving him with few efficient KO options onstage if he misses the quick gimp or 70ish percent KO.

Pikachu can combo U-Smash from a N-Air at percents that kill against a lot of characters. I think F-Air can even combo into U-Smash.

 

[Cassio]

Soft Serve, you have to realize too even if upsmash after uthrow was good, even on characters he couldnt the position that they were in was much better to convert more damage from than what he has in PM.

The game doesnt translate 1:1 on the mechanics either. So now the problem is, you cant even do it as well to the traditional melee cast either. Also, I dont think it was intentionally nerfed, but the overall affect is its worse overall (not just on specific characters).

This is snake instead so grain of salt, but these are situations where in melee it wouldve likely resulted in death.
http://youtu.be/W_2VFIzoIMU?t=14m31s
http://youtu.be/W_2VFIzoIMU?t=14m
http://youtu.be/W_2VFIzoIMU?t=14m13s

 

[Ripple]

except in melee the most likely equivalent to snake's up-b is yoshi's DJ armor, and that wouldn't have killed there either

 

[Cassio]

Thats why I said grain of salt, but I think several weaker recoveries wouldve been fine too. I did talk to anther briefly about how pika couldnt gimp well anymore, honestly I think anyone who's played pika in both games wouldnt disagree.

 

[Sunnysunny]

I kinda wanna analyze invidual match ups.
Like, are there any people out there that know there main well enough to name what some of there bad MU's are? Just outta curiosity of course.

I know a lot of Ivys hate the Falcon match up and that's about it. :T

 

[Ogopogo]

I couldn't disagree more, Kirby is a monster. He essentially has melee sheiks d-throw, as well as a DI mix-up on back throw. DI the d-throw up or behind kirby, its a free uptilt/regrab/aerial, DI down and away its a tech chase. DI the backthrow with proper DI for d-throw, and he gets a combo. His tech chases are phenomenal, decent neutral game, incredible offstage game, punishes everything ridiculously hard and isn't punished as hard in return.

He's also incredibly fun/janky. I don't understand his low(ish[ish]) placings in recent tier lists.

 

[A Legend In The Making]

I think Pika is better than u guys say he is, he can really run circles around the whole cast and his QaC is enough to disrupt any character in the game. Don't count our little pokemon out!

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

He's also incredibly fun/janky. I don't understand his low(ish[ish]) placings in recent tier lists.

Kirby has jigg's bair, charizard's nair, and pika's spike uair
Not only is he good, but he's so damn fun

And a broken dash attack

 

[Hylian]

Well I was responding to something else, I didnt mean to cause this stir-up.

Well said, I agree.

I
These are only my opinions and experiences, and also if you played before the japanese won Apex, I could see your point and would agree. It's mainly based on what Ive heard from the good brawl players, and on a personal level I went from doing very poorly to winning a tournament in an area that takes the game pretty seriously after barely playing the game. Compared to Brawl, approaching and hit strings are significantly easier. If you could approach and string in brawl, its not as difficult to do in PM and unlike melee the technical skill isnt really that big a barrier. There are more MUs to learn, but at the same time theyre easier to learn because of how close MUs are, so theory crafting I find is a bit simpler. I personally thought consistent buffering (i.e. japanese/top level player degree) was harder but I wont get into that. However, I dont mean to confuse this with saying that I think the game is simple or easy.

I stopped playing soon after the japanese came to america. I played Rain and Kakera in money matches and beat both of them, haven't played the others though I always enjoyed watching them much more than americans. I won't argue your other points because it won't lead anywhere meaningful.

 

[Fish&Herbs19]

Well if anyone wants to talk about individual matchups, here is my take on a couple. I feel that Olimar is a soft counter to Link, Young Link and Samus. Olimar's Pikmin can neutralize if not beat out any of their projectiles. None of these characters can apply intense shield pressure, which is what normally hurts Olimar the most. These matchups feel pretty strongly in favor of Olimar.

Discussion?

 

[shadow0x0cloud]

PIkachu is probably lower mid at best, her kill moves are unreliable, mainly becuase they revolve around severely out playing your opponent, something that doesnt happen to often in competetive play. In Melee where you could QA from the ledge to snipe jumps or go really deep offstage were really good gimps. With the better recoveries in PM, the low percent gimps Pika thrived off of are practically no existant. Her grab sucks balls. Not even the throws themselves but its range. A character with normals as stubby as mario has an equally stubby grab. Not to mention her dash attack and dash grab give so much time for punishment.

I keep seeing people mention QAC like its good in nuetral. Its a 20+ fram move iirc so youre easily reacting to it, and you can get hit in between the dashes because its priority is terrible. Wavelanding out of QAC is almost worthless because you have now added 10(?) frames to an already obvious move. Unfortunately, even if you do happen to get a QAC, it leads to no reward unless you use it to continue a combo. Its not even like Fox/Falco side b where if it hits you can go for a combo afterwards.

Even with all that said, she has a good run speed and can do wavedash feints a la sheik. She juggles you in the air like marth / zss. She just has really low damage and predictable, almost flow chart paths into her kill moves.

 

[jtm94]

Pikachu is a guy.

But I agree with what shadow said. Pikachu requires more technical input for an output equal to that of other, easier characters. Pikachu is not only sort of difficult to use, but is SHUT DOWN by ranged or disjointed moves, which there are more of.

Sure he has some janky combo options all consisting of uair which only does 4% and will be stale by the end of the combo, but the damage doesn't get put on nearly fast enough to ensure KOs and gimping is very risky with Pika, outside of Neutral B.

 

[SmashShadow]

^Pikachu is a guy. Look at his tail.

Edit: Super Ninja'd

Edit #2: Doesn't up air do 7%. I know they increased it from Melee.

 

[Paradoxium]

PIkachu is probably lower mid at best, her kill moves are unreliable, mainly becuase they revolve around severely out playing your opponent, something that doesnt happen to often in competetive play. In Melee where you could QA from the ledge to snipe jumps or go really deep offstage were really good gimps. With the better recoveries in PM, the low percent gimps Pika thrived off of are practically no existant. Her grab sucks balls. Not even the throws themselves but its range. A character with normals as stubby as mario has an equally stubby grab. Not to mention her dash attack and dash grab give so much time for punishment.

I keep seeing people mention QAC like its good in nuetral. Its a 20+ fram move iirc so youre easily reacting to it, and you can get hit in between the dashes because its priority is terrible. Wavelanding out of QAC is almost worthless because you have now added 10(?) frames to an already obvious move. Unfortunately, even if you do happen to get a QAC, it leads to no reward unless you use it to continue a combo. Its not even like Fox/Falco side b where if it hits you can go for a combo afterwards.

Even with all that said, she has a good run speed and can do wavedash feints a la sheik. She juggles you in the air like marth / zss. She just has really low damage and predictable, almost flow chart paths into her kill moves.

QaC is worth it, highly useful move. Your opponents don't expect it, and when you throw it out they dont know where your going, you could also cancel it directly into a nair/bair, not only that but your could also cancel it onto a platform and immediately react out of it with any air options. You could also jump out of it, giving you all his air options in a new position. Its one of the best mix ups because it also deals damage and makes your opponents flinch. QaC is very useful, thats why we always bring it up. You could apply some pretty scary shield pressure when you mix QaC with shffling

And a lot of people in the cast still get gimped by Uair, shockwave, and reverse thunder. Recoveries in this game are good, but once your below stage pikachu can gimp a lot of people. And tail spike sends them below stage, so really he can still gimp people.

And one thing Pikachu has is speed, and in this game movement is key. He has an amazing Dash Dance along with decent run speed, he could also use shockwave to help approach and also use quick attack for a mix up. Pikachu's grab range is terrible, but the throws themselves are useful, and Pikachu does have some chaingrabs on a few characters. And ive found that Pikachu can shffl through shields, which is also very useful.

His smash attacks are all pretty good, i find his Dsmash to be the most useful. His up smash+thunder kills pretty fast, and his Fsmash is kinda slow but it does a lot of damage.

And Pikachu is able to chase you down, so his combo's don't suck as much as everyone makes them sound.

I dont main pika anymore, but he is very good. I think hes in the top half if you ask me.

 

[deadjames]

QaC>Thunder = best mixup ever. I can't even count how many surprise kills I've gotten with it.

 

[Cassio]

Mostly agree with shadow, success with pika only comes from greatly outplaying your opponent with pseudo-combos. I would only add its especially annoying that after having such a hard time landing grabs he's barely rewarded for it, even though its crucial to his success because his movement makes grabs an important part of his game. QAC could be used better, but its not the saving grace people think it is for reasons shadow mentioned. And his offstage game is just mediocre, cant call it bad but compared to what pika is in other games really makes him not pika ;[

Glad Im not the only one who thinks this though, seems like its a pretty common opinion
http://smashboards.com/threads/best-and-worst-designed-characters.345629/

 

[Problem2]

Pikachu can true combo u-smash into Thunder against most of the cast, effectively putting everyone at kill percent at around 50%. No one notices this?

 

[Paradoxium]

Pikachu can true combo u-smash into Thunder against most of the cast, effectively putting everyone at kill percent at around 50%. No one notices this?

Unfortunately no one notices it, they will go on believing pikachu is trash, and once a really good play comes along and wins with pikachu, they are all going to change their minds in a heartbeat. The pattern I've seen is that every time someone says a character sucks, they get proven wrong. Remember when we all thought DDD was the worst in the game?

 

[Ripple]

well, DDD is one of the worst characters in the game.

 

[deadjames]

Pikachu can true combo u-smash into Thunder against most of the cast, effectively putting everyone at kill percent at around 50%. No one notices this?

Thunder actually doesn't kill off the top until relatively high percents depending on your opponent's fall speed. The only characters that might die that early would probably be like Puff, Ivy, and Zelda.

 

[GP&B]

I don't think anyone's minds are actually changed about D3 still. He's not the worst, but he's certainly not turning any heads. People want to say the same about Ness but he's certainly going nowhere either.

 

[Sashimi]

If Pikachu is low tier, then I must say the PMBR is doing an excellent job...

 

[Fish&Herbs19]

The PMBR has done an amazing job balancing the cast considering that the entire cast, even characters like D3, Ness or Pikachu are capable of getting top 8 at large, national tournaments.

 

[Iceman]

PIkachu is probably lower mid at best, her kill moves are unreliable, mainly becuase they revolve around severely out playing your opponent, something that doesnt happen to often in competetive play. In Melee where you could QA from the ledge to snipe jumps or go really deep offstage were really good gimps. With the better recoveries in PM, the low percent gimps Pika thrived off of are practically no existant. Her grab sucks balls. Not even the throws themselves but its range. A character with normals as stubby as mario has an equally stubby grab. Not to mention her dash attack and dash grab give so much time for punishment.

I keep seeing people mention QAC like its good in nuetral. Its a 20+ fram move iirc so youre easily reacting to it, and you can get hit in between the dashes because its priority is terrible. Wavelanding out of QAC is almost worthless because you have now added 10(?) frames to an already obvious move. Unfortunately, even if you do happen to get a QAC, it leads to no reward unless you use it to continue a combo. Its not even like Fox/Falco side b where if it hits you can go for a combo afterwards.

Even with all that said, she has a good run speed and can do wavedash feints a la sheik. She juggles you in the air like marth / zss. She just has really low damage and predictable, almost flow chart paths into her kill moves.

Pikachu is a guy....

 

[Ripple]

its one thing to have your text color a eye-bleeding color of blue, but to change someone else's text to that shade is just cruel

 

[Cassio]

The PMBR has done an amazing job balancing the cast considering that the entire cast, even characters like D3, Ness or Pikachu are capable of getting top 8 at large, national tournaments.

Its not so much about balance or tier placement, the bigger issue is traits that have belonged to pikachu in every other smash game are not there in PM, making him weaker and awkward. Although I disagree about the top 8 thing regarding pika.

 

[CyberZixx]

Pikachu sucks. I firmly believed him to be the worst character in 2.6. 3.0 is too new for me to make that claim. I think giving him a better grab game would be a nice start. More range and make dthrow better for combos and bthrow better for kills.

 

[deadjames]

Its not so much about balance or tier placement, the bigger issue is traits that have belonged to pikachu in every other smash game are not there in PM, making him weaker and awkward. Although I disagree about the top 8 thing regarding pika.

He's exactly the same as Melee, just better because he actually has a good bair and he can QaC.