Tier List Speculation

[ilysm]

If a character has shorter jumpsquat, then the time they need to wait before sliding is shorter, leading to a faster wavedash. Not sure about the lag from actually airdodging into the stage though.

EDIT: I actually think that we're talking about two different kinds of speeds here. Correct me if I'm wrong, but Gravy is talking about the momentum the character moves with during the actual wavedash (and I believe is correct in his assertions), where I am talking about the amount of total frames it takes to initiate the wavedash.

 

[Ripple]

lag from landing from an air dodge is universal at 10 frames

 

[TheGravyTrain]

I was referring to the speed they travel on the ground, not the jumpsquat. The difference jumpsquats make is fairly negligible imo (unless you are weird and play DDD or something...). The difference between a 3 framer and a 5 framer is 2 frames after all.

 

[Ripple]

speed they travel on the ground is determined by friction

 

[Life]

Walking speed is also a factor. Bowser and Marth have the same friction value (EDIT: In Melee. Dunno if PM changed this.) but dramatically different wavedashes. I forget exactly how the math works out, but I think it's just doubled friction if you're moving faster than walking speed?

 

[Lens]

Lucario is still slightly faster and heavier than Sheik so in the end he's probably got what he needs to play that DD/CC game.
Fun little statistic: he's one of the four characters that is at or above Marth/Sheik run speed while also being at or above Mario bros weight (the other 3 being Falcon, DK, Zard).
Not to mention he's got the advantage of OHC, which makes his CC a little iffy to play around by potentially blowing through a lot of the CC or shields that would otherwise threaten his space with grabs.
That's my understanding of the whole "Lucario's neutral is fine" talk. He's still got some clear issues, but there's a solid base to work off of that's not particularly exploitable.

 

[Bazkip]

According to this thread: http://smashboards.com/threads/pm-3-5-stats-list-still-wip-wavedash-ranks-added.335019/, lucario has the 4th worst wavedash. Otherwise, I agree that he is pretty fast.

While it's correct in this case that thread is outdated, you shouldn't be pointing towards it.
Refer to this instead https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Yjp0AT4wJba-1ZJ284__Ts1A6NTVKx3y8fnfO9AWwVg/

 

[Strong Badam]

Walking speed is also a factor. Bowser and Marth have the same friction value (EDIT: In Melee. Dunno if PM changed this.) but dramatically different wavedashes. I forget exactly how the math works out, but I think it's just doubled friction if you're moving faster than walking speed?

If your current speed is greater than your maximum walking speed, your friction is doubled until such time as your speed is lower than your maximum walking speed.

 

[Zoa]

Huh. So if I'm understanding this correctly there's a 10 frame landing penalty out of air dodges, which carries over into the wavedash. So the FAF is 11, correct? And if your current speed exceeds your maximum walking speed, then your wavedash will be shorter due to double the friction/traction until the moment your speed decreases below maximum walk speed?

 

[Life]

Wavedash lag is the character's jumpsquat, plus one airborne frame due to PM's physics delay, plus the ten frame universal landing lag after airdodge.

 

[Luk101]

So Marth has such a good wavedash because he has one of the fastest walk speeds, meanwhile bowser has like the slowest walk speed so he accelerates the same initially but stops really fast?

Also Bazkip , yeah I know it's outdated, but I find this one much easier to find info personally.

 

[Zoa]

Thanks, Life . That's what I needed to know.

 

[steelguttey]

ordered within tiers cus i dont pull that ***** ****

 

[KinGly]

View attachment 108078
ordered within tiers cus i dont pull that ***** ****

I'll ask about the obvious one I guess.

Why's Diddy not top 3-5 in your opinion? Everyone else posting here seems to think hes fourth at worst.

 

[Luk101]

View attachment 108078
ordered within tiers cus i dont pull that ***** ****

Snake is far too low considering his consistent results, and the meta not really seeming to work not in his favor.

 

[steelguttey]

I'll ask about the obvious one I guess.

Why's Diddy not top 3-5 in your opinion? Everyone else posting here seems to think hes fourth at worst.

diddy is overrated as ****. he has the best results of any character but thats just because he has so many even/slightly good mu's and no really bad mu's, so if u have a player thats good enough (junebug) he wont get countered and he usually has a good bracket. the thing is tho, diddy has very few extremely good matchups and he does have quite a few slightly losing matchups, like spacies, a few floaties, fe, mewtwo and maybe some others that arent fleshed out

Snake is far too low considering his consistent results, and the meta not really seeming to work not in his favor.

anti snake meta is really underdeveloped rn cus he has a bad problem with small charactwrs and characters that are faster than him.

 

[JOE!]

Anti snake meta is going to be slow to develop since they are relatively rare and then play so differently that it is difficult to adjust, at least mid-tourney.

 

[Journal]

diddy is overrated as ****. he has the best results of any character but thats just because he has so many even/slightly good mu's and no really bad mu's, so if u have a player thats good enough (junebug) he wont get countered and he usually has a good bracket. the thing is tho, diddy has very few extremely good matchups and he does have quite a few slightly losing matchups, like spacies, a few floaties, fe, mewtwo and maybe some others that arent fleshed out

Yeah but he also has the options to deal with basically any situation in the game and with a banana in hand he has the most threatening dash dance/stage control in the game.

 

[Bazkip]

What I'm wondering the most about that tier list is what's up with the weird lines above the character portraits.

 

[trash?]

What I'm wondering the most about that tier list is what's up with the weird lines above the character portraits.

all the images are slightly offset vertically, if you put those lines at the bottom of each portrait it'd line up perfectly

...except why is it doing that? that's a strange glitch

 

[eideeiit]

Oh boy, we're posting tier lists formed by bias and stalking a thread with people that aren't really that well informed again?

Count me in!

Pretty much ordered, yes, I am that stupid.
top 20 ends at snek.

no real well-thought reasons for anything but the circlejerk in here and my gut feeling got by playing netplay with flavor of the week mains and getting fukt by a diddy at 3 locals. lmao

Spoiler

This is actually the first time I bothered writing a tier list down. These things are mostly a waste of time.

 

[Soft Serve]

diddy is overrated as ****. he has the best results of any character but thats just because he has so many even/slightly good mu's and no really bad mu's, so if u have a player thats good enough (junebug) he wont get countered and he usually has a good bracket. the thing is tho, diddy has very few extremely good matchups and he does have quite a few slightly losing matchups, like spacies, a few floaties, fe, mewtwo and maybe some others that arent fleshed out


anti snake meta is really underdeveloped rn cus he has a bad problem with small charactwrs and characters that are faster than him.

I dont really agree with him not having a lot of extremely good match-ups. I think when played optimally he invalidates a significant % of the cast. I do think he has too many bad and slightly losing MUs for him to be top 2-3 though. ****ting on all the bad characters doesn't make up for struggling a lot vs samus/peach/mewtwo/sonic/squirtle, having slightly losing MUs to fox/lucas/shiek (junebug has mario/marth on this grouping of -1 as well, I'd put puff/zelda/yoshi here too). He does have a fantastic MU spread though, a lot of effectively even or winning MUs vs important characters in the meta, like wolf/wario/falcon/zss/falco/mk/snake/rob/gnw/lucario.

unpopular opinion time: Shielda is the best character in the game still, or at least completely tied with fox/wolf/mk/diddy

 

[Boiko]

I dont really agree with him not having a lot of extremely good match-ups. I think when played optimally he invalidates a significant % of the cast. I do think he has too many bad and slightly losing MUs for him to be top 2-3 though. ****ting on all the bad characters doesn't make up for struggling a lot vs samus/peach/mewtwo/sonic/squirtle, having slightly losing MUs to fox/lucas/shiek (junebug has mario/marth on this grouping of -1 as well, I'd put puff/zelda/yoshi here too). He does have a fantastic MU spread though, a lot of effectively even or winning MUs vs important characters in the meta, like wolf/wario/falcon/zss/falco/mk/snake/rob/gnw/lucario.

unpopular opinion time: Shielda is the best character in the game still, or at least completely tied with fox/wolf/mk/diddy

Sheilda is two characters that still lose to Wolf/Fox/MK and others. Realistically, Sheilda is probably in the same spot as Sheik since you don't get that much utility out Zelda.

 

[Life]

The whole reason people get hype for Sheilda is that she naturally subverts the counterpick system by existing. But yeah, I'm not sure which character/stage combinations you'd benefit from switching to Zelda from, aside from maybe like Jiggs? Also, certain specific players tilt really hard when they go against Zelda, so that helps.

I think Sheik is plenty good enough to stand on her own without Zelda, anyway.

 

[_Chrome]

I think Squirtle and Kirby would be good switches too. Not too sure about any others though.

 

[Deleted member]

The whole reason people get hype for Sheilda is that she naturally subverts the counterpick system by existing. But yeah, I'm not sure which character/stage combinations you'd benefit from switching to Zelda from, aside from maybe like Jiggs?

imo zelda is better than sheik against chars like falco samus wolf roy, although there doesnt seem to be any real unifying reason behind it. the real issue is that zelda and sheik both have issues with the same thing, which is a general inability to approach.

 

[MTL Kyle]

Every time someone puts Sheik in the top 10, I die a little inside.

 

[Bazkip]

Kyle, you're dumb

 

[Foo]

Every time someone puts Sheik in the top 10, I die a little inside.

You must be quite dead, then.

 

[MTL Kyle]

Kyle, you're dumb

Mr. Ganon is not viable and objectively worst character there is :^)

You must be quite dead, then.

Can't help that people keep losing to a bad character

 

[Bazkip]

Mr. Ganon is not viable and objectively worst character there is :^)

Damn you sure showed me by pointing out my belief that a bad character is bad.

Though I don't think he's the worst character and you know that.

 

[Tomaster]

I gotta say it is good to have you back kyle

 

[_Chrome]

I think Sheik is probably in the top 10. She loses to MK, Fox, Falco, maybe Wolf, probably Peach in this game, her Samus mu got worse... personally, I think there's a significant gap between the viability of MK and that of Sheik, so I can see what you're getting at MTL Kyle and I think people overrate her, but she's still pretty good against the mid-tier floaties that this game runs rampant with.

 

[MTL Kyle]

Damn you sure showed me by pointing out my belief that a bad character is bad.

Though I don't think he's the worst character and you know that.

u r dumb

I think Sheik is probably in the top 10. She loses to MK, Fox, Falco, maybe Wolf, probably Peach in this game, her Samus mu got worse... personally, I think there's a significant gap between the viability of MK and that of Sheik, so I can see what you're getting at MTL Kyle and I think people overrate her, but she's still pretty good against the mid-tier floaties that this game runs rampant with.

On top of my head, characters that have better matchup spread and are flat out better than Sheik

1Samus
2ROB
3Fox
4Wolf
5Ike
6Falcon
7Wario
8TLink
9Game&Watch
10Mewtwo

yeah, Sheik sucks and is not top 10. Most people that put Sheik there just lose to their local level players and get salty.

 

[KinGly]

MrLz made a tier list that's pretty different from the standard. Fox, Sheik, ZSS, Ness, Ivy, and a few others are all in pretty different spots from what everyone else has been saying.

 

[Tomaster]

On top of my head, characters that have better matchup spread and are flat out better than Sheik


Ike

no

 

[_Chrome]

u r dumb



On top of my head, characters that have better matchup spread and are flat out better than Sheik

1Samus
2ROB
3Fox
4Wolf
5Ike
6Falcon
7Wario
8TLink
9Game&Watch
10Mewtwo

yeah, Sheik sucks and is not top 10. Most people that put Sheik there just lose to their local level players and get salty.

>Sees Ike listed as having a better matchup spread than Sheik
>Said he can see where Kyle is coming from

"Your honour, I'd like to retract my previous statement." You do realize Ike's frame data is utter trash, right? Like the guy is so freaking slow that I can't see him being a true force in the meta game.

 

[Deleted member]

i think sheik loses to fox mk wolf gaw for sure, jury still out on a few others. as a sheik player, shes very obv top ten no questions lol

 

[MTL Kyle]

MrLz made a tier list that's pretty different from the standard. Fox, Sheik, ZSS, Ness, Ivy, and a few others are all in pretty different spots from what everyone else has been saying.

I respect this 100x more than any other **** posted over here lol

i think sheik loses to fox mk wolf gaw for sure, jury still out on a few others. as a sheik player, shes very obv top ten no questions lol

I whole heartedly disagree, but that's just an opinion lol

>Sees Ike listed as having a better matchup spread than Sheik
>Said he can see where Kyle is coming from

"Your honour, I'd like to retract my previous statement." You do realize Ike's frame data is utter trash, right? Like the guy is so freaking slow that I can't see him being a true force in the meta game.

Best Canadian player is an Ike main and has really good tournament wins + set count against a lot of top players, IDK about that LOL

 

[shairn]

Ike's moves have overall longer endlag(landing lag notwithstanding, they're all pretty quick in that regard), but his hitboxes come out pretty quickly given his strength. Nair and bair come out somewhere between frames 5-10 and have really low landing lag. As for uair, fair and dair, they're almost guaranteed on most of the cast at a wide variety of percents after a fthrow/uthrow, so their speed is irrelevant. Also did he lose QD or what? QD is pretty much the best mobility option in the game.

If Ike seems slow and bulky it's only because you're not using his tools right.