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Tier List Speculation

Metazoa

Smash Cadet
Joined
Dec 25, 2013
Messages
48
I actually think that the random Pikmin of Olimar are one of a few things that make him interesting from the perspective of playing him. I know RNG is something that's really hated in competitive games, but I feel that Olimar's systems kinda make players have to really understand what options lead into what options and kind of change their gameplan on the fly. To me, it's kind of like the item tosses of Faust in GG (which I think are random), where each item helps out the player in some way and they can change their options based on whatever they get.
 

PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP

Hologram Summer Again
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Pikmin aren't really random, and a 4 purple setup happens extremely rarely. Also, the odds for a certain type of pikmin to be generated all depen upon what stage you're on and even what surface you're on on that stage. PMBR could probably adjust that chance data in order to I guess emphasize certain styles on different stages.
 

Kankato

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Dec 5, 2013
Messages
239
Location
SoCal
Pikmin aren't really random, and a 4 purple setup happens extremely rarely. Also, the odds for a certain type of pikmin to be generated all depen upon what stage you're on and even what surface you're on on that stage. PMBR could probably adjust that chance data in order to I guess emphasize certain styles on different stages.
Why would you want the PMBR to balance the terrain variable per stage when you could get rid of it entirely?
Also, if Olimar is a boring character who could be improved upon, why not improve him? Controlling Pikmin lineups (if done correctly) will add a large layer of depth to his game. Which pikmin you use, what order they're placed and which you need to mature (leaf, bud, flower) would be decided by Olimar and not the RNG gods. Think about potential variation from each stage, each MU and each individual Olimar main. An anti-fastfaller arrangement works wonders on Fox & Falco, but is useless against Jigglypuff. Juggle/Grab arrangements are more powerful on FD than BF. Camping opponents require a different approach than aggressive rushdown games.

Olimar could change his game to better suit all these factors AT THE PLAYER'S CONTROL, instead of just plucking Pikmin and working with whatever he ends up with.
btw No Olimar randomly draws four Purples. That was more of a note on my idea. Thanks for the note though :)
 
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jtm94

Smash Lord
Joined
Oct 16, 2013
Messages
1,384
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Pittsburgh, PA
I am all for Olimar being able to have more control of his Pikmin.
I REALLY like the idea of his antenna changing color based on which Pikmin is next in line. And though it would be cool if the Pikmin always came out in the same order, it would make there be too much of a favoring towards a color instead of just going with the flow and you could set up an all-one-color line-up.

His recovery is still weird to me and I'm not asking for it to be buffed, but the tether doesn't grab onto the ledge sometimes.
 

PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP

Hologram Summer Again
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Whistle is for ordering your pikmin, so they are in the order you want them to be. Also the strawman that randomly generated objects are the bane of competitive games is wrong. First, LoL has a lot of random chance, and it is probably the most successful game in the competitive scene. Smash also has its fair share of randomness, even in melee. Misfire, turnips, and judgement are all examples that have a large impact on the game depending on what object is randomly generated, and nobody has really objected to those. Part of what makes Olimar Olimar is the fact that his pikmin are random, and his playstyle, even in brawl, is based around improvising with what you have and micromanaging what you have in order to get what you want.
 

Kink-Link5

Smash Hero
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Hall of Dreams' Great Mausoleum
Whistle is for ordering your pikmin, so they are in the order you want them to be. Also the strawman that randomly generated objects are the bane of competitive games is wrong. First, LoL has a lot of random chance, and it is probably the most successful game in the competitive scene. Smash also has its fair share of randomness, even in melee. Misfire, turnips, and judgement are all examples that have a large impact on the game depending on what object is randomly generated, and nobody has really objected to those. Part of what makes Olimar Olimar is the fact that his pikmin are random, and his playstyle, even in brawl, is based around improvising with what you have and micromanaging what you have in order to get what you want.
That would be cool and all if not for the fact that every pikmin's strategy is "Wait for flower, then pretend they're all the same." The differences between how each pikmin hits right now are so dismissible they may as well be.
 

PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP

Hologram Summer Again
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That would be cool and all if not for the fact that every pikmin's strategy is "Wait for flower, then pretend they're all the same"
lol no you throw whites away as soon as you get them, and blues are still much better for grabs with flowers. fatties aren't really good for aerials, so you keep track of yellows and reds for that. But yeah, when the other player is above 95% and your pikmin are all flowered, it doesn't really matter as long as it's not a white.
 

ss118

Smash Master
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I agree with Kink-Link5. Right now there is purple pikmin, white pikmin, and "other" when it comes to natural hitboxes. Yellow have a different angle thrown sideways and blue throws people hard, and red.... does more damage? I feel like if Olimar were to be interesting that the pikmin need to have a more established goal towards having a particular color. Right now it's more of a press B and get what you get, throw away whites if you're trying to kill. Maybe have red ones have insane projectile durability(even as a fair and stuff). The most well designed ones atm are the purple and white pikmin imo.
 

DMG

Smash Legend
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DMG#931
Random Pikmin are fine. He needs other properties about them tuned. Olimar should respawn with at least 1 Pikmin. He gets crippled for coming back and usually has to spend some invincibility time plucking up some to better defend and attack with. Nobody else has to deal with that: people like DK and Samus it's optional for you to spend that time charging instead of going in, or for Snake it's optional to put down traps. It's much less so for Oli.
 

Kink-Link5

Smash Hero
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Reposting this.

The current model is

Red: Damage output, okay kill power
Yellow: Attack range and hitlag modifier for combos
Blue: Throw power and damage
Purple: Kill power
White: Exploding when attached

This could stand to be changed up a bit, for each pikmin to have different roles in hitting.

Red: Aerial knockback, most varied angles on attacks. Strongest vertical finishing uair of pikmin.
Yellow: Attack range and hitlag modifier, [strongest vertical U-throw and U-smash growth]
Blue: Low angle knockback- Uair, for example becomes a diagonal juggler like Falcon's/Mario's rather than a vertical juggler, while fair hits like Sheik's
Purple: High power and knockback, with most attacks launching at the Sakurai angle
White: Explode when killed, giving them "insurance" compared to other pikmin

The current model is for each Pikmin to have a [slight] role in a matchup- characters weak to throws lose to blues, aerials to reds, heavily comboed, yellows, and so on. While the current aspects of each pikmin can still stay, having more differentiating aspects makes it less cut and dry about which to use "in a matchup" and more about what Olimar wants to [use] in a situation. Setting up a combo with a Yellow, then switching out to a Blue to gimp at the end would be much more in model with the flavor of Pikmin working together [toward a goal], and make Olimar more in control of his army.
 
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Kankato

Smash Journeyman
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Yeah, pikmin do need to be better designed or more specialized, but doing away with the entire random aspect is not a good alternative.
May I ask why it's not a good alternative? It would be a pain to balance, sure, but would it be worth it in the future?
 

jtm94

Smash Lord
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I think the red should be able to stuff basic projectiles easier than the other pikmin unless of their type.
As they are it is so arbitrary to have the right Pikmin at the right time and in every instance flowered is the best, so you must stall out until they flower.

As far as white pikmin go, once flowered they deal 75% DAMAGE for full latch! That is ridiculous. I also wish the white pikmin didn't fly so far because I toss them off on accident, it would be nice if normalized a little and didn't die quite as easy.

Yellow pikmin toss with a stupid trajectory in the way they lob.
 

DrinkingFood

Smash Hero
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Beaumont, TX
Pikmin aren't really random, and a 4 purple setup happens extremely rarely. Also, the odds for a certain type of pikmin to be generated all depen upon what stage you're on and even what surface you're on on that stage. PMBR could probably adjust that chance data in order to I guess emphasize certain styles on different stages.
Pikmin really are random. The chance, though does depend on where you are.
Also, P:MBR said awhile ago in the social thread, I believe, that they don't know how to adjust the chances for olimar to pull pikmin in certain places. So barring them figuring that out, the best route seems to be just giving him better management options. Or at least remove his anti-management options. By which I mean, the fact that all his attacks force a switch, meaning the player needs to constantly keep track of a random order of variables in a game that's really too fast for that to be effectively feasible. Only certain attacks would force a switch- ones that send the pikmin away where olimar can't reach them, or moves designed primarily change their order. After which, they could diversify the pikmin's effects based more on color and less on move used.
Or alternatively, P:MBR could just leave him a bland character whose most interesting trait adds almost nothing to him... except purples.
 

DMG

Smash Legend
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Slippi.gg
DMG#931
PURPLES ONLY

PMBR PLZ

Rumor has it hungrybox won a 70 man tourney with PM Olimar

VIDS NAO
 

guedes the brawler

Smash Lord
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Jan 3, 2009
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1,076
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Brazil. Sadly. Living here SUCKS!
NNID
Rafabrawl
people seem to think olimar is boring, only from a 'watching someone else play him" perspective. it's true.

The whole deal with Olimar's pluck being random and forcing the player(s, but i doubt most guys who fight olimar pay THAT much attention to that, specially in PM where Olimar is faster and the pikmins kinda blend more) to make their decisions and strategies on the fly is the biggest charm olimar has. It forces the player to adapt to a situation and to think much more of what are they doing

Smash already has that feeling of "every match is ridiculously different" that isn't replicated well in most fighters, and Olimar just makes it that much more better.


...maybe if commentators know more about Olimar, they can actually put a bit on insight of what Olimar is doing and why is he doing that, during the match.
 

Metazoa

Smash Cadet
Joined
Dec 25, 2013
Messages
48
I've been planning to post something in that Olimar wishlist thread, but I'll summarize something here as I think it'll improve him overall. If, when he didn't have Pikmin, he attacked using the Pikpik carrots seen in Pikmin 2 (and by extension has moves geared toward helping him obtain space to pluck Pikmin or to close out a stock before beginning to restock), he'd be more solid.

On the thread topic, I hope there's lots of recordings and representation of every character present in PM. It'll help this process a bunch.
 

ss118

Smash Master
Joined
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Savannah, Georgia
PURPLES ONLY

PMBR PLZ

Rumor has it hungrybox won a 70 man tourney with PM Olimar

VIDS NAO
Not a rumor. I was there, but I went only Mewtwo and the guy who got 2nd picked random vs him. I played his Olimar in a friendly with Ivysaur afterwards and won despite not doing... well, anything.

I got 3rd btw. It was 78 people iirc
 

DMG

Smash Legend
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Slippi.gg
DMG#931
The whole point of the internet was Caps Lock
 

NickLeo

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jan 8, 2014
Messages
80
Location
Wellington, FL
I like the ideas being thrown around, but those who recommend having control over the pikmin being plucked need to realize this would result in 4 whites with projectile camping and then 4 purples with upsmash spam, besides it doesn't sound too interactive. Instead, I think olimar should be able to pull 1 pre-flowered pikmin of his choice each 30 seconds or so using the d-pad, also olimar's antennae could change color to signify when the cooldown is up.
It's just an idea, plus I think it would add some utility and interaction to maybe make him a little less dull.
 

DMG

Smash Legend
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DMG#931
I have my own Olimar. His name is Lamar the Olimar. You can follow him on Twitter, he'll be the next big thing in Oli gameplay
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
On top of not having the Pikmin switch places after attacks, I just think that having the Pikmin colors cycle in a predictable manner as you pluck them would give the player a reasonable amount if control over the character. You could even make it like Peach's F-smash where the first pluck is a random color, but they follow a pattern after that. Make it easy and just go in rainbow order.
 

Sashimi

Smash Ace
Joined
May 25, 2013
Messages
704
PMBR, if you were watching Xanadu Grand Finals...

IS THIS WHAT YOU WANTED FROM KIRBY!?
 

Kink-Link5

Smash Hero
Joined
Jul 10, 2007
Messages
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Hall of Dreams' Great Mausoleum
PMBR, if you were watching Xanadu Grand Finals...

IS THIS WHAT YOU WANTED FROM KIRBY!?
That being said, I really liked what I saw from this Squeak player's Metaknight. He wasn't executing on point and made some hesitant reads, but he seemed to be getting the reads on techs and recoveries just about every time. With more practice I can see him getting a lot better at getting that execution down.
 
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