Tier List Speculation

[Ripple]

That sorta makes sense, but at the same time isn't it kind of arbitrary? Why did characters with questionable defenses also get questionable dodges? lol

because those characters are very heavy which is designed to "balance" them.

it didn't work in PM but thats the intention.

 

[Luk101]

Samus' spotdodge was nerfed by 2 frames iirc with the last normalization. Might have been some weird length change plus invincibility change I don't remember. I'm salty about my over 100% ledge attack invincibility nerf though. "GUN PUNCH" was my strongest secret technique.

The gun punch had a lot of extra inv. frames?

 

[Chevy]

The gun punch had a lot of extra inv. frames?

Apparently it had an extra active frame, and an extra 7 frames of invincibility for some reason. I believe it matches Melee/other ledge attacks now.

 

[DMG]

That set was pretty mild. Lunchables vs Bagelz on Dreamland was like 5x worse than anything I saw in that set with Thunderz. If people really feel triggered, they should watch my old Brawl sets that go to time.

 

[Player -0]

so how am I supposed to edgeguard Ike again?

he has a spinny hitbox and his falling down hitbox starts kinda early

I never really got it

 

[Frost | Odds]

there is no hitbox when he's jumping up to meet the sword

 

[CORY]

so how am I supposed to edgeguard Ike again?

he has a spinny hitbox and his falling down hitbox starts kinda early

I never really got it

who do you play? a lot of characters can space and time aerials to go underneath the sword and catch him as he jumps up to it, or if you sniff out a sweetspot attempt, go over/behind him and do the same. you could also be real tricksy and time ledge grab invuln for an edgehog, but that's a bit scary.

 

[ThegreatVaporeon1]

GnW is dumb, etc, etc

 

[Jolteon]

*insert GnW salt*

 

[eideeiit]

My suggestion for fixing PM:

 

[Leafeon]

so how am I supposed to edgeguard Ike again?

he has a spinny hitbox and his falling down hitbox starts kinda early

I never really got it

From one pikachu player to another
Ike is extremely easy to edgeguard.

Throw a thunderjolt to prevent side B recovery
if he upBs for ledge, steal it with quick attack and do a normal getup to edgeguard sheik-style.
If he does upbs right above ledge you can just forward tilt him

Go watch some anther vs ally vods, I think they're on clash tournaments' youtube

 

[steelguttey]

still think gnw is overrated as hell even after that tournament. people gotta understand that you need to catch him on the active frames of his moves and dont try to punish his endlag (surprise, he doesnt have much) cus thats where you get caught by dtilts

 

[Player -0]

I was playing some Falcon because lol.

I was playing really jittery/bad but I tried:
- Meeting him at the top with knee (my timing was super dead though).
- similar situation to Marthkiller, back to ledge and shielding. Jump OoS -> Bair at top. The spinny hitbox bopped me and spiked into stage into lol.
- yolo "DAIR RAINS FROM ABOVE." DI into the stage though. It works about as well as you'd expect.
- killing myself to make him get off ledge. It worked kinda.

Spoiler

Personally it would've been cool if spinny hitbox was kill and down hit thing was moved back 1-2 frames but vertical ledge grab was increased so he can sweetspot a tad better but that's not going to happen so how do I stop being bad?

 

[CORY]

oh, as falcon?
DMG how do you ike?

 

[DMG]

If Ike does low sweetspot, he cannot avoid Falcon Dair winning or trading (also risks Falcon grabbing the edge in timely manner and doing regular ledge roll edgeguard). If he does it a certain tiny bit over the edge, whether it's just his head poking over or whether he is high enough to land onstage, you can Knee him and generally trade (entirely possible to not get hit, but even I mostly get the trade). The secret is to hit him when he rises up, hitboxes change/disappear/shrink while he does this and it allows for silly things.

Even back in 2.6 or whichever patch he had even MORE hitbox coverage on spinning Upb Blade, I was already winning with Knee and mostly trading with stomp.

 

[trash?]

how Mr Lz is so calm about people raging over him is a sight to behold. also, the fact that there's this one salty player on reddit saying we need to break a legal grey area and make a new version just to nerf GnW is pretty hilarious

does fox still beat up GnW pretty hard? I always recalled him doing pretty standard fox conversions against GnW and succeeding greatly

 

[Tomaster]

still think gnw is overrated as hell even after that tournament. people gotta understand that you need to catch him on the active frames of his moves and dont try to punish his endlag (surprise, he doesnt have much) cus thats where you get caught by dtilts

Almost everything G&W has (range, disjoint, priority, bacon) counters that strategy.

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

why people are mad at gnw and not diddy I will never understand

do people just not like getting hit by parachute or dtilt?

idgi

 

[Life]

Perceived ease of play, combined with having a playstyle where you choke the opponent out with longlasting hitboxes, combined with a lot of perceived rule-breaking attributes like jump after upB/crazy magnet hands/bucket braking/ambiguous throw animations, plus some really questionable animation/hitbox properties (particularly dtilt), plus an RNG move, plus being hard to combo whilst getting some pretty hard combos himself.

I don't mind him, but it's not surprising he's a massive salt magnet. See also 3.5 Luigi, parts of 3.5 Roy and ROB, 3.02 Zelda (and a lot of other pre-3.5 characters I'm not masochistic enough to try to enumerate), Smash 4's top tiers (Bayonetta in particular), every iteration of ICs... Also major salt magnets with a lot of the same attributes.

Oh, and there's the annoying taunt cancel sound.

Frankly, I'm kind of sick of character-based salt in general, but it's kind of a fact of character-based competitive games, so like what am I even supposed to do

 

[Luk101]

Were people SDI ing up b at SNS2? Or is Mr.Lz just a gahd?

 

[Ripple]

how Mr Lz is so calm about people raging over him is a sight to behold. also, the fact that there's this one salty player on reddit saying we need to break a legal grey area and make a new version just to nerf GnW is pretty hilarious

It's easy to stay calm when you're the one who set fire to the world below.

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

Perceived ease of play, combined with having a playstyle where you choke the opponent out with longlasting hitboxes, combined with a lot of perceived rule-breaking attributes like jump after upB/crazy magnet hands/bucket braking/ambiguous throw animations, plus some really questionable animation/hitbox properties (particularly dtilt), plus an RNG move, plus being hard to combo whilst getting some pretty hard combos himself.

I don't mind him, but it's not surprising he's a massive salt magnet. See also 3.5 Luigi, parts of 3.5 Roy and ROB, 3.02 Zelda (and a lot of other pre-3.5 characters I'm not masochistic enough to try to enumerate), Smash 4's top tiers (Bayonetta in particular), every iteration of ICs... Also major salt magnets with a lot of the same attributes.

Oh, and there's the annoying taunt cancel sound.

Frankly, I'm kind of sick of character-based salt in general, but it's kind of a fact of character-based competitive games, so like what am I even supposed to do

tbf 3.5 luigi was actually the highest tier placement, relatively, that luigi has ever been

if we had 3.6 platform movement development and misfire farming strategies in 3.5 combined with the fod-high down b good lord I weep for what was lost that we didn't even know we had

 

[DMG]

how Mr Lz is so calm about people raging over him is a sight to behold

I think anyone could ignore the rage if you toss thousands of dollars at them for playing a video game.

 

[DMG]

Were people SDI ing up b at SNS2? Or is Mr.Lz just a gahd?

Well it's not Fox Uair where you say git gud and SDI. You could have fantastic SDI, but guess entirely wrong on his angle or deal with his pretty noticeable frame advantage if he hits you later in the move. Matters more to DI and SDI away strong Dtilt hits, or refuse to get grabbed

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

I think anyone could ignore the rage if you toss thousands of dollars at them for playing a video game.

haters can't get past dtilt

 

[DMG]

PM is so fun and balanced. Anyone can win. BUT I BETTER LIKE THE CHARACTER THAT WINS OR ELSE IT'S CANCER!

Makes me wonder why we still have tournaments for PM anymore

 

[Kipcom]

PM is so fun and balanced. Anyone can win.

I don't think anyone actually thinks that anymore (The last statement, that is).

At least I hope not.

 

[ThegreatVaporeon1]

GnW's jump after Up b is my biggest complaint about him. It makes it incredibly difficult to edgeguard him at times, and the gnw can usually mix up when he wants to burn that second jump.

But, no i agree with Life. His tools are salt-inducing, but we need to adapt to it. There's always going to be that one really good character that's also a pain to fight against. Gotta deal.

 

[Life]

I'm trying to construct a GnW edgeguarding flowchart in my mind.

Starting from sweetspot upB, which loses to grab edge (unless DJ is saved, in which case that must also be covered, probably with invincible aerials?), which loses to earlier upB timing, which loses to whatever covers missed sweetspots on your character, which lose to sweetspot upB but also a much earlier upB timing where you have to cover the endlag in the air? And that's just low recovery.

But of course all these options are not simultaneous but are staggered in time, meaning certain setups may cover at least all those late options, provided GnW goes low enough.

Still thinking about things that cover earlier upB options. And there's the double jump to consider.

Going offstage is probably a no-no unless you have ways to get back to ledge very quickly, i.e. you're a tether character or a space animal or maybe a few others I can't think of; and then can get onstage quick enough to cover whatever option you forced out of GNW by going offstage, meaning you're comfy with your ledgedashes.

 

[Journal]

Why isn't Lucas top tier again? Nobody seems to put him there, but his neutral and punishments seem godlike. He struggles a little with recovery but at least he's got a tether to mix it up.

 

[DMG]

Breaks fingers, people get confuddled over options

 

[Life]

Lucas' neutral actually isn't that crazy, since he doesn't have the great hitboxes to go along with his speed like Fox/MK or the stage control of Diddy. It's really more similar to Wolf, but Wolf has a similar-but-better projectile and a shine to cover his jump-ins.

 

[MartinWolfe686]

Lucas' neutral requires a lot of crying vs Marth.

 

[Player -0]

in my experience the spacing for stuff becomes meticulous.

and I don't even use Lucas in tournaments. Probably spaghetti fingers there.

 

[Boiko]

One small example:

Lz consistently got away with short hop>double bacon>dtilt. Players would run in to punish the end lag of bacon, and get hit by dtilt. This happened quite a few times, to quite a few different players.

Understandably, that is only one example, but it just goes to show that players were failing to adapt and failing to recognize something that they were getting hit by. I get that it's hard, because he uses bacon in a very safe way, but I'm surprised more players didn't run up shield, or dash in WD back, or do something to bait the dtilt.

I think G&W is a great character, and I think Lz is a great player. I don't think his opponents were playing the MU particularly well, and they suffered for that. As a result of that, I think that all of the salt about G&W is misplaced. Sure, he has very safe frame data, he hits very hard, he lives very long. But I think the counter play can be improved to a significant degree.

I get that a certain character can be frustrating, confusing, difficult to deal with, etc. But, this is the game in its final form. You need to find something that works. Do something differently. If all else fails, try a new character. I absolutely despise the Wario MU with Ness. But, if Jose V. can beat Sosa, then there has to be more that I could be doing to improve in the MU. Just another way of thinking about things.

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

remember how rmr lz hasn't won a national since paragon close to a year ago while junebug has won like 4 in that time

nerf diddy

 

[Deleted member]

i think part of the salt is that theres a powerful, easy character while the counterplay against it is unintuitive, difficult, and only questionably effective. so lets say you see sh double bacon into dtilt conversion and make note of it. well, how well can you really negotiate it and/or punish it? what if you are good at the MU and adapt properly and still lose? we've seen time and again where "snake loses the MU" but no one seems to know what snake loses to or why with any consistency. before this weekend, everyone swore up and down that gaw loses to swords. it could be that people need to learn to adapt, but it could also be that adaptation doesnt cut it anyway. and that is a very salt inducing character.

 

[DMG]

Aki beat them with Ness. Fight Salt with Sparkle Hands

 

[MartinWolfe686]

Ness is worse Lucas Kappa

 

[Professor Pro]

PM: Where players with amazing skill () come to complain