The ability to solo in this game is super strictly linked to your bracket/scene. Much more so than any other Smash game imo. Most of the cast have a few "cover your eyes" MU's, but what are the odds that you will run into that exact character in bracket or that your scene will have a flourished main of that character who bodies you?
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Tier List Speculation
- Thread starter OkamiBW
- Start date
Ness lacks a good zoning tool.
His f-air just doesn't cut it and his b-air doesnt have the range it needs to fill that role.
Ness needs to be all agro to be successful, which he is pretty good at. But he lacks that ability to zone someone when he needs to, so he gets blown up in the neutral game by someone who can navigate and penetrate someones "defensive zone" easily. Like Falcon or Fox.
Literally Fox's nair plane blows up any zoning Ness trys to do.
His f-air just doesn't cut it and his b-air doesnt have the range it needs to fill that role.
Ness needs to be all agro to be successful, which he is pretty good at. But he lacks that ability to zone someone when he needs to, so he gets blown up in the neutral game by someone who can navigate and penetrate someones "defensive zone" easily. Like Falcon or Fox.
Literally Fox's nair plane blows up any zoning Ness trys to do.
Problem2
Smash Champion
Samus's metagame is going to devolve into spamming z-air, then evolve into shutting down options from players trying to get around her z-air (eg. short hop missiles, charged shots, ice f-air).
Scythe
Smash Master
- Joined
- Dec 5, 2004
- Messages
- 3,875
if this happens i'll eat my controller.
in general this is why I prefer grouping characters, b/c to me it seems that, long term, you're gonna need at least a main and a counterpick character to get anything done, so tiering things based on that could work
all hail the pop star republic
all hail the pop star republic
Sheilda for top tier. I'm not kidding.
However, this was a notion that I actually brought up during the smashmods days: character spreads. I think I'll create a new thread for this topic because its really interesting.
As much as I'd agree with you, Lets not let the Sheilda argument rear its ugly head again.
Why would I need a character spread when I could just play fox?
Why would I need a character spread when I could just play fox?
Every time I post in here in reply to someone, and do detailing on a topic (actually this goes anywhere from this thread to Diddy/Wolf/whatever boards too), people flood in simply repeating what I say.
I think I post too quickly. Need more internet patience since it's futile to think something won't be brought up and recycled a lot on forums.
Though for Ness, similar to the direction Roy will be taking, I think Ness will just thrive more throwing out Hail-Mary Grabs in the long run, since his punishment game is huge and he lacks a solid raw-neutral.
Just speculating this based on the direction Char is going, Snake is going, DK is going, and how universally the meta-game shifts slowly (Melee too) towards that type of game against heavy raw-neutral characters like Fox, PM MK, and even characters who thrive on it as well, like Marth, who has the same high reward-for-risks thing that people neutralize by returning that game-plan against him as well.
Just some thoughts, but I think Ness is fine and a solid character. Where the solidity falters is in over-extending things that don't lead to the heavy punishes he CAN have. Like going B-Air > B-Air repeats, it's silly, and things like NOT leading basically any connected hit into a Dash-Grab is just asking to fall behind in a match. It's gotta be done, or the cheese from raw-neutral will suffocate him into the cheese of gimping him from any control of positioning/the stage... and he's so dead when that happens...
In other news, for fun, and speculation is awesome for discussion, I'm doing what this thread was originally for.
I'm always gonna have my list in 'spoilers' in this thread when I post, since it just makes more sense while I update it over time.
I'll also take it a little more seriously towards making it an accurate expression of what I think, rather than partially for lulz/not caring and just throwing things for a loop.
BCUZ I CAN
Here's my best speculation, for now.
All positions are pretty general anyway, give or take 5 and if it turns out to be more on either end, I consider it close enough. haha
It'll have arrows for rising and dropping, and always a 1-4 ratio of evenly matched and polarized match-ups, forcing me to think more accurately on little details. woop
Here's my best speculation, for now.
All positions are pretty general anyway, give or take 5 and if it turns out to be more on either end, I consider it close enough. haha
It'll have arrows for rising and dropping, and always a 1-4 ratio of evenly matched and polarized match-ups, forcing me to think more accurately on little details. woop
10 of each (1/2/3/4) change with lists
1 = even spread (can basically solo)
4 = polarizing (counters both ways)
^ rise 1 position from most recent list
v drop 1 position from most recent list
A (For Sure Good Enough Tier)
Lucas 1
Yoshi 2 ^
Wolf 1 v
Wario 1
Mewtwo 2 ^
Luigi 2 v
Peach 2 ^ ^ ^
Pikachu 2 ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^
Fox 1 ^ ^
Zero 2 v
Kirby 2 ^
Metaknight 1 v v v v v
Mario 3 v v v v v v v
Falco 1 ^
Pit 1 v v
Captain Falcon 2
Snake 3 v v v
Lucario 3
Toon Link 3 ^ ^
Charizard 4 v v v
Sheik 1 ^ ^
Sonic 1 ^ ^
Diddy Kong 3 ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^
Link 2 ^
Marth 2 ^
Ivysaur 4 v v v v
Donkey Kong 4 v v v v v v v v
Bowser 4
Squirtle 3
Ike 3
ICs 4 v v v
Ness 4 v
Roy 3 v
Zelda 4 ^ ^ ^
Jigglypuff 4 v v
Ganondorf 4 ^ ^ ^
Samus 3 v v
Mr. Game & Watch 3 v v
ROB 4 v
S (Permanent Ivan Ooze Tier)
King Dedede 1 v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v
I think I post too quickly. Need more internet patience since it's futile to think something won't be brought up and recycled a lot on forums.
Though for Ness, similar to the direction Roy will be taking, I think Ness will just thrive more throwing out Hail-Mary Grabs in the long run, since his punishment game is huge and he lacks a solid raw-neutral.
Just speculating this based on the direction Char is going, Snake is going, DK is going, and how universally the meta-game shifts slowly (Melee too) towards that type of game against heavy raw-neutral characters like Fox, PM MK, and even characters who thrive on it as well, like Marth, who has the same high reward-for-risks thing that people neutralize by returning that game-plan against him as well.
Just some thoughts, but I think Ness is fine and a solid character. Where the solidity falters is in over-extending things that don't lead to the heavy punishes he CAN have. Like going B-Air > B-Air repeats, it's silly, and things like NOT leading basically any connected hit into a Dash-Grab is just asking to fall behind in a match. It's gotta be done, or the cheese from raw-neutral will suffocate him into the cheese of gimping him from any control of positioning/the stage... and he's so dead when that happens...
In other news, for fun, and speculation is awesome for discussion, I'm doing what this thread was originally for.
I'm always gonna have my list in 'spoilers' in this thread when I post, since it just makes more sense while I update it over time.
I'll also take it a little more seriously towards making it an accurate expression of what I think, rather than partially for lulz/not caring and just throwing things for a loop.
BCUZ I CAN
Here's my best speculation, for now.
All positions are pretty general anyway, give or take 5 and if it turns out to be more on either end, I consider it close enough. haha
It'll have arrows for rising and dropping, and always a 1-4 ratio of evenly matched and polarized match-ups, forcing me to think more accurately on little details. woop
Here's my best speculation, for now.
All positions are pretty general anyway, give or take 5 and if it turns out to be more on either end, I consider it close enough. haha
It'll have arrows for rising and dropping, and always a 1-4 ratio of evenly matched and polarized match-ups, forcing me to think more accurately on little details. woop
10 of each (1/2/3/4) change with lists
1 = even spread (can basically solo)
4 = polarizing (counters both ways)
^ rise 1 position from most recent list
v drop 1 position from most recent list
A (For Sure Good Enough Tier)
Lucas 1
Yoshi 2 ^
Wolf 1 v
Wario 1
Mewtwo 2 ^
Luigi 2 v
Peach 2 ^ ^ ^
Pikachu 2 ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^
Fox 1 ^ ^
Zero 2 v
Kirby 2 ^
Metaknight 1 v v v v v
Mario 3 v v v v v v v
Falco 1 ^
Pit 1 v v
Captain Falcon 2
Snake 3 v v v
Lucario 3
Toon Link 3 ^ ^
Charizard 4 v v v
Sheik 1 ^ ^
Sonic 1 ^ ^
Diddy Kong 3 ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^
Link 2 ^
Marth 2 ^
Ivysaur 4 v v v v
Donkey Kong 4 v v v v v v v v
Bowser 4
Squirtle 3
Ike 3
ICs 4 v v v
Ness 4 v
Roy 3 v
Zelda 4 ^ ^ ^
Jigglypuff 4 v v
Ganondorf 4 ^ ^ ^
Samus 3 v v
Mr. Game & Watch 3 v v
ROB 4 v
S (Permanent Ivan Ooze Tier)
King Dedede 1 v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O-g4TqMFemY
It's no fair mangz
Edit: Forgot mah rulez
Here's my best speculation, for now.
All positions are pretty general anyway, give or take 5 and if it turns out to be more on either end, I consider it close enough. haha
It'll have arrows for rising and dropping, and always a 1-4 ratio of evenly matched and polarized match-ups, forcing me to think more accurately on little details. woop
10 of each (1/2/3/4) change with lists
1 = even spread (can basically solo)
4 = polarizing (counters both ways)
^ rise 1 position from most recent list
v drop 1 position from most recent list
A (For Sure Good Enough Tier)
Lucas 1
Yoshi 2 ^
Wolf 1 v
Wario 1
Mewtwo 2 ^
Luigi 2 v
Peach 2 ^ ^ ^
Pikachu 2 ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^
Fox 1 ^ ^
Zero 2 v
Kirby 2 ^
Metaknight 1 v v v v v
Mario 3 v v v v v v v
Falco 1 ^
Pit 1 v v
Captain Falcon 2
Snake 3 v v v
Lucario 3
Toon Link 3 ^ ^
Charizard 4 v v v
Sheik 1 ^ ^
Sonic 1 ^ ^
Diddy Kong 3 ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^
Link 2 ^
Marth 2 ^
Ivysaur 4 v v v v
Donkey Kong 4 v v v v v v v v
Bowser 4
Squirtle 3
Ike 3
ICs 4 v v v
Ness 4 v
Roy 3 v
Zelda 4 ^ ^ ^
Jigglypuff 4 v v
Ganondorf 4 ^ ^ ^
Samus 3 v v
Mr. Game & Watch 3 v v
ROB 4 v
S (Permanent Ivan Ooze Tier)
King Dedede 1 v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v
Sarix
Smash Ace
Yeah I doubt we'll repeat Brawl lol. Zair basically makes her linger in her most vulnerable state so I don't see why anyone would try to make it core to her game.
Nguz95
Smash Lord
Nausicaa, you had Pikachu going way up in your list. Could you please explain your reasoning? Also, why did you have Pit move down? He has recieved significant buffs this version, and he's always been a really solid character.
Anyway, good list. I think I'll copy your format, as it makes a lot of sense.
Anyway, good list. I think I'll copy your format, as it makes a lot of sense.
Archangel
Smash Hero
I'm honestly shocked at the idea of samus still being samus as if....samus sucks?
I'm not sure it's really dawned on anybody what samus is capable of now. Aside from the obvious changes that improve her overall like the ice moveset and the Zairs....has anybody...and I mean ANYONE put together what you can do with the super easy super wavedash functions yet? I know superwavedash has become less and less of a thing in Melee but....but...mess around with it for a good hour or 2 if you aren't a samus main....try some things from these videos if you aren't creative.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wYlXIjMfWbE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t9sa8133NBI#t=1m20s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t9sa8133NBI#t=2m40s
i know it's not done under "normal" gameplay but you'd all be very shocked at how much of the samus things work in PM.
I'm not sure it's really dawned on anybody what samus is capable of now. Aside from the obvious changes that improve her overall like the ice moveset and the Zairs....has anybody...and I mean ANYONE put together what you can do with the super easy super wavedash functions yet? I know superwavedash has become less and less of a thing in Melee but....but...mess around with it for a good hour or 2 if you aren't a samus main....try some things from these videos if you aren't creative.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wYlXIjMfWbE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t9sa8133NBI#t=1m20s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t9sa8133NBI#t=2m40s
i know it's not done under "normal" gameplay but you'd all be very shocked at how much of the samus things work in PM.
SWD is cool but it's not that crazy for offensive applications. The biggest draw back is the huge visual clue from bombing to prepare it: you can't really "surprise" someone as well due to this. For sliding, there's a period after bombing where she stand up fully but you are still lagging. This lets many projectile users stop her fun. This also occurs if you SWD near an edge and fly off very early: she's still technically recovering from the bombing state and she can't act "instantly" out of it.
I have been fooling around with it for awhile (doing it in Melee was fun too). Doing it from the ledge, weaving any directions before doing SWD, jumping through platforms and doing it, etc. It is very neat and has some potential, but you might be overthinking how useful it is.
I have been fooling around with it for awhile (doing it in Melee was fun too). Doing it from the ledge, weaving any directions before doing SWD, jumping through platforms and doing it, etc. It is very neat and has some potential, but you might be overthinking how useful it is.
Kink-Link5
Smash Hero
...And then lose to players with even the remotest semblance of spacing knowledge.
Ness is booty butt cheeks forever.
, there are more option out of it than most people are aware of.
Diddy Kong
Smash Obsessed
- Joined
- Dec 8, 2004
- Messages
- 26,380
- Switch FC
- SW-1597-979602774
At times like these I hate myself for not being technical enough to make PM work cause I live in PAL-region.
Did I say approach with it? No.
Kink-Link5
Smash Hero
School is a ***** and I can't find a 2hu arrange for the next character.
As opposed to, what, spacing/retreating with Falco's dair?
I often notice I underrate the character in PM, and most do more than me, so I can get influenced being all human and stuff too. This is a bit of a revision of that, but otherwise, for 3.0 specifically, the new QA1 brings in all the 'crazy QAC' things everyone always talked about like silly-pants about the character in earlier incarnations. He was solid from it for other reasons, and couldn't really do QAC things to any decent caliber, it just wasn't a factor that made Pika work. With that speed increase, that 'stale-mate-the-rat so we can neutralize his approach' game-plan got a big hit in the face, and Pika actually received that 'opening' of his game that people were afraid of. I was already seeing Pika as a beast, but now I'm just kind of scared of him...
Samus doesn't suck, she's a beast and will still be a tournament-threat at that (more than in Melee too, of course), she just doesn't break stuff as much as others, and somebody has to be a 'baddy' lol
You can stick out angle F-Tilt's at a bomb-landing tilt and stuff any SWD thing, even the DSWD is linear. It's not obsolete, quite the opposite, it's crazy good. To say it breaks her game or even that it's the thing that makes her 'so much better' than she would be WITHOUT it, is pretty short-sighted, as if it's the option that will open up her game without any draw-backs or precision tasks involved. hehe
Samus things work fine, but the addition of Roll and U-Smash don't really affect her much given how she always had a great OOS game anyway. Now, it's more diverse, and you could say threatening, since there's more options and Up-B OOS isn't as safe in PM. The addition of Crawling, the Crawling Attack, and DSWD, open up a lot of evasion in offense and the raw-neutral game, but this contradicts her forte since she lacks any succession quick-pokes from close up outside of Jab, unlike Squirt or something who can actually make use of it as a utility tool for his BnB, more than a 'niche-opportunity-option' that wasn't there before.
She's still going to F-Tilt, and do Samus-stuff. It will work too. With bigger stages, characters that kill floaters easier, more cheese, more linear recovery, a more normalized grab, whatever, the NEW functional parts of her game don't help her corner characters more, catch people out of neutrals more, help her camp safer, help her pressure better, or anything like that.
They do provide more, and that's great, but Hail-Mary approaches with SWD and approaches with Shield > U-Smash, or the less stream-lined OOS/ranged pressure/aggressively passive play, only go so far.
Edit: Almost forgot mah rulez
Here's my best speculation, for now.
All positions are pretty general anyway, give or take 5 and if it turns out to be more on either end, I consider it close enough. haha
It'll have arrows for rising and dropping, and always a 1-4 ratio of evenly matched and polarized match-ups, forcing me to think more accurately on little details. woop
10 of each (1/2/3/4) change with lists
1 = even spread (can basically solo)
4 = polarizing (counters both ways)
^ rise 1 position from most recent list
v drop 1 position from most recent list
A (For Sure Good Enough Tier)
Lucas 1
Yoshi 2 ^
Wolf 1 v
Wario 1
Mewtwo 2 ^
Luigi 2 v
Peach 2 ^ ^ ^
Pikachu 2 ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^
Fox 1 ^ ^
Zero 2 v
Kirby 2 ^
Metaknight 1 v v v v v
Mario 3 v v v v v v v
Falco 1 ^
Pit 1 v v
Captain Falcon 2
Snake 3 v v v
Lucario 3
Toon Link 3 ^ ^
Charizard 4 v v v
Sheik 1 ^ ^
Sonic 1 ^ ^
Diddy Kong 3 ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^
Link 2 ^
Marth 2 ^
Ivysaur 4 v v v v
Donkey Kong 4 v v v v v v v v
Bowser 4
Squirtle 3
Ike 3
ICs 4 v v v
Ness 4 v
Roy 3 v
Zelda 4 ^ ^ ^
Jigglypuff 4 v v
Ganondorf 4 ^ ^ ^
Samus 3 v v
Mr. Game & Watch 3 v v
ROB 4 v
S (Permanent Ivan Ooze Tier)
King Dedede 1 v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v
Sashimi
Smash Ace
- Joined
- May 25, 2013
- Messages
- 704
I'm curious, who would you say counters Yoshi?
They nerfed the range on Olimar too much IMO. His f-smash and Grab range could stand to go back up a bit. Not Brawl range, but it feels really short right now.
Also that increased start-up on his D-air also seemed kinda...unnecessary. Considering we have other spikes and meteors in the game that are stupid fast.
@Kink, as in spam it in combos and follow ups, I'd rather be tech chasing someone all the time rather then trying to extend a combo with a magnet, uair, or fair. At least the way I play Ness. Anytime I see someone use the magnet in a video aI always think a Dair would have been a better move to use.
Also that increased start-up on his D-air also seemed kinda...unnecessary. Considering we have other spikes and meteors in the game that are stupid fast.
@Kink, as in spam it in combos and follow ups, I'd rather be tech chasing someone all the time rather then trying to extend a combo with a magnet, uair, or fair. At least the way I play Ness. Anytime I see someone use the magnet in a video aI always think a Dair would have been a better move to use.
Vashimus
Smash Master
:D ....
Silly Kally Wally, I know that's you.
Peach, Sheik, and definitely Samus. Not sure about any of the Brawl cast.
Pseudomaniac
Smash Journeyman
What's everyone's opinions on Mewtwo so far? He's a ton of fun, but how do you think he'll fare competitively?
He's cool and crazy up close, but it's weird because your best options still feel like spacing Dtilt/Bair/Utilt/etc. As awesome as his Fair and Nair are, they serve him little for approaching, and it doesn't feel that easy to actually get in. Once you do though, you can do some very cool footstool and float tricks that it's hard to list the gauntlet of possibilities. Someone might even find abusive uses for Upb, since you can attack out of it (still not that happy about this change, but no one's effectively broken it to the degree I've worried about)
Kink-Link5
Smash Hero
Well there's your problem. You are trying to use moves that AREN'T side-B. When you learn to use moves that are side-B, you'll do much better in no time!
Kink-Link5
Smash Hero
I was certainly hoping for Neko's concept.
Lower number of max Pikmin (3)
Higher Pikmin Health
Further differentiated Pikmin attributes
Pikmin don't cycle when using attacks, only when down B is used
Makes him less focused on holding forward and pressing B, and makes him a unique stance change character (Instead we get... Samus as that?)
The fact that Pikmin rotate on use is what makes me not like Olimar, and for me that's a shame because I think Pikmin is among the best series I've ever played and I adore that series and Olimar as a character something fierce.
It would make Pikmin usage feel a lot more rewarding and intuitive, at least in my opinion.
It's honestly clunky to manage your Pikmin as it stands, even with the extremely fast whistle with what feels like instant IASA frames. The reward for doing so doesn't feel as rewarding as just spamming them in whatever order they are in naturally.
It would make Pikmin usage feel a lot more rewarding and intuitive, at least in my opinion.
It's honestly clunky to manage your Pikmin as it stands, even with the extremely fast whistle with what feels like instant IASA frames. The reward for doing so doesn't feel as rewarding as just spamming them in whatever order they are in naturally.
Vashimus
Smash Master
I'm just gonna come out and say it. Olimar's design is the most half-assed of all the Brawl characters in P:M.