Tier List Speculation

[Thane of Blue Flames]

I'm interested in the mechanics of the Arty vortex. Is it intentional? Is it pretty much a glitch?

 

[Nguz95]

I'd say it was intentional. The way I understand it, this was also present in Brawl, so the PMBR kept it. It only exists because nair has a lot of auto-cancel frames. Every aerial has auto-cacnel frames, but this move has more than average.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

Got it, thanks. I think I've seen auto-cancels on other aerials, but that's before the hitboxes come out usually. Or barely come out.

 

[DMG]

They intentionally buffed his Nair. First hit links into the second better, and the auto cancel window on the move is veryyyy early.

It really doesn't change much once you know the surprise value. If Ganon is using the second kick of Nair for spacing in neutral, that's a lot of free time from when he started jumping, to when his kick is over, for you to deal with it. At worst, the other person will have to back up or reconsider their positioning.

 

[Nguz95]

Perhaps. That doesn't change that the move covers a lot of area while have very little endlag. I would say that the vortex is big buff to Ganon's neutral game. You can't just throw it out whenever, but you definitely can use it instead of the Melee approaches, which weren't even safe to begin with.

 

[Oro?!]

You have to play against Arty to truly experience what is actually going on. You can't ever predict what he will do, and Arty doesn't even know what will happen. It's basically RNG the game.

 

[Mr.Pickle]

Yeah all of ganon's aerials have fairly decent auto cancel windows, makes him a tid bit safer.

 

[Kaeldiar]

Apex: The Awakening.

Apex is going to be a big tell as to this tier list. I'm going to watch as much as I can and post a tier list after that

EDIT: As a Link main, I can say that few players use him to his full potential. He's not top tier, but he's pretty good, and much better than people realize. The long time Link users are going to show at Apex that he's definitely in the top half of the game.

As I've said before (or similarly), I think Squirtle and Ness are going to be bottom tier from usage issues. Lucas is leagues beyond Ness, and Squirtle has "functional clones" in Pikachu and Mario that are simply better than him. Players are going to master the better characters, and Ness and Squirtle aren't going to get the time they need for mastery.

Also, I think Pseudomaniac has the best tier list so far. Apex will answer some big questions, but I think he has a very good place to start.

 

[Yung Mei]

im still amazed by people putting GNW on the bottom of their tier lists

 

[Nguz95]

The man is mid-tier at best...

 

[ss118]

It's funny how people don't think squirtle is in the bottom 1 slot.

 

[Kokomaniac]

I don't get the argument on ness, ness has always had a pretty dedicated community although small

 

[ss118]

Because people like earthbound.

 

[leelue]

Well, what you described just sounds a lot like Ganon's side b tech chases. Unfortunately on a FFer aerial side b doesn't get guaranteed follow ups until high percen

There is no growth on ganon's aerial side b slam. Either it combos or it doesn't.
Source: Training mode 999 damage

--
Also, ganon's nair is not very disjointed at all
It's basically near his feet

 

[DMG]

They should consider giving that growth. The only downside is that he would lose strong hits on floaties at higher %. Then again, with growth he might be able to just Usmash them at 50-60 anyways

 

[Kokomaniac]

Meh well I started maining ness when I didn't even know what earthbound was

 

[Spiffykins]

There is no growth on ganon's aerial side b slam. Either it combos or it doesn't.
Source: Training mode 999 damage

--
Also, ganon's nair is not very disjointed at all
It's basically near his feet

Good to know.

 

[NeonApophis]

I've played a lot of really good lucas players(oracle/calabrel when he played lucas/various other good ones) and he was one of my mains/best characters from 2.1 -> 3.0 and my thoughts on the character have not really changed much, he's just overrated. He does not have the ability to 0-death off most hits, that is grossly exaggerated with proper DI/SDI and CC. He's a great character I just think he has a good amount of match-ups he struggles with a lot(like Link for example ) and when you understand what he is doing and what he wants he becomes much easier to play against. He's absurdly susceptible to grab combos against most of the cast and is very easy to combo/edgeguard in general. I think his neutral game being worse than spacies is what sets him so far away from them in my eyes, they are more resilient, have better anti-pressure options as well as better pressure options imo(sorry, lucas magnet is not comparable to shine). There are just things you can abuse against lucas in a lot of match-ups that keep him from being top tier. That being said he's still really amazing and I think he's interchangeable with the 3 characters above him on my tier list.

Play me at some tournament and I'll show you how the character can be abused, I don't think I've failed at that yet playing against lucas players. Maybe I'm just really good against the character because I've played him so much but *shrugs* those are my impressions.

I actually agree with most of what you're saying, I just don't think the weaknesses you mention are enough to move him out of top tier; they just keep him balanced so that he isn't totally broken. I think his ability to 0-death is greater than Fox or Falco's, even though they both have easier combos. There are just more opportunities to tech against Fox and Falco whereas Lucas can combo with juggles that are much harder to escape. I do agree that his neutral game is worse than spacies, but not by too much. Lucas's main disadvantages are that he doesn't have a sex kick, has lower priority than spacies on most of his aerials, and magnet doesn't come out as fast as shine. But he also is capable of doing safer pressure, such as aerial magnet to retreating DJC aerial or just wavelanding out of the magnet. Magnet pressure is also safer on shield than anything Fox and Falco can do, both in terms of frame advantage and safe spacing options, since he can move while doing multimagnets (or just two in most cases) and move with DJC aerials out of a magnet. Magnet is really overrated in general, but it's still excellent even though shine is significantly better.

Here are 5 games of me doing combos from tonight's tournament if you want to see why I think he's so good: http://www.twitch.tv/azprojectmelee/b/494592723?t=1h53m30s
2:04:40 in that video is a good example of the sort of juggles I was referring to.
Obviously most opponents have suboptimal DI, but my Lucas is still not very well developed and I have a lot of room to improve my combos to account for their DI. Also, you can't CC the release hitbox of magnet.

But yeah, it's easier for us to just play. I'll be at Apex so we can play there at some point. I think Link is really cool and it seems like he has a pretty decent match up against Lucas, so I'm sure it will be interesting.

 

[Hylian]

Sadly I'm not going to Apex this year, maybe next year or at some other big tournament. I went to Magfest instead this year. I've seen you play a good amount already, I've watched videos of all the lucas players because I helped work on him quite a bit and I played him for quite some time so I kept up with everything . DJC may be safer on shield but that doesn't mean it's quite better at pressureing, you can do 1 rep and then they can wavedash OoS safely or roll etc where as spacies pressure while riskier is just as risky for the person trying to punish OoS because the window is so small and they cover rolls better than lucas does. I think lucas's reliance on wavedashing as opposed to spacies use of dash dancing is what gives them the edge in the neutral game more than anything.

 

[leelue]

The only downside is that he would lose strong hits on floaties at higher %. Then again, with growth he might be able to just Usmash them at 50-60 anyways

That's a weird way to spell
'The only downside would be that he loses his balls to the wall guaranteed grab > death-producing-aerial on floaties"

 

[NeonApophis]

Sadly I'm not going to Apex this year, maybe next year or at some other big tournament. I went to Magfest instead this year. I've seen you play a good amount already, I've watched videos of all the lucas players because I helped work on him quite a bit and I played him for quite some time so I kept up with everything . DJC may be safer on shield but that doesn't mean it's quite better at pressureing, you can do 1 rep and then they can wavedash OoS safely or roll etc where as spacies pressure while riskier is just as risky for the person trying to punish OoS because the window is so small and they cover rolls better than lucas does. I think lucas's reliance on wavedashing as opposed to spacies use of dash dancing is what gives them the edge in the neutral game more than anything.

I think Lucas's dash dance is really good, but I also think of wavedashing as part of the DD game since it's just another ground movement option. Optimal Lucas shield pressure is definitely the best. Aerial magnet is +6 on shield, and you can do nearly safe shield pressure with a combination of grounded and aerial magnets. If you've ever seen the Lucas TAS shield pressure video, there is an accompanying guide that explains the pressure and frame advantages at various points in the strings. My pressure is really suboptimal, but it's actually not super difficult to do multimagnet on shield. One of the big things that makes me think Lucas is top tier is that he is still very unexplored and no one is really good with him yet, but he can already do so much.

I would also point out that my Lucas has been improving very rapidly. Obviously you don't have to watch my videos, but there is a lot of new and improved stuff in my recent matches, especially compared to what I was doing one or two months ago.

 

[Hylian]

I think Lucas's dash dance is really good, but I also think of wavedashing as part of the DD game since it's just another ground movement option. Optimal Lucas shield pressure is definitely the best. Aerial magnet is +6 on shield, and you can do nearly safe shield pressure with a combination of grounded and aerial magnets. If you've ever seen the Lucas TAS shield pressure video, there is an accompanying guide that explains the pressure and frame advantages at various points in the strings. My pressure is really suboptimal, but it's actually not super difficult to do multimagnet on shield. One of the big things that makes me think Lucas is top tier is that he is still very unexplored and no one is really good with him yet, but he can already do so much.

I would also point out that my Lucas has been improving very rapidly. Obviously you don't have to watch my videos, but there is a lot of new and improved stuff in my recent matches, especially compared to what I was doing one or two months ago.

I was watching the stream lol.

 

[NeonApophis]

Oh, haha. Yeah. I had no idea how Olimar works, but I was pretty happy with all the other matches.

 

[trash?]

Fox 5.81481481481482
Falco 5.68518518518518
Meta Knight 5.31481481481482
Shiek 5.25925925925926
Wolf 5.05555555555556
Mario 5.05555555555556
Lucas 4.85185185185185
Marth 4.62962962962963
Diddy Kong 4.48148148148148
Peach 4.46296296296296
Snake 4.38888888888889
Wario 4.37037037037037
Pit 4.35185185185185
Ivysaur 4.27777777777778
Yoshi 4.27777777777778
Captain Falcon 3.94444444444444
Mewtwo 3.90740740740741
Zero Suit Samus 3.83333333333333
Link 3.81481481481482
Ike 3.77777777777778
Lucario 3.75925925925926
Kirby 3.75925925925926
Bowser 3.46296296296296
Ice Climbers 3.42592592592593
Roy 3.42592592592593
ROB 3.40740740740741
Samus 3.37037037037037
Donkey Kong 3.35185185185185
Sonic 3.33333333333333
*Zelda 3.2962962962963
Jigglypuff 3.2962962962963
Charizard 3.22222222222222
Luigi 3.11111111111111
Toon Link 2.94444444444444
Pikachu 2.87037037037037
Ness 2.81481481481482
King Dedede 2.77777777777778
Mr. Game & Watch 2.46296296296296
Ganondorf 2.42592592592593
Squirtle 2.35185185185185
Olimar 2.27777777777778
*there's no brawl zelda icon. there's a melee zelda icon and then a slightly smaller melee zelda icon it's dumb

here's all the numbers
I'm mad that GnW is so LOW. like dakpo is currently in the top 10 in 2013 tourney stats c'mon

 

[Nguz95]

The community has spoken. Ganondorf will rise again to threaten Hyrule.
Edit: It's interesting to note how quickly the cumulative scores fall after the first few characters. I think that shows some variance in responses for most characters below top tier.

 

[mYzeALot]

That is awesome Canon. A lot of it looks pretty accurate overall to me, other than a few tiny changes that I myself would make.

 

[DMG]

Canon: Awestin is also in the top 10 tourney stats IIRC, and he's Ness who's rated almost as low as G&W. DARK TIMES FOR BAD CHARACTERS

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

The relationship between tourney results and tier lists has never been obvious to me, tbf.

 

[DMG]

Tournament results + potential = tier list

 

[Deleted member]

Canon: Awestin is also in the top 10 tourney stats IIRC, and he's Ness who's rated almost as low as G&W. DARK TIMES FOR BAD CHARACTERS

"THE BEST P:M REGION IN THE WORLD PLAYS A BUNCH OF LOW TIERS"
Mhm, I love that title.

 

[Nguz95]

The video gave me more seizures than Electric Soldier Porygon...

 

[Oro?!]

Who was that wondrous ZSS in that video?

 

[KayB]

The lack of a brawl Zelda icon bothers me.

 

[Vashimus]

People love to stroke that Mario pipe, don't they?

 

[Strong Badam]

marth is still my favorite low tier

 

[Dakpo]

Marth needs to be higher IMO. Low tier city represent!

 

[9bit]

I took Canon's numbers and broke up the list into some Tiers based just on the numbers and their differences. Check it out.

Spoiler: Canon Tier List by whole number

A Tier (5+)
Fox 5.81481481481482
Falco 5.68518518518518
Meta Knight 5.31481481481482
Shiek 5.25925925925926
Wolf 5.05555555555556
Mario 5.05555555555556

B Tier (4 - 4.9)
Lucas 4.85185185185185
Marth 4.62962962962963
Diddy Kong 4.48148148148148
Peach 4.46296296296296
Snake 4.38888888888889
Wario 4.37037037037037
Pit 4.35185185185185
Ivysaur 4.27777777777778
Yoshi 4.27777777777778

C Tier (3 - 3.9)
Captain Falcon 3.94444444444444
Mewtwo 3.90740740740741
Zero Suit Samus 3.83333333333333
Link 3.81481481481482
Ike 3.77777777777778
Lucario 3.75925925925926
Kirby 3.75925925925926
Bowser 3.46296296296296
Ice Climbers 3.42592592592593
Roy 3.42592592592593
ROB 3.40740740740741
Samus 3.37037037037037
Donkey Kong 3.35185185185185
Sonic 3.33333333333333
Zelda 3.2962962962963
Jigglypuff 3.2962962962963
Charizard 3.22222222222222

Luigi Tier (3.1 - 3.11111111111111)
Luigi 3.11111111111111

D Tier (2 - 2.9)
Toon Link 2.94444444444444
Pikachu 2.87037037037037
Ness 2.81481481481482
King Dedede 2.77777777777778
Mr. Game & Watch 2.46296296296296
Ganondorf 2.42592592592593
Squirtle 2.35185185185185
Olimar 2.27777777777778

Spoiler: Canon Tier List by biggest gaps

I took all the numbers and subtracted each one from the one above it to see which places had the biggest gaps. A drop of 0.37 from A Tier to B Tier means that the difference between Falco's number and Meta Knight's number is 0.37 (which is actually the biggest drop on the list -- Spacies be top tier yo). Then I just took the 5 biggest drops and separated the Tiers that way.

A Tier
Fox 5.81481481481482
Falco 5.68518518518518

B Tier - Drop of 0.37
Meta Knight 5.31481481481482
Shiek 5.25925925925926
Wolf 5.05555555555556
Mario 5.05555555555556
Lucas 4.85185185185185

C Tier - Drop of 0.22
Marth 4.62962962962963
Diddy Kong 4.48148148148148
Peach 4.46296296296296
Snake 4.38888888888889
Wario 4.37037037037037
Pit 4.35185185185185
Ivysaur 4.27777777777778
Yoshi 4.27777777777778

D Tier - Drop of 0.33
Captain Falcon 3.94444444444444
Mewtwo 3.90740740740741
Zero Suit Samus 3.83333333333333
Link 3.81481481481482
Ike 3.77777777777778
Lucario 3.75925925925926
Kirby 3.75925925925926

D Tier - Drop of 0.3
Bowser 3.46296296296296
Ice Climbers 3.42592592592593
Roy 3.42592592592593
ROB 3.40740740740741
Samus 3.37037037037037
Donkey Kong 3.35185185185185
Sonic 3.33333333333333
*Zelda 3.2962962962963
Jigglypuff 3.2962962962963
Charizard 3.22222222222222
Luigi 3.11111111111111
Toon Link 2.94444444444444
Pikachu 2.87037037037037
Ness 2.81481481481482
King Dedede 2.77777777777778

E Tier - Drop of 0.31
Mr. Game & Watch 2.46296296296296
Ganondorf 2.42592592592593
Squirtle 2.35185185185185
Olimar 2.27777777777778

 

[Strong Badam]

#lowtierhero #dkforlowtier

 

[Denti]

Right now I would say that like 10 tournaments in this system leave it way open. Apex will be the truth

 

[DiSQO_BuNNY]

I don't agree with that list at all. At least not the bottom half