Tier List Speculation

[trash?]

I still think it's an exaggeration, mostly because his vortex (can someone please upload that arty match to YT so I don't have to keep linking to a several hour long twitch video ty) solves his neutral game by cutting the amount of times he's in neutral in half

there's nobody really _bad_. well, not in the way normally assumed, anyway. the gap between best and worst is "someone you can use nobody but and succeed" versus simply "someone who you'd probably only like in counterpicks", whereas in most smash games it's "playable in tourney" vs. "unplayable in tourney"

 

[Nguz95]

There's a match on youtube where Arty plays M2K. He actually wins the first game.
edit: the Arty Vortex is the best move ever.

 

[trash?]

ah, I've been using arty vs.... I don't have it on hand but I want to say sfat on a sidestream at BH3 as an example, but yeah, anyone with that kind of vortex can't be that bad

 

[Lukingordex]

Edit: Wait a sec, this is the tier list thread. What the hell happened here?

Tires are for quires

 

[Nguz95]

Here are all the videos I could find on Youtube of the Vortex in action:

 

[The_NZA]

That's not possible to do, with the amount of buffing and character additions we have. It sounds silly, but it's true that you probably will need another character or main for some of the worse off. You buff Link's projectiles to handle Sheik better, well imagine how that bones Ganon. Etc

You can't easily fix it for the entire cast. The direction PM is going though seems like "fine, I'll take a 7:3 MU, but someone else is going to accept my rather girthy phallus instead!" and it's just a cycle. Like try this:

Captain Falcon will not beat Charizard. But to make up for it, Captain Falcon will invalidate the crap out of Olimar. Olimar gets sad, but goes on to outcamp Ganondorf. That's actually the end of the line, because Ganon probably shouldn't beat anyone atm LOL

Point is, we're going to have 7:3 MU's. We already *do* have them, and the list will slightly grow a bit. Not just for 7:3, but for matchups where clearly someone is disavantaged. New Pikachu might even get to have his fun and ruin a character or two. What will happen is a trade off for many characters. I beat x real bad, and lose to y real bad. The only problem I find with this however (and I've voiced this awhile back too) is that for the top 5-8-x number of characters, they don't seem to operate by these rules. I can find a hell of a lot of characters that Sheik or MK or Falco bodies, but finding bad MU's for them is quite hard. Even when you find some, it's usually not 7:3 "switch off ur character" worthy AND it's probably less than a handful of characters. Everyone else has a fair share of very bad, and very good MU's. Top tier just seems to only have very good MU's, and that's the "frustrating" thing about it.

Like no guy wants to sit there as Falcon vs Link, having to run around and PS/dodge a ton of projectiles and think about xyz, when there's a character like Sheik or MK ready for you to try 5x less hard and still win.

The issue that still exists is characters with 3-7 matchups that don't have many or any 6-4 or 7-3 matchups to compensate. Ness imo is the biggest example of this, where he maybe only has an advantaged matchup against Ganon (which, lets be honest, who doesn't?). MAYBE he has the advantage against GnW or Bowser as well, but its hard to say.

tl;dr: Ness is the least changed character (not having any significant buffs since 2.5) and he is also one of the few in a problematic position.

 

[Professor Pro]

Toon Link is probably the most underrated character in the game.

Is this Jolteon's doing lol?

 

[Hylian]

Is this Jolteon's doing lol?

I've thought this for awhile but had nothing to back up my thoughts until I played him. So yes . lol

 

[Professor Pro]

Good to see my UK brother already starting to make an impact in the US scene
Next step is Apex, keep it up Joltewaste.

 

[Burnsy]

Can someone give me an example of good, hell even just half-decent attack options Luigi has in neutral? Besides throwing fireballs from too far away to do anything and WD>ftilt.

 

[The_NZA]

Also, what the hell is the vortex? Nair to ftilt?

 

[Oro?!]

No one even knows. It's just random hitboxes in random directions that sucks you in. Also you die if he touches you, but only sometimes.

 

[DrinkingFood]

Can someone give me an example of good, hell even just half-decent attack options Luigi has in neutral? Besides throwing fireballs from too far away to do anything and WD>ftilt.

SH fireball waveland is a thing. Try it.

 

[Burnsy]

Because that isn't pathetically telegraphed or anything

 

[DrinkingFood]

Sure, if you waveland every time i guess
but why would you do the same thing every time

 

[GeZ]

Sure, if you waveland every time i guess
but why would you do the same thing every time

That's a fair point, but both of the things that have been thrown out have been, throw fireball xx something. Is there anything he has in the neutral that doesn't involve his fireball?

 

[SpiderMad]

The issue that still exists is characters with 3-7 matchups that don't have many or any 6-4 or 7-3 matchups to compensate. Ness imo is the biggest example of this, where he maybe only has an advantaged matchup against Ganon (which, lets be honest, who doesn't?). MAYBE he has the advantage against GnW or Bowser as well, but its hard to say.

He feels kind of hard for DK, wouldn't you list him in at least your maybe?

 

[Plum]

Also, what the hell is the vortex? Nair to ftilt?

Vortex is a traditional fighting game term; a "vortex character" forces their opponent into continuous disadvantaged positions, most typically a hard knockdown (can't be teched), and upon a successful read they convert that read into another favorable situation, typically another hard knockdown.
So if you're waking up from the knockdown and block low and they come in high, they've successfully kept you in the vortex. Next time they cross you up. Next time they come in low when you block high, etc. It's almost a guessing game, but your opponent has less correct answers than you do.
As for what the "Arty Vortex" is... beats me
I was just seeing spaced aerials and tilts and a lot of not playing patiently enough against Ganondorf.

 

[Spiffykins]

Vortex is a traditional fighting game term; a "vortex character" forces their opponent into continuous disadvantaged positions, most typically a hard knockdown (can't be teched), and upon a successful read they convert that read into another favorable situation, typically another hard knockdown.
So if you're waking up from the knockdown and block low and they come in high, they've successfully kept you in the vortex. Next time they cross you up. Next time they come in low when you block high, etc. It's almost a guessing game, but your opponent has less correct answers than you do.
As for what the "Arty Vortex" is... beats me
I was just seeing spaced aerials and tilts and a lot of not playing patiently enough against Ganondorf.

Well, what you described just sounds a lot like Ganon's side b tech chases. Unfortunately on a FFer aerial side b doesn't get guaranteed follow ups until high percent, so at low percent the tech happens pretty early for Ganon to follow up. I don't think side b chases are really that valuable for Ganon regardless because his combo game is already so good. Now if someone starts grabbing the techs in place to CG and whatnot, while still covering other options, that'd be really broken.

 

[pkblaze]

I've spent quite some time lurking this thread, and my most major criticism is that I think a matchup chart does a far better job of what a tier list does in other Smash games. In brawl, there are characters that are just objectively better than others. Same in melee. Same in 64, unless you're Isai. In P:M, that's really not the case for the majority of the cast. Sure, there are some characters that have so few bad matchups they end up objectively better, and some characters that have so few good matchups that they are objectively worse, but that's describing the top and bottom 5-or-so characters.

In general, the consensus seems to be that the top few are probably Spacies, Shiek, MK, maybe Diddy. the bottom few are maybe Squirtle, Ganon, G&W, Olimar. Then the middle 50% or 75% of the cast has very little real consensus because everybody is on fairly even footing in terms of good MU to bad MU ratio.

Therefor, I believe that a matchup chart is the most effective way to handle this game. A tier list can be derived from that matchup chart that would essentially be the condensed list of each character's MU score/ratio/whatever. I'm aware that there is a thread (possibly more than one, actually) that adresses the matchup chart issue, and while I find this thread more interesting than that one, I like the goal of that one better.

Just my own 2 cents. also, here's a link to the matchup thread if you guys want. http://smashboards.com/threads/project-matchup-unofficial-p-m-matchup-chart.344926/#post-16173827

 

[Strong Badam]

Good to see my UK brother already starting to make an impact in the US scene
Next step is Apex, keep it up Joltewaste.

waste is a good name for him cuz that's what im gonna do to him

u ain't ready alex

 

[leelue]

Ganondorf attacking at the speed of light with almost all of his moves

I don't like how big the stages feel compared to the characters, especially the ceilings. It feels like the game favors killing off the side unless a move has a retardedly strong up-knockback.

Ganondorf has 2 attacks that come out before frame 6. Thats jab (frame 3) and the opening niche hit on up tilt (also frame 3). Next I think it's only up air at frame 6, and nair at frame 7. I think that all of these except for Utilt match melee.
Down and Ftilt have new animations, but I'm preeeetttty sure that they come out as quickly as they do in melee.

--

Either way, I would rather play a character that can compete than one that can't because we've held too much to his weaknesses. I mean, he should have some problems of course, but smoothing out the especially problematic ones is the only way he can remain competitive when most characters are being designed to more reasonably combat fox and falco and other characters that are obviously good.

--

Stage ceilings are just about on average as high as they are in melee.

 

[Jolteon]

waste is a good name for him cuz that's what im gonna do to him

u ain't ready alex

I'll make u feel like ur playing vs Falco.

 

[GMaster171]

I'll make u feel like ur playing vs Falco.

There's a thread for this you guys

Get a page already

 

[Deleted member]

Ganondorf has 2 attacks that come out before frame 6. Thats jab (frame 3) and the opening niche hit on up tilt (also frame 3). Next I think it's only up air at frame 6, and nair at frame 7. I think that all of these except for Utilt match melee.
Down and Ftilt have new animations, but I'm preeeetttty sure that they come out as quickly as they do in melee.

--

Either way, I would rather play a character that can compete than one that can't because we've held too much to his weaknesses. I mean, he should have some problems of course, but smoothing out the especially problematic ones is the only way he can remain competitive when most characters are being designed to more reasonably combat fox and falco and other characters that are obviously good.

--

Stage ceilings are just about on average as high as they are in melee.

I'd have to disagree with stage ceilings being on average. Most of the neutrals seem to have a retardedly high ceiling and if u compare character size/ ceiling size from melee/ project M they don't really compare.

In either case, the game seems to be more about side kills than ceiling kills, exceptions being fox up-smash, lucas up-smash but those seem to be 2 absurdly strong moves

and also, moves coming out on x frame isn't the only indicator of speed. That's a ****ing hilarious notion.

There's also obviously the cooldown after hitbox goes out, f-tilt is ****ing hilarious because of how fast you can kick in succession. In addition, it's not a move that 'swipes'. It's an instant sparta kick. It's about 3 times better than ganon's f-tilt in melee

Anyways, I'm gunna play Ganon in project m tourneys until i get too gheyed, maybe you guys are right

 

[Strong Badam]

Vast majority of the stages have ceilings similar to Battlefield, which is actually very close to the mathematical average in Melee. New ones like PS2/WarioWare have below-average ceilings, while others such as Dracula's Castle has a ceiling higher than average, between FoD and Dreamland.
I guess a smaller percent of the relevant characters KO off the top now. 1/8 vs like 2 or 3/41? Save for weirdness like shine -> shine combos with Falco on shorter ceiling stages.

 

[Nguz95]

The Arty Vortex is a shff nair. You don't l-cancel it because Ganon lands inside the auto-cancel frames when you fast-fall it. You then follow up with a jab or an ftilt. It's used for baiting and swatting annoying projectiles. It's quite useful actually, as nair covers a surprisingly large amount of area with a significant amount of disjoint. More often than not, however, the nair is used to bait, and the jab/ftilt that follows it is the key move.

 

[metroid1117]

Hey guys, in case you still wanted to see some of Ripple's D3 tricksies, I finally got around to uploading our $1 MM (props to Linde for helping me split the videos).

DThrow/FThrow mix-up is NASTY.

Also, the rest of the videos from that tournament can be found in this playlist. This playlist includes Dart's pools matches, my WR1 bracket match with Charizard, a bunch of my MMs/friendlies, and some MMs/friendlies between Strong Bad (Ike/Wario) and Rat (Wolf).

 

[Plum]

So basically the Arty Vortex isn't actually a Vortex it's just named that because why **** it.
Gotcha.

 

[DMG]

Falcon combos and tech chases MK too easily. Unless MK crushes all hope of grabbing/approaching, Falcon can't have too much trouble. MK can juggle and edgegaurd, but other than that I don't see what he could possibly have on Falcon.

Wolf beating Falcon I believe 100%, however.

MK is a bad MU for Falcon. I used to play that MU semi frequently as Falcon, he loses lol. If Falcon ever gets grabbed, Dthrow ruins his stock. His tech rolls are quite bad, and literally it's no joke that MK is basically like Melee Sheik once he Dthrows Falcon.

Grabbing MK is very hard because any ground attack cleanly outranges Falcon's attempts, and he can afford to throw out stuff like Ftilt and Dtilt without much fear of the grab. Fsmash as well: jumping over with a SH isn't that viable, hits surprisingly high. Which means you have to wait until the move is over, and have no punishes besides Down B if you perfectly read when he will drop it.

He's also very fast in neutral, with a very strong Dash/DD bait game of his own. You're asking Falcon to grab a Sheik/sword hybrid character... Jumping in is also hard because of how short he is. Any aerial besides Dair must be delayed to hit him, THAT'S VERY BAD! That's more time for an Utilt, Usmash, DD, shield, etc to throw you off.

I don't bother going Falcon vs MK's anymore. I find Marth completely effective and I don't lose to MK Dthrow stupid **** anymore . I shrek that MU and I wouldn't be surprised if MK lost to Marth

 

[GeZ]

I've spent quite some time lurking this thread, and my most major criticism is that I think a matchup chart does a far better job of what a tier list does in other Smash games. In brawl, there are characters that are just objectively better than others. Same in melee. Same in 64, unless you're Isai. In P:M, that's really not the case for the majority of the cast. Sure, there are some characters that have so few bad matchups they end up objectively better, and some characters that have so few good matchups that they are objectively worse, but that's describing the top and bottom 5-or-so characters.

In general, the consensus seems to be that the top few are probably Spacies, Shiek, MK, maybe Diddy. the bottom few are maybe Squirtle, Ganon, G&W, Olimar. Then the middle 50% or 75% of the cast has very little real consensus because everybody is on fairly even footing in terms of good MU to bad MU ratio.

Therefor, I believe that a matchup chart is the most effective way to handle this game. A tier list can be derived from that matchup chart that would essentially be the condensed list of each character's MU score/ratio/whatever. I'm aware that there is a thread (possibly more than one, actually) that adresses the matchup chart issue, and while I find this thread more interesting than that one, I like the goal of that one better.

Just my own 2 cents. also, here's a link to the matchup thread if you guys want. http://smashboards.com/threads/project-matchup-unofficial-p-m-matchup-chart.344926/#post-16173827

Matchup charts and tier lists are exclusive, as in most games do both because matchup charts are telling in a different way but are less direct.

So basically the Arty Vortex isn't actually a Vortex it's just named that because why **** it.
Gotcha.

Since smash doesn't have anything close enough to a vortex that isn't already named (namely tech chasing) it functions well enough. Just means something else in this game. That kind of happens a lot.

 

[Ripple]

thanks for the upload metroid.

I definitely didn't understand how to edgeguard ike during that set or how to DI those throws. That definitely costed me a couple stocks during that set

 

[NeonApophis]

Hylian, do you really still think Lucas is 16th? That seems crazy to me, even with the slight nerfs he received in 3.0. I don't think he's quite as good as Fox and Falco, and Wolf and MK could possibly be better, but I'm pretty certain that Lucas is top tier. He is amazing at just about everything; he can control the neutral game very well and has the ability to 0-death off of most hits, has a pretty good recovery, and lots of really strong kill moves to get low percentage kills. I'm pretty sure he also has the best shield pressure, both in terms of frame advantage and safety, as well as his ability to space his shield pressure to stay safe with a lot of options. His neutral game isn't quite as godly as Fox and Falco's, but it is still really good and it makes him very dangerous since his punishes are so strong.

 

[DMG]

I don't think Lucas will be as good once people further explore SDI and CC against him. It's hard to judge how effective some of his choices are supposed to "actually" be, because both sides are still pretty off on being supremely efficient. I think what would have cemented Lucas as a top 5ish character would have been a regular grab. Even with his shield pressure, the best answer to shields normally would be grabbing and he can't force it as well. Or alternatively, he would be way up there with less reliance on being airborne for pressure.

I'm torn on Lucas, because he looks like the potential is there, but also coupled with less than desirable features.

 

[Hylian]

Hylian, do you really still think Lucas is 16th? That seems crazy to me, even with the slight nerfs he received in 3.0. I don't think he's quite as good as Fox and Falco, and Wolf and MK could possibly be better, but I'm pretty certain that Lucas is top tier. He is amazing at just about everything; he can control the neutral game very well and has the ability to 0-death off of most hits, has a pretty good recovery, and lots of really strong kill moves to get low percentage kills. I'm pretty sure he also has the best shield pressure, both in terms of frame advantage and safety, as well as his ability to space his shield pressure to stay safe with a lot of options. His neutral game isn't quite as godly as Fox and Falco's, but it is still really good and it makes him very dangerous since his punishes are so strong.

I've played a lot of really good lucas players(oracle/calabrel when he played lucas/various other good ones) and he was one of my mains/best characters from 2.1 -> 3.0 and my thoughts on the character have not really changed much, he's just overrated. He does not have the ability to 0-death off most hits, that is grossly exaggerated with proper DI/SDI and CC. He's a great character I just think he has a good amount of match-ups he struggles with a lot(like Link for example ) and when you understand what he is doing and what he wants he becomes much easier to play against. He's absurdly susceptible to grab combos against most of the cast and is very easy to combo/edgeguard in general. I think his neutral game being worse than spacies is what sets him so far away from them in my eyes, they are more resilient, have better anti-pressure options as well as better pressure options imo(sorry, lucas magnet is not comparable to shine). There are just things you can abuse against lucas in a lot of match-ups that keep him from being top tier. That being said he's still really amazing and I think he's interchangeable with the 3 characters above him on my tier list.

Play me at some tournament and I'll show you how the character can be abused, I don't think I've failed at that yet playing against lucas players. Maybe I'm just really good against the character because I've played him so much but *shrugs* those are my impressions.

 

[metroid1117]

thanks for the upload metroid.

I definitely didn't understand how to edgeguard ike during that set or how to DI those throws. That definitely costed me a couple stocks during that set

Yeah, he's a very awkward character to edgeguard. I'd imagine that the result of that set would've been very different if we played a couple friendlies beforehand.

 

[guedes the brawler]

So, buffing those on the lower parts of the list is dangerous cause it can screw quite a few match-ups, right? Then why not do the inverse: nerf the top tiers. Not big nerfs that make them unplayable... but a lot of very slight nerfs that make the character feel th same but still make the match-ups against them much fairer to everyone.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

I don't know, I feel there will always be characters that will be able to take on most of the cast without absurdly disadvantageous match-ups. And characters like Wolf and MK are arguably the best designed and balanced characters in P:M at the moment. Doesn't seem fair.

 

[guedes the brawler]

it's not like these nerfs would, say, make they have lots of disadvantageous match-ups, just bring all of their match ups closer to 50:50

 

[CORY]

Also, what the hell is the vortex? Nair to ftilt?

when ganon does his nair, if you fastfall it, you autocancel after the hitbox comes out, so it becomes unexpectedly safe and you can then use ftilts/jabs/whatever out of it. it seems like a really good tool, but i don't think it's going to be something that saves the character on its own...

edit: a bit slow on the reply, it seems...