Tier List Speculation

[DireDrop]

The main advantage to a game like this is that if there is some game breaking character or glitch, it can be patched up with a new version. It sounds simple, but it's the main advantage over the official titles, and because of it there won't be a situation where one variable will plague the game forever.

That's fine as long as the patches aren't too frequent. Otherwise PM will start to feel like a "flavor of the month" style game. Starcraft suffers from that IMO.

 

[Nguz95]

LoL does too. There's something to be said for leaving things as they are for a while. So far I'd say the PMBR has been incredibly successful at making sure they have a product they're comfortable with before releasing it.

 

[Jolteon]

Yeah I'm going to Apex.

 

[DireDrop]

The PMBR has been nothing but exceptional so far. I agree. Hopefully, once they finalize all characters and features they plan to add, they'll get the balance to a state that's relatively acceptable, and drop the project. And honestly, with the exception of the lag issue with the new models, I'm pretty happy with 3.0 as is.

 

[FlareHabanero]

That's fine as long as the patches aren't too frequent. Otherwise PM will start to feel like a "flavor of the month" style game. Starcraft suffers from that IMO.

Hence why I think it should only be used when absolutely necessary. Not used every month, just when it's needed.

 

[GeZ]

I wouldn't be as jazzed for them to drop the project, if not just because there's still alt costume slots to fill, characters to add, and general hype to be brewed.

 

[DireDrop]

I wouldn't be as jazzed for them to drop the project, if not just because there's still alt costume slots to fill, characters to add, and general hype to be brewed.

They need to drop it soon. I'm out of wrist straps.

 

[DrinkingFood]

but muh 5 character slots
muh stage expansion code
muh new modes
muh light shield and melee tethers
muh 1 frame physics delay fix
muh alt costumes
and most importantly
muh 2.1 RoboDash

 

[DireDrop]

So, when they make a new character, are they going to steal another boss to replace the sounds? And if that is the case, what are they going to with the Subspace emissary, and boss battles? Fighting Duon is hilarious right now because of all the random Roy sounds he makes.

 

[DrinkingFood]

So, when they make a new character, are they going to steal another boss to replace the sounds? And if that is the case, what are they going to with the Subspace emissary, and boss battles? Fighting Duon is hilarious right now because of all the random Roy sounds he makes.

hopefully they will have introduced a code for adding whole new sounds into the game
more miraculous things have been done after all

 

[GeZ]

So, when they make a new character, are they going to steal another boss to replace the sounds? And if that is the case, what are they going to with the Subspace emissary, and boss battles? Fighting Duon is hilarious right now because of all the random Roy sounds he makes.

Well first they'll acknowledge that no one downloads P:M for subspace.

Also,
muh improved clone engine opening up a possible roster of 100 characters.

 

[DrinkingFood]

100 characters? please no
this isn't a ****ing mugen
also nearly 200,000 downloads at this point? I have no doubt that there are a fair share of people who like SSE and boss battles in their proper.

 

[DireDrop]

100 characters? please no
this isn't a ****ing mugen
also nearly 200,000 downloads at this point? I have no doubt that there are a fair share of people who like SSE and boss battles in their proper.

I agree on both points. I know it's not universally liked, but the Subspace Emissary was by far my favorite part of Brawl. I thought it was so clever, and just plain fun. Now you give me that same story and environment with PM gameplay mechanics and I'll be in single player heaven.

Still, 1v1 is PM's real selling (downloading?) point.

 

[GeZ]

I know this isn't mugen, I wasn't implying they were all going to be filled, but it opens up the avenue to include Pichu without having people complain that it's taking one of the key character slots. I'm focusing on the apparent implications rather than the "FIVE MILLION CHARACTERS, LETS GO" as that's obviously ridiculous.

Still, Pichu doe.

And I know that some people do download this for SSE but I don't think that SSE polish should be a focus. If it's absolutely necessary to change some bosses sounds, so that new characters can have their own sound set, I don't think the SSE's nonexistent immersion will take a huge hit. I don't dislike SSE, but putting focus on it is like saying that classic mode should be tuned up in Smash 4. Sure it'd be neat, but I'll take character, stage, and game polish over it.

 

[Hungry Headcrab]

Roy/Mewtwo sound effects only make Subspace better.

Edit: Wait a sec, this is the tier list thread. What the hell happened here?

 

[GeZ]

Every time someone points out that this thread is tier list discussion, I always feel guilty and have to pitch in towards that a bit.

What do people think about the top tiers in 3.0? have they moved at all or are they in relatively the same place? Where do the IC's sit for you? Or Roy?

 

[DireDrop]

The mech thing is actually kinda scary to fight with Mewtwo hissing and growling at you the whole time.

I think Mario's going to tear things up. He's like Fox in that he has all the right tools for all the right situations.

 

[Plum]

Hard to say with the Icies right now as some core gameplay won't be in place until the patch in the coming days.
Roy is basically a better version of his Melee self, in that basically all of his problems from Melee still exist but he can kind of cheese you with everything comboing into Fsmash or NeutralB.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

Ignoring the obvious *coughnonWolfSpaciescough*

What is to be done about characters like Shook, Meta Knight and Wolfie whose real strength lies in not having many, if any unfavorable match-ups and thus have a distinct advantage over the rest of the cast?

 

[ss118]

I think the rest of the cast should be improved so that everyone has the same lack of a problem.

Now obviously this is hard because some characters(slow, heavy characters) often have skewed match-ups one way or another. I think it would be better to focus on a specific class of upper tier characters and bring them to a higher realm of "no bad match - ups" not due to cheesy strategies or what not, but but having a good central concept. Wolf/ Mario/ Ivysaur stand out as well done to start.

 

[DireDrop]

I think it would be awesome if no one had a bad/great matchup (like 70:30) but everyone had soft counters, like 60:40 at worst. That way, even at top skill level, we'd see lot's of different characters getting played out of necessity. It kind of works that way in melee, but only with like 6 characters, and Fox is actually the best it's just that very few people are technical enough to play him.

 

[Hylian]

Toon Link is probably the most underrated character in the game.

 

[GeZ]

I think the rest of the cast should be improved so that everyone has the same lack of a problem.

Now obviously this is hard because some characters(slow, heavy characters) often have skewed match-ups one way or another. I think it would be better to focus on a specific class of upper tier characters and bring them to a higher realm of "no bad match - ups" not due to cheesy strategies or what not, but but having a good central concept. Wolf/ Mario/ Ivysaur stand out as well done to start.

That's really ****ing hard, and has been deemed near impossible by some designers in the FGC (like the balance team for Ultra Street Fighter 4). Nerfs are necessary in regards to characters that are too good, because it constitutes better balance. There's a reason people say "Ultra Street FIghter 4: No Nerfs Edition!" as a joke.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

Yeah, as cool as it'd be to have a diverse fighting game roster with no bad match-ups, shouldn't we spend that magic wish on like a cure for cancer?

 

[Deleted member]

anybody with a serious tier list? ive just started playing this and want to start ****ting on the locals

 

[Hylian]

People seemed to like mine S2J.

Ok, time for my 3.0 first impressions tier list. I will say this was the hardest one by far to make and while making it I really realized how balanced the cast is. I think viability might only start to drop off around the last 2-3 characters.

That being said:

S Tier

1. Fox
2. Falco
3. Shiek
4. Wolf
5. Meta Knight
6. Diddy Kong

A Tier

7. Wario
8. Snake
9. Mario
10. Peach
11. Marth
12. Pit
13. Donkey Kong
14. Ivysaur
15. Captain Falcon
16. Lucas

B Tier

17. Zero Suit Samus
18. Link
19. Ike
20. Yoshi
21. Kirby
22. Samus
23. Jigglypuff
24. Bowser
25. ROB
26. Roy
27. Charizard
28. Mewtwo
29. Lucario
30. King DDD
31. Toon Link
32. Ness

C Tier

33. Sonic
34. Ice Climbers
35. Pikachu
36. Zelda
37. Luigi
38. Mr. Game and Watch
39. Squirtle
40. Ganondorf
41. Olimar

 

[Deleted member]

anybody with a serious tier list? ive just started playing this and want to start ****ting on the locals

just play falcon and do melee falcon things because he's fluid. you're so aggressive you'll shit on them anyway.

 

[leelue]

Godammit Hylian. Why do you have to feed my confirmation bias that I only play unviably bad characters

If viability is dropping off at squirtle or GW or whatever, why aren't those in D tier?

 

[SpiderMad]

anybody with a serious tier list? ive just started playing this and want to start ****ting on the locals

ooooooo uh.. Diddy, and then learn to use bananas or I will scream at you. Hes got a Gentlemen like CF and moves around fast and stuff

Also tell me if you think CF feels less fluid or something in PM, since a few Melee CF players seem to feel that way when he feels better to me in PM.

 

[Hylian]

Godammit Hylian. Why do you have to feed my confirmation bias that I only play unviably bad characters

If viability is dropping off at squirtle or GW or whatever, why aren't those in D tier?

I said maybe >_>, I'm not certain enough yet to say they aren't viable haha.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

I have a tendency to slum it in B-tier, with the exception of Wolf. Looking into MK and Pit now, too.

 

[DireDrop]

I agree with Sonic's placement, which makes me sad. I don't like seeing him so low. His pressure options need to be a little better.

 

[leelue]

Poor Zhunic

 

[Deleted member]

you guys ****ing fail at answering my question

edit: except hylian, thanks


also, ganondorf isnt the 2nd worst in p:m, there are at least 3-4 things that should make him at least top 10 in this game

 

[Oro?!]

Ganon is better than Melee, but there is a lot of bull**** he cannot deal with. Same matchups with Melee tops, then there are some crazy Brawl characters.

Only matchups that are complete **** with Falcon that are new are MK and Wolf imo. Wolf feels harder than Falco by a mile and the matchup play out similarly.

 

[Spiffykins]

Falcon combos and tech chases MK too easily. Unless MK crushes all hope of grabbing/approaching, Falcon can't have too much trouble. MK can juggle and edgegaurd, but other than that I don't see what he could possibly have on Falcon.

Wolf beating Falcon I believe 100%, however.

 

[Deleted member]

ooooooo uh.. Diddy, and then learn to use bananas or I will scream at you. Hes got a Gentlemen like CF and moves around fast and stuff

Also tell me if you think CF feels less fluid or something in PM, since a few Melee CF players seem to feel that way when he feels better to me in PM.

My opinion so far is that he seems less fluid, but idk if that's a result of project melee using the brawl engine/graphics. It definitely doesn't look natural. And its hard to develop your own style with him ( and other characters). A lot of the characters feel like theres only 1 optimal way to play them. He's mostly the same as melee but Up-throw is weird, n-air/knee are both different, nair seems to pop people up more than it used to in melee.

It seems like Hax style falcon would be the best, std way to play falcon in Project:M. Keep in mind though I only had 1 good project:m session so far

I played DK, Falcon, and Ganon the most, but honestly I am disappointed in all 3 of their designs. For example, I hate seeing Ganondorf attacking at the speed of light with almost all of his moves, or every single one of Dk's moves being good. Spamming jab with DK is ****ing funny and fail (imo). You can combo with Ganon's jab with jab by walking forward and jabbing after a d-throw.

I enjoyed playing characters with flaws that go beyond them being a big target.

I don't like how big the stages feel compared to the characters, especially the ceilings. It feels like the game favors killing off the side unless a move has a retardedly strong up-knockback.

///

I'm positive that Dk, Falcon, and Ganon are all equally good, just in different areas. Why does the entire cast beat ganon?

 

[DMG]

I agree with stage size. I think ceilings are fine, better than before actually. I dunno if you saw the picture, but someone did a comparison and it showed 90% of stages with the same exact ceiling height. That aside, Stage sizes and layouts are more toxic for running away than people seem to realize. Like I don't think people know how truly nasty Skyloft, Rumble Falls, etc can be. The legal stage list is probably going to shrink as people play better imo. It's kind of no wonder that old Sonic was running around for free, look at our legal stage list. Draculas, Rumble Falls, Skyloft, etc big stages.

Most of the cast can beat Ganon, because of a lot of factors. People in general:

1. Safer on shield
2. Better projectiles
3. Much MUCH better recoveries
4. At the same time, improved edgeguards and gimps on linear recovery characters
5. Onstage mobility for the average cast member is much higher, while Ganon remains relatively slow in actual movement
6. Average Grab range is huge in PM compared to Melee. Marth is no longer "special", should give you an idea
7. Average range/disjoint in PM is higher

Ganon didn't get enough buffs to overcome what the game has developed into. You need harder reads to accomplish the same thing you could in Melee, especially against newer characters. Falcon has issues with some of the cast as well, but he's obviously more equipped to handle the game by being faster/more mobile. DK is definitely better than his Melee version and probably fares the best out of that trio honestly.

 

[Nguz95]

People look down on Ganon because he has no obvious way to deal with projectiles. I believe that he has a lot going for him, but most think his sluggishness makes it difficult for him to deal with the many small characters that have lots of mobility and a significant amount of disjoint. Most say he is better than Melee, but outclassed in many areas.

 

[DMG]

Projectiles actually aren't that terrible for Ganon. You can manage things with PSing or using beefy attacks/sometimes jab to stuff out things. The problem is that he just sucks at initiating things properly in neutral. You CAN manage to wade forward past Pit arrows, past Link crap, etc. The question is what do you do once you actually close the gap in neutral with him. Your options are pretty predictable. You can't suddenly dash at someone and cross up their shield, use a huge grab range, a good DD bait... You have to sit there and basically break down your opponent option by option. Other characters tend to have at least something to aid them in the process of opening up their opponent easier before they go to town. Ganon lacks that. It's brute force, layeth the Smackdown