Tier List Speculation

[Kink-Link5]

Morph ball is enough of a buff to invalidate characters.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

Step 1: Crawl
Step 2: Mash C-Stick Down
Step 3: ???
Step 4: Win everytime except against Peach

There Samus is S tier

 

[DrinkingFood]

Alternatively alternatively, code his pikmin to not cycle except for when Down B, Side B, and F/D-Smash are used.

Or if possible have specific areas of stages have 100% pluck rates for certain pikmin

I badly want the first one
second one was confirmed to be not possible currently

 

[trash?]

big problem I'm going to say about olimar is: his set-ups always took time. and that was good in brawl! taking time is something that's achievable. but not in project m. in project m, the response to an olimar trying to camp out through sheer spacing alone will be a laugh in the face, followed by either relentless rushdown, or relentless laser camping. it doesn't help that he has no armor shenanigans, but even then, the pace no longer favors him. in his current form, he's someone that needs a brawl pace to function effectively, in a game where, in the timespan of a few seconds, someone can nail you three times in a row with kill moves and good DI guesses and ruin your day

also about that tier list survey (that's the thing in my signature, if you haven't done it yet) : I'll do results on friday. keep shoving in your opinion down there in the meantime

 

[DMG]

I think we should consider giving Olimar only Purple Pikmin, and extend their grab range to match other Pikminz. That's an interesting concept to me IMO, might make him more favorable.

 

[Nazo]

I think we should consider giving Olimar only Purple Pikmin, and extend their grab range to match other Pikminz. That's an interesting concept to me IMO, might make him more favorable.

or just make all the other pikmin just as strong as purple pikmin but with elemental properties.

 

[Kink-Link5]

or just make all the other pikmin just as strong as purple pikmin but with elemental properties.

How incredibly boring. If anything pikmin need further diversifying. Blue pikmin act essentially as Purples that attach when thrown at the moment.

 

[NightShadow6]

If blue pikmin had an increase in grab range that would help tremendously.

 

[DMG]

No don't make him grab further plox

Give him Monique

 

[Pseudomaniac]

I think making it so that not every attack cycles through his Pikmin would help him greatly since it would give him more control over his Pikmin.

 

[Kink-Link5]

The current model is

Red: Damage output, okay kill power
Yellow: Attack range and hitlag modifier for combos
Blue: Throw power and damage
Purple: Kill power
White: Exploding when attached

This could stand to be changed up a bit, for each pikmin to have different roles in hitting.

Red: Aerial knockback, most varied angles on attacks. Strongest vertical finishing uair of pikmin.
Yellow: Attack range and hitlag modifier
Blue: Low angle knockback- Uair, for example becomes a diagonal juggler like Falcon's/Mario's rather than a vertical juggler, while fair hits like Sheik's
Purple: High power and knockback, with most attacks launching at the Sakurai angle
White: Explode when killed, giving them "insurance" compared to other pikmin

And please make the Whites' explosions darkness based! It's jarring to see them burst into flame.



The current model is for each Pikmin to have a role in a matchup- characters weak to throws lose to blues, aerials to reds, heavily comboed, yellows, and so on. While the current aspects of each pikmin can still stay, having more differentiating aspects makes it less cut and dry about which to use "in a matchup" and more about what Olimar wants to in a situation. Setting up a combo with a Yellow, then switching out to a Blue to gimp at the end would be much more in model with the flavor of Pikmin working together, and make Olimar more in control of his army.

 

[Oro?!]

We could always remove his pikmin, give Olimar a sword and a scar on his face, give him a backstory involving a deadly war and being starcrossed lovers, and call it a day.

 

[DMG]

Um, will that sword be covered with phiar3? If so, plz do this

 

[Pwnz0rz Man]

Um, will that sword be covered with phiar3? If so, plz do this

It shouldn't be a sword at all. It should be a kabob with dead Pikmin on it that he can swing, with all the effects of the 5 Pikmin at different portions of the stick.

 

[DMG]

That's barbaric... and vegan

 

[Pwnz0rz Man]

That's barbaric... and vegan

I suppose if it's too barbaric, you could just have a sword made of Pikmin linking hands/legs. But that seems more like a whip to me.

 

[otter]

I suppose if it's too barbaric, you could just have a sword made of Pikmin linking hands/legs. But that seems more like a whip to me.

G rated Pikmin centipede.

 

[QQQQQQQ7777777]

I just realized something, this is basically the social thread if you remove everything in there and only keep the things about project m (although, then it would only be 1 page)

 

[ss118]

Sounds like smashboards in its entirety.

 

[DireDrop]

I came here to see what people thought about PM's game balance. Instead people are talking about skewering pikmin and giving Olimar a sword. Oh well. If Olimar get's a sword I say Marth gets pikmin. Maybe Link too. He needs another projectile.

 

[GeZ]

I came here to see what people thought about PM's game balance. Instead people are talking about skewering pikmin and giving Olimar a sword. Oh well. If Olimar get's a sword I say Marth gets pikmin. Maybe Link too. He needs another projectile.

The game is very well balanced, as has been shown by tournaments featuring super varied finals matchups. There's definitely still best and worst and middling characters, but the disparity between them is so slim that the titles they hold are almost token rather than necessary.

 

[RPGsFTW]

Ok, so serious talk about Olimar now. The one Olimar main in Vegas seems to have a pretty good hang of the character now, and it is getting increasingly harder to fight him. The pikmin absorbing projectiles while still landing on people and building free damage is really irritating at times, and I feel like edgeguarding him isn't as easy as it should be. I mostly want to say that out of everything Olimar related I've seen here so far, I don't think Olimar is at all bad, but quite good and annoying. Hopefully my mind will change in the future when I fight Olimar more.

 

[DMG]

What character are you using? Try Fox, 10/10 fun will be had

 

[KayB]

A big problem that Project M should avoid isn't the lack of balance but the existence of unfavorable match ups to the point of 70-30. You can say learn the match up, but no character should be faced with such an unfavorable match up or you'd see people switching characters all the time. In which case there'd be no point in having a balanced cast.
I haven't researched enough about the match ups to know if there are a lot of bad ones so this might be an empty worry, but I'd still keep it in mind. It's just the whole "The cast is really balanced" words that are getting to me. Ultimately having a really balanced cast is null and void in the presence of unfavorable match ups.

My two cents.

 

[RPGsFTW]

What character are you using? Try Fox, 10/10 fun will be had

I can beat the guy, but the matches are very back and forth. I play Luigi, for the most part. I can't play a dumb character like Fox and have fun or enjoy him, haha.

 

[KayB]

I get an adrenaline rush when I use fox because he's so fast. I have a lot of fun with him. I understand he gets a lot of hate for being amazing (and rightfully so), but regardless he's a really fun character to use.

 

[DMG]

That's not possible to do, with the amount of buffing and character additions we have. It sounds silly, but it's true that you probably will need another character or main for some of the worse off. You buff Link's projectiles to handle Sheik better, well imagine how that bones Ganon. Etc

You can't easily fix it for the entire cast. The direction PM is going though seems like "fine, I'll take a 7:3 MU, but someone else is going to accept my rather girthy phallus instead!" and it's just a cycle. Like try this:

Captain Falcon will not beat Charizard. But to make up for it, Captain Falcon will invalidate the crap out of Olimar. Olimar gets sad, but goes on to outcamp Ganondorf. That's actually the end of the line, because Ganon probably shouldn't beat anyone atm LOL

Point is, we're going to have 7:3 MU's. We already *do* have them, and the list will slightly grow a bit. Not just for 7:3, but for matchups where clearly someone is disavantaged. New Pikachu might even get to have his fun and ruin a character or two. What will happen is a trade off for many characters. I beat x real bad, and lose to y real bad. The only problem I find with this however (and I've voiced this awhile back too) is that for the top 5-8-x number of characters, they don't seem to operate by these rules. I can find a hell of a lot of characters that Sheik or MK or Falco bodies, but finding bad MU's for them is quite hard. Even when you find some, it's usually not 7:3 "switch off ur character" worthy AND it's probably less than a handful of characters. Everyone else has a fair share of very bad, and very good MU's. Top tier just seems to only have very good MU's, and that's the "frustrating" thing about it.

Like no guy wants to sit there as Falcon vs Link, having to run around and PS/dodge a ton of projectiles and think about xyz, when there's a character like Sheik or MK ready for you to try 5x less hard and still win.

 

[Ripple]

the thing I see about olimar is, now that he lost armor on whistle, it seems spupid to try and recover high. and he only has a tether to recover. so as long as you have a good-for-edgeguarding bair and a fair that kills. you should invalidate olimars recovery

 

[Kink-Link5]

Hard counters are fine if and only if the character doing the countering has hard of soft counters of their own. It's fine that Jigglypuff beats up on Peach and other characters, since both Fox and Young Link give her trouble. If, though, a character like Sheik is the reason for a character being invalid, countering this won't be achieved by a character switch alone.

 

[DMG]

^^^ Which is what top tier lacks a lot of

 

[Ryusuta]

Toon Link might actually be bottom tier. That recovery nerf was just WAY too harsh.

 

[Kink-Link5]

Toon Link might actually be bottom tier. That recovery nerf was just WAY too harsh.

His recovery was already abysmally predictable and gimpable. Nothing of any value was lost.

Also

- Up Special's second hitbox lasts one less frame
- Up Special's last hitbox does more damage, with less hitlag and weaker SFX

What recovery nerfs? The only changes to up-b were ones that don't affect bomb jumping in the slightest. The universal changes affect all other tether users, and ZSS got shafted far worse by them.

 

[ss118]

It's bad but it isn't so bad that it makes him bottom tier imo. For what seems to be a projectile based character his combos are ridiculous(better than Links imo, though he's much better for other reasons).

 

[Nguz95]

TL has swag combos, but he does suffer from a linear recovery. If you take advantage of every trick he has, he can actually cover a very large distance with ease. However, he recovers slowly and predictably, which is not a good combination. He's better than most people give him credit for, but he's still below mid-tier imo.

 

[DireDrop]

The real problem with balance in PM is that there are 40+ characters. The PMBR have done an exceptional job so far, but I'm very skeptical each character can be viable in a cast that big. There's just too many variables.

 

[FlareHabanero]

The main advantage to a game like this is that if there is some game breaking character or glitch, it can be patched up with a new version. It sounds simple, but it's the main advantage over the official titles, and because of it there won't be a situation where one variable will plague the game forever.

 

[Jolteon]

TL's recovery is better than YL's, even with the 1.0 rang cancel. AGT is a really good recovery tool, and he has one of the best recoveries in the game because of that.

 

[Nguz95]

Can TL do the tether stuff that YL could?

 

[Jolteon]

No. He has lots of new stuff though, his recovery is really dynamic if used properly and he also gains a lot of distance so it's basically everything you need from a recovery.

 

[Nguz95]

Interesting. Are you going to Apex Jolteon?