Tier List Speculation

[steelguttey]

like yeah you can pretend you have real angles but you really don't

what does this even mean

 

[MTL Kyle]

AKA she is viable because she might not run into Toon Link.

I had an extensive post explaining her hardships but like... in a 2048-man bracket, you are playing up to 14~28 matches.
You can actually run an entire bracket without playing bad matchups. In fact, because of certain characters being more used, there are even less chances of certain matches happening, as other characters might weed out Peach counters.

Having a decent Toon Link or Link in your region makes things hard, there are other matchups that are as impossible as them to Peach (ROB, MK come to mind) and you can still run a whole bracket without meeting one.

Peach can be developed in the game even further, I don't see any other full time Peach main in PM other than Malachi (eg.: Peaches that actually know how to AGT LMAO) and with the death of the game, I do not believe we are seeing her in the potential.

As it is, Peach is a really good spot because Falcon/Fox are still OU and they sorta weed out Peach's horrible matchups, while being manageable themselves. I would put her in the lower end of the tier list because I'm a giant Peach pessimist tho LMAO

 

[DMG]

So I'm not the only Peach pessimist!

 

[Warzenschwein]

smh at the "unfinished game" yak. Official Smash titles make it look like they just dropped everything during character balance / design and decided to walk away too, only magnitudes worse than in PM.

 

[MTL Kyle]

smh at the "unfinished game" yak. Official Smash titles make it look like they just dropped everything during character balance / design and decided to walk away too, only magnitudes worse than in PM.

mfw people still get triggered about this while dismissing big issues with the game.

Yoshi got rushed in, Olimar got rushed in, a lot of **** got rushed. It is indeed not finishing, but most **** is unfinished and gets rushed nowadays anyway lol

you can't say "look at this game aesthetics, it looks damn well finished!" when devs know there are still things that don't work as intended, but don't crash the game, so it's stable enough for tournament play lol

So I'm not the only Peach pessimist!

Honestly, Peach has a ridiculous skill curve, way steeper than Fox, it's hard being optimistic when the curve keeps slapping you in the face.

___________________________________________

Also, where the **** are all the memelords that used to come here to complain about Fox nerfs.

Oh wait, you all left because switching games is easier than getting mediocre at something. :^)

 

[Deleted member]

pretty much agree with PM being unfinished. it's pretty readily apparent.

 

[Sundark]

So we've got a game that was never balanced for competitive in the first place.

A game that was explicitly and progressively balanced for competitive but has now since stopped.

And a game that wasn't strictly intended to be competitive and is still receiving numerous but usually smaller-scale patches.

Being a Smash player is rough.

 

[ilysm]

I dunno, whether Project M is "unfinished" or not seems kind of immaterial considering the fact that it's still arguably better off than any of the other Smash titles out there right now. And any discussion about core flaws in the game that we cannot fix also seems kind of immaterial considering the fact that if it were bad enough that we all quit we wouldn't be having this discussion.

 

[ThegreatVaporeon1]

PM 3.6 is the best version, and I'm pretty happy with it, "unfinished" or not. It would've be nice to have just one more patch to fix some bugs with characters like Yoshi, or re-work Olimar's recovery, etc, but you can't win 'em all.

Anyways, call me crazy but I don't think Fox is the best character in this game. He's certainly good, but results at a national level don't really reflect his #1 spot. I think Diddy Kong holds that position based on the character's wins and matchup spread.

Also wolf is ridiculous.

 

[Boiko]

Peach can be developed in the game even further, I don't see any other full time Peach main in PM other than Malachi (eg.: Peaches that actually know how to AGT LMAO) and with the death of the game, I do not believe we are seeing her in the potential.

Malachi is probs better, but Silly Kyle is another strong PM Peach.

 

[Deleted member]

Malachi is probs better, but Silly Kyle is another strong PM Peach.

lol you dont say? 10/10 placement

 

[Tomaster]

Tier list thread needs more tier lists. This is the way i see things currently.

Yes it's ordered within tiers but don't nit pick.. unless it's for the S tier.

 

[Kapapanerp]

Tier list thread needs more tier lists. This is the way i see things currently.

Yes it's ordered within tiers but don't nit pick.. unless it's for the S tier.

Ivy and Ganon bottom 5? Sorry, I don't buy it lol.

 

[Tomaster]

Ivy and Ganon bottom 5? Sorry, I don't buy it lol.

well.. name 5 matchups that ganon wins... I can only think of one. Idk about ivy being bottom 5, maybe id replace her with DDD or icies, i don't see anyone else being in that position.

 

[Kapapanerp]

well.. name 5 matchups that ganon wins... I can only think of one. Idk about ivy being bottom 5, maybe id replace her with DDD or icies, i don't see anyone else being in that position.

Off the top of my head I got Yoshi IC's Puff Bowser I guess? I don't really know for sure. As far as relevant matchups go it's probably safe to say he gets bodied though, so maybe your right.

 

[Strong Badam]

Sure, but why are people still talking about changes as if they're a possible thing that can happen? I'm not happy about 3.6 being the final version, but Jesus, that's the reality.

This (among other reasons) is why I don't really like talking about this game anymore. People can't seem to just talk about things as they are, they're always trying to think of how it should be. It's a waste of time and effort from my point of view, as someone who spent about 6 years doing it when it wasn't. People still try to ask me for my opinion on what X should be or whatever, I really don't care anymore, if I hadn't already come to a conclusion on something from before I'm probably not going to have a good answer for you. I'm just going to try to be the best I can be at this game, go to tournaments and compete until a time where that's not fun anymore and if that happens I'll quit, just like I would with anything else.

Sorry I'm kind of late, I only check Smashboards once a week now.

 

[Boiko]

lol you dont say? 10/10 placement

I was simply referring him to another PM focused Peach player that he may not be aware of, since he only mentioned Malachi. But I was saying not to expect as much from Kyle as he would from Malachi. It's simply another resource. I don't really understand your reply.

 

[Deleted member]

I was simply referring him to another PM focused Peach player that he may not be aware of, since he only mentioned Malachi. But I was saying not to expect as much from Kyle as he would from Malachi. It's simply another resource. I don't really understand your reply.

you quoted a kyle about a kyle. its funny.

 

[MTL Kyle]

Malachi is probs better, but Silly Kyle is another strong PM Peach.

Silly Kyle is more of a Melee player, so he doesn't abuse PM mechanics as well as Malachi does.
eg.: invincible float from ledge, agt stuff

you quoted a kyle about a kyle. its funny.

people mistake me for him a lot because i also play peach.
after all this time i still dont know how i feel about that

 

[Boiko]

Silly Kyle is more of a Melee player, so he doesn't abuse PM mechanics as well as Malachi does.
eg.: invincible float from ledge, agt stuff

I don't think I've seen him NOT glide toss a turnip.

 

[Soft Serve]

Silly kyle has similar amounts of time into brawl peach as he does melee peach. He definitely uses all the item stuff, although I haven't looked for him doing float from ledge

 

[Chevy]

Bladewise still won't AGT turnips but he's started doing good ledge options at least, made Silent Wolf mostly quit PM I think lol.

 

[ilysm]

IC's

For what it's worth most of the Icies players think that we beat Ganon.

Tomaster I actually like that list way more than I thought I would at first glance. Why Puff so high? I haven't formulated an opinion on her but yours seems more positive than most.

Aside: I like tier lists that go to around C tier. I feel like that's a decent representation of viability, at least as the meta stands right now (I fully anticipate tier gaps growing wider as people get better, but who knows; this game offers you a lot more room to outplay your opponent and compete with more characters than others so).

 

[MTL Kyle]

For what it's worth most of the Icies players think that we beat Ganon

LOL NO

 

[Tomaster]

For what it's worth most of the Icies players think that we beat Ganon.

Tomaster I actually like that list way more than I thought I would at first glance. Why Puff so high? I haven't formulated an opinion on her but yours seems more positive than most.

Aside: I like tier lists that go to around C tier. I feel like that's a decent representation of viability, at least as the meta stands right now (I fully anticipate tier gaps growing wider as people get better, but who knows; this game offers you a lot more room to outplay your opponent and compete with more characters than others so).

Puff does well against a lot of characters, she's not viable as a solo main (because mewtwo) but I def think she has potential. I think most people underrate her simply because no one plays her. She actually has good matchups against a lot of the high/top tiers. ZSS, Lucario, sheik, diddy, falco, wolf, and more. Hbox got 4th (i think) at paragon when he doesnt even play PM, not basing my opinion on that but hey, it shows you she can't be all bad.

 

[Avro-Arrow]

In my opinion, you can't say a character isn't solo-viable because of one near-unwinnable match up (assuming it stayed functionally the same from 3.0, where it was unwinnable). Especially in this case where Mewtwo isn't even a common character in a cast of 41 characters. You're almost guaranteed to not run into a Mewtwo in most brackets.

Also I'm not sure how many people know of this but Puff is actually good against ZSS (because she can't hold her space well without invading Puff's). I say this because I know in the past a lot of people just wrote off Puff in general by saying "it's not Melee."

 

[Zoa]

Tier related question based on observations from multiple places, but it seems people sleep on Lucario. Especially at my weekly I ended up recently attending again. I haven't followed the tournament scene in PM for quite some time, but is there a lack of good Lucario players outside IPK?

 

[ThegreatVaporeon1]

Puff in general is pretty good vs some of the higher tier characters. ZSS like mentioned; Sheik struggles against her, as do falcon and falco a bit. Her marth mu is pretty even. And she also seems to beat characters like Lucario and Rob based on Hbox vs ipk/Hbox vs Oracle.

I think puff makes for a really good pocket character if you're struggling against some of the more commonly used characters in the game.

 

[Life]

Tier related question based on observations from multiple places, but it seems people sleep on Lucario. Especially at my weekly I ended up recently attending again. I haven't followed the tournament scene in PM for quite some time, but is there a lack of good Lucario players outside IPK?

There is, but IPK himself hasn't been as strong or at least as visible in PM lately. (The Mario Maker streams tho!)

I think that at this point, Lucario's combo game isn't really substantially better than the rest of top tier. We're past the whole "Lucario has no neutral" phase, but I do think being somewhat reliant on aura charges to crack open the proverbial walnut can cause issues there, too, relative to more reliable tools like lasers, bananas, swords, etc. Overall, he's another character in the "why not just play Fox" boat. IIRC I have him around the top of the second tier, alongside the likes of Falco and Sonic.

 

[Deleted member]

pretty much agree, also lucario has a real difficult time against anyone he cant death combo since hes not all that fast and upon hit confirm you can literally roll your stick in circles fishing for an SDI cheese out of his punish game. the only moves you really dont want to DI poorly from lucario are nair/dsmash over 100 but the rest are fair game. hes not terribly fast, his combo weight and recovery are kinda mediocre, he has a hard time checking floaties, etc etc. you can sell lucario as a deathbot but a lot has to happen to make that work. if anything, lucarios most underrated asset is having way more weight than youd expect him to

 

[JOE!]

Overall, he's another character in the "why not just play Fox" boat.

Who isnt?

 

[Life]

Who isnt?

There are plenty of characters who are more qualitatively different from Fox than Lucario is. See every fatty, almost every sword character, all the highly floaty characters. Fox IS the best character in matchup terms, in that it's not clear if he has any losing matchups at all (aside from probably DDD, who is very obscure; I'm basically making this aside because I trust Ripple's opinions on the character), but not everything in this game is a function of on-paper matchups. Maybe a character like MK or Sheik or Wario who has a lot more room for error is better fitting for some individuals. Maybe Mewtwo gets better in a local meta without any Toon Links. Maybe grand finals has June, maybe it has Lunchables or DVD, maybe it has Flipp or Prof Pro, maybe it has Malachi or Jaden, maybe it has Venom, and maybe the in-a-vacuum optimal character to pick versus each of those players is totally different.

Fox isn't good because of the strength of his tools individually, he's good because they cover pretty much all the bases a character needs to be good in this game. If it exists, Fox has ways to deal with it.

Also doesn't help that if you're good at Fox (i.e. you're a talented Fox main and not just a pocket Fox player that mains a PM character), there's much more incentive to play him in Melee, which is probably the biggest reason he underperforms in tournament despite being the character most frequently cited as number one.

 

[Avro-Arrow]

Seriously, I think Meta Knight is quite possibly better than Fox. I could explain why but most people already know what he's good at.

 

[Deleted member]

second on MK, hes basically about as good as fox but players have less experience dealing with him and all the tools designed to negotiate fox dont work on MK.

 

[Zoa]

Lucario being slow is new to me. Frame three jump squat, moderate air speed, top ten dash speed, one of the fastest wavedashes, and two burst movement options that can be used off OHC seems fast.

Anyways it seems like this is just another example of an underdeveloped character. There's still a lot of Super Theorycraft Bros. with a lot of differing opinions. There's things, like using first hit dair -> Spirit Bomb to capitalize on missed platform techs, that I didn't see when I last kept with the tournament scene.

 

[Luk101]

According to this thread: http://smashboards.com/threads/pm-3-5-stats-list-still-wip-wavedash-ranks-added.335019/, lucario has the 4th worst wavedash. Otherwise, I agree that he is pretty fast.

 

[Avro-Arrow]

A fast wavedash =/= long wavedash. IIRC the list ranks length, not speed of wavedash.

 

[Luk101]

Can you explain it to me then? I guess I don't understand the difference. Is it faster just cause of his short jumpsquat?

 

[ilysm]

Basically, yes. Although I am not sure if the lag frames on WD'ing are universal or not.

 

[TheGravyTrain]

Fairly certain that there is no difference between what determines wavedash distance and speed, what determines both is traction. Could be wrong though.