Tier List Speculation

[SwordsRbroken]

How many more tournaments does reflex have to win?

inb4 wario is mid tier and reflex is godlike

 

[Bryonato]

Some parts of this list are amazing while others make me scratch my head. How did Puff get so low, I recognize she's got so many new challenges that she doesn't quite do well against. Still...7th from the bottom? Below GnW and Ness?

To be honest I didn't put a whole lot of thought into Puff. KayB really hit the nail on the head. I just haven't seen her do anything in PM. When I revise this one I'll be sure to put more though into her.

 

[Vashimus]

Welcome to Dragon's Crown. I would probably be gushing all over it if the art wasn't so ridiculous

[collapse=But that's what the internet is for.]

And just for KayB.

Fav's still the Amazon though.[/collapse]

Speaking of characters being low, I do feel like the character usage plays a huge factor on how people typically tend to rank them. Then again, even if a bunch of Pikachu players sprouted from nowhere, it wouldn't change the fact he's the very definition of average.

 

[KayB]

Whenever we talk about Pikachu, I get the impression that no one understands why he's good.

 

[Scythe]

Pikachu is not that much better than his melee iteration and he's only mid tier in melee and only been successful on the national level in the hands of one of the best and most technical players in the states.

 

[DMG]

Oh IDK, people wanting to put Pikachu over Marth Wario Falcon and Snake LITERALLY BECAUSE OF QAC

I've seen people justify incredibly high Pikachu placements with theoretical, and usually somewhat dubious, QAC applications. In fact this is so heavily relied upon, that you never hear any arguments based on buffs in other areas that Pikachu got, or even that his MU spread dramatically improved because he covers his weaknesses better. No, it's almost always "QAC so good, can't predict it GG Pikachu"

 

[KayB]

Oh IDK, people wanting to put Pikachu over Marth Wario Falcon and Snake LITERALLY BECAUSE OF QAC

I've seen people justify incredibly high Pikachu placements with theoretical, and usually somewhat dubious, QAC applications. In fact this is so heavily relied upon, that you never hear any arguments based on buffs in other areas that Pikachu got, or even that his MU spread dramatically improved because he covers his weaknesses better. No, it's almost always "QAC so good, can't predict it GG Pikachu"

So even the Pikachu mains don't know why he's good. Nice.

 

[SpiderMad]

I'm a Bubbliever now guys, Squirtle is high mid-tier

 

[Yung Mei]

shoutouts to amazon, i'd let her crush me with her amazing muscular body

IF YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN

 

[DMG]

I looked up Amazon in that game


















She looks like she could wrestle Zangief... IN BED!

 

[Vashimus]

Trying out 2.6b, and this is the first time I decided to try DDD in 2.6.

Did anyone else notice how ****ing quick he is now?

 

[jayeldeee]

Trying out 2.6b, and this is the first time I decided to try DDD in this version.

Did anyone else notice how ****ing quick he is now?

2.6b?(Oh crap, didn't see that update!) But yeah, D3 does some a lot quicker. Also for his Up B, it feels that you can move and cancel it faster which is definitely nice in my books.

And sorry to sound like a noob (and of course I am), but what does QAC mean?

 

[Vashimus]

Quick Attack cancel. If Pikachu quick attacks into the ground, he rebounds really low to the ground, can cancel that into any of his aerials, can L-cancel that, and do...stuff.

 

[DMG]

He can touch people in places they are quite confortable in, with priority that probably would lose to 80% of jabs

 

[Pwnz0rz Man]

He can touch people in places they are quite confortable in, with priority that probably would lose to 80% of jabs

I found this to be hilarious and probably quite true.

 

[Archangel]

here we go...again.

anyone want to take a random ass 2.5b guess at a list?

 

[DMG]

"Neutral B foods' random trajectories can be limited to the upper or lower three by holding up or down"

WHYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY

WHYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY

 

[Oracle]

pikachu is just garbage fox minus a shine

 

[jayeldeee]

So ummm, where's Strongbad with the tier list so we can take this ridonkulous argument further for sooper seriouz players?

 

[DMG]

SB tier list:

SB tier

Wario
DK

Other's tier

Vash Avatar
DMG's Control Stick
Reflex's Mashing Skills (tied with my control stick)
Bubbaking's Absence from Smashboards
Kink's Rotating Avatars

The rest tier

Martha
Pikachu with rabies
SAMUS
KIRBY
ROY

 

[ELI-mination]

Wow that really tempts me to make my own

 

[Deleted member]

i had a testing session with chu for me playing like 10 chars vs his pikachu, we both decided that pikachu feels fairly underpowered. QAC seems like ike's side b where it adds a lot of depth to the character but it's debatable how useful it actually is from how your positioning changes when you use it. this isn't to bash chu but i really don't see how he placed at anything when the character feels pretty free. like the player can only do so much right

 

[Strong Badam]

[collapse=Project M Demo 2.6b Tier List Strong Bad Edition, v1.0]
SS Tier
1. Fox
2. Falco

S Tier

3. Sheik
4. Peach
5. Snake
6. Marth
7. Wario
8. Pit
9. Wolf

A Tier

10. Zero Suit Samus
11. Meta Knight
12. Ivysaur
13. Mario
14. Donkey Kong
15. Diddy Kong
16. Bowser

B Tier

17. Jigglypuff
18. Ike
19. Pikachu
20. Charizard
21. Captain Falcon
22. Lucas
23. Ness
24. Mr. Game & Watch
25. Link
26. ROB
27. Sonic
28. Lucario
29. King Dedede

C Tier

30. Luigi
31. Zelda
32. Toon Link
33. Ganondorf
34. Squirtle
[/collapse]
Breakdown & Reasoning:
I'll go through each tier and give a general description of why I put characters where I did. Note that I am not infallible, and I am not knowledgeable about every character and every matchup. My opinions are subject to change when I have more information.

SS Tier
Obvious Fox and Falco tier. Their neutral games are such that it's almost irrelevant how hard a character punishes them. It is nearly impossible for a character to have a positive matchup against either without being obviously broken and toxic against the rest of the cast, so unless they are changed in a significant way they will remain at the top. I think Fox is better than Falco in this game because his mobility allows for more versatility on the diverse stagelist present in PM and against the newly balanced cast than Falco. Falco's greatest option is the ability to negate the opponent's mobility, but in this game there are characters who are both potent and aren't particularly mobile, so being slow is a fact of life for them rather than a trait specific to the Falco matchup and they still fare well. Fox also KO's vertically more often than not, and well over half of the stagelist in PM supports vertical KOing. In addition, there are significantly more characters that are viable whose weight is equal to or higher than Marth's, so Fox gets shine combos in more relevant match-ups. The laser changes, if anything, hurt Fox more than they hurt Falco, but Fox still comes out on top IMO.

S Tier
This is the "Top Tier" of the fair characters. All of these characters have great tools to compete with the entire cast, each other, and unfortunately most importantly, go ~even with or only lose 4-6 to Fox and Falco. These characters have few matchups that they actually lose among characters in A-C tiers, and only lose slightly to other characters within this tier and SS Tier. Characters within this tier are also ordered, and the most obvious things separating them are mobility or methods by which to negate/disrupt mobility. Sheik, Marth, and Peach are quite obvious, they're driving forces in the Melee metagame. Pit and Snake are in S tier mostly because of their damage output, on top of their other strong neutral games. A lot of their combos will hit you like 4 times and deal 55-60% damage, which is extremely potent, and they often don't end there. Wario's an extremely dynamic and deep character with a lot of great options, yet his lack of ground mobility hurts him in a few matchups. Finally, Wolf is in here because his superior mobility, neutral game options, and a solid combo game are a great combination, however he does suffer a lot of collateral damage due to the majority of the cast's being designed to combo Fox/Falco well.

A Tier
This tier is mostly comprised of very solid characters who would likely be in S Tier if it weren't for aspects of their kit leading to being countered by certain archetypes. Because of this, these will require more time to explain their placing than S Tier.
Zero Suit Samus is an extremely mobile character who can pressure with her projectile, disjointed whip attacks (which all can be clanked, however, due to being considered projectiles by the game's coding), and quick tilts. She's able to force characters into shield, into the air, or to give up valuable stage positioning with her blaster, and barring a powershield these are all relatively positive outcomes for ZSS. However, ZSS struggles against other characters capable of pressuring with projectiles more quickly than she can, as well as those who can pressure more traditionally such as Fox, Falco, Wolf, Marth, and potentially Lucas, largely because of her tether grab and relatively slow aerials making her out of shield game lackluster, preventing her from breaking into S Tier at this point in time.
Meta Knight is a character that I don't think is possible to design and be a bad character without trying really hard. He has a sword and he's fast. Because of this, his neutral game could potentially rival the spacies, even though he doesn't hit particularly hard when he gets in. Since he's the newest character, I know the least about him, so he could easily move up or down on this list. From what I saw at Nerd Rage, however, he's really good.
Ivysaur does a lot of things, most of which I don't understand yet, but I do know that they're good. She pressures really well with Razor Leaf + Grab, and almost all of her moves have very little cooldown on top of beating CC. Furthermore, her combo weight doesn't particularly reward winning neutral against her, which is a chore for many characters. However, she struggles against characters with significant disjoint (Sword characters mostly) and really fast characters that are capable of approaching from a wide variety of angles, and has a good amount of 4-6 matchups as a result.
Mario is really good. He's got a lot of sound traits, such as his combo game, his ability to zone and edgeguard with fireballs as well as follow them up now in 2.6 with devastating grabs or Downsmashes. However, his biggest weakness is unfortunately one that is relevant against a wide variety of characters. Due to his small limbs giving him limited range, his neutral game is below par by a significant amount. The definition of "getting in" with Mario is a lot more "in" than most characters enjoy, making it an uphill battle for Mario to make use of his fantastic combo game. While he can somewhat threaten with fireballs, at range they deal ~8% and lead to nothing, and up close the faster characters are often capable of clanking the fireball and hitting Mario with the same aerial. His struggles in the neutral game prevent him from breaking into S Tier.
Donkey Kong is a fast character with decent range, is great at landing grabs, and punishes hard from grabs. His Dash Dance and grab game alone let him keep up with the majority of the cast, but projectiles tend to be his worst nightmare. His OoS options, after his opponent becomes proficient at spacing outside of Up-B OoS and interrupting his fantastic shield grab with quick jabs, tilts, or frame 1 jump cancelable moves, are also particularly weak. Furthermore, his recovery, while going extremely far, is also linear. This allows certain characters to hit him over and over with nearly no hope of his return. Meteors and spikes are also really rough on his recovery, and his weight class is one of the most comboable in the game. Lastly, most of his aerials aren't particularly quick to come out, making him susceptible to interruption when he's in the air. He struggles most against projectile-heavy characters that also apply pressure well, causing him to have more than a few 4-6 matchups, or he'd be in S Tier.
Diddy Kong sports a very solid neutral game, as his Dash Dance is amazing and he's able to harass with bananas not only from a distance, but with movement incorporated. He's not particularly great at killing, but hey, neither is Marth. I've yet to see a player take Diddy as far as I think he can be taken, but I've already seen elements here in there in the players I have seen. It's really hard to get in on Diddy, but he's more about quick 2-3 hit combos than really long and extended ones that characters like Wario are able to perform on most characters.
Bowser is quite the polarizing character. He doesn't handle camping too well, nor does he handle pressure against the few characters who are able to pressure from a range that he can't Up-B OoS and hit them. He's pretty slow, but he certainly hits hard when he lands a blow. Unfortunately, while he has a few mixups here and there, his optimal playstyle is fairly linear and doesn't leave much room for metagame development, so Bowser might see a drop in the future as others below him are pushed to their limits.

B Tier
These are characters that are all solid in their own right, and interact well with most characters, but have quite a few 4-6 matchups just by virtue of being not as good at winning as the characters above them. I don't have any intention of going through the list and explaining why I have them ordered the way they are. It gets a lil cloudy in this area, but I think this order is pretty accurate with the information currently at my disposal. Typically, when ordering here, I valued mobility the highest. As you move down this list characters get slightly worse, but ROB's ability to win a tournament isn't particularly lower than Ike's.

C Tier
The "bottom 5," these characters have losing matchups against around half of the cast or more. It would be extremely difficult for a player to win a sizable tournament with a relevant level of competition with any of these guys 100% solo, potentially impossible. Note that these character's aren't exactly "bad," they are simply not as good at winning as those above them. The order of these characters is almost completely irrelevant. Being the "cream of the crap" isn't really something you put on your resume, so I didn't really put much effort into ordering them after I had the bottom 5 chosen.

Closing:
This is the best smash game ever made. **** the haters.

 

[DMG]

QAC would be super useful if Pikachu had a decent hitbox while he was travelling with the move. Because it sucks, you can have 80% of lingering moves just throw out and beat it if he gets close to you. If he choses not to use it in a way that gains distance or approaches closer, then it's basically wasted time and not really that helpful unless you're trying to gimmick someone with platforms or terrain etc

SB tier list looks very good, very few things I would disagree with.

 

[ELI-mination]

Agreed with whole list except Marth is low tier
(yup still funny to me)

 

[DMG]

Best:
Fox

S tier:
Falco
Sheik


If you aren't playing one of these characters, you're doin it wrong.

 

[jayeldeee]

SB tier list:...ROY

LOOOOOL. I think everyone just died.

[collapse=Project M Demo 2.6b Tier List Strong Bad Edition, v1.0][/collapse]
SS Tier...haters.

I like this list, but I think this is the first time I've seen Squirt Squirt at the bottom. I knew the withdrawl movement does kind of throw me off, but man. And I knew my main would be mid through low, so I'm not surprised. Guess it's just that time to go pro then and turn all Gimpyfish Saiyan.

Oh yeah, what happened to Cassidy man? You and Butch literally disappeared at the same time.

 

[DMG]

Reflex next avatar will probably be a stack of 100's, dude is piling up money like armageddon is coming

 

[metroid1117]

B Tier

17. Jigglypuff
18. Ike
19. Pikachu
20. Charizard
21. Captain Falcon
22. Lucas
23. Ness
24. Mr. Game & Watch
25. Link
26. ROB
27. Sonic
28. Lucario
29. King Dedede

Interesting, I would've put Charizard higher than Ike. Charizard just seems to hit harder, is less susceptible to CC'ing (which really hurts Ike), and seems to have an easier time with Fox/Falco. Granted, I haven't played a good Fox/Falco with either character outside of that one match with Hylian and Cookiemonster though.

Also... assuming low tier is B and below... does that mean that Bowser is banned from Low Tier tournies that use Strong Bad's tier list?

 

[Scythe]

Metaknight is only going to go up

 

[MysteryRevengerson]

Psychic kids are THAT bad

 

[Strong Badam]

We stuck with Team Rocket avatars as we were teaming for both Low Tier City and NERD RAGE, our team name being Team Rocket, which ended up lasting about a 3 month interval since we started at some point in May. I changed mine and told Luis that he was welcome to change his yesterday. Should we team again, however, our avatars will likely also return. Hoping Luis can make it to Big House 3, it would seem we make a good team.

 

[jayeldeee]

Weegee be all low tier and stuff, but I'll be playing him like this to high tiers:

Spoiler

Psychic kids are THAT bad

I'm actually surprised they aren't lower. But then again, I haven't really messed around a lot with Lucas' new moveset. That Offense Up Alpha, Beta, Delta, Omega, whatever it is, is interesting.

 

[DMG]

Fox has nothing precious to him to crush. He alienated everything dear to him long ago. The wars in space made him a changed man...

 

[jayeldeee]

Fox has nothing precious to him to crush. He alienated everything dear to him long ago. The wars in space made him a changed man...

If I lost my dad and had that annoying pig turning his back on the team, I'm sure I'd be pretty sad too.

 

[CyberZixx]

In your last tier list I remember Marth being in the A tier. What changed your mind?

 

[NightShadow6]

By the looks of things everyone is viable. Good job!

 

[Strong Badam]

Interesting, I would've put Charizard higher than Ike. Charizard just seems to hit harder, is less susceptible to CC'ing (which really hurts Ike), and seems to have an easier time with Fox/Falco. Granted, I haven't played a good Fox/Falco with either character outside of that one match with Hylian and Cookiemonster though.

Also... assuming low tier is B and below... does that mean that Bowser is banned from Low Tier tournies that use Strong Bad's tier list?

I understand Ike a lot more than I understand Zard, maybe they should be switched. *shrug* That's what October's list is for~

If I had to name the tiers, I would name B Tier Mid Tier. Low Tier tourneys shouldn't exist in this game.

 

[jayeldeee]

In your last tier list I remember Marth being in the A tier. What changed your mind?

Eli's starting to have his influence on him. Oops, never mind. Read that backwards. Disregard.

 

[The_NZA]

[collapse=Project M Demo 2.6b Tier List Strong Bad Edition, v1.0]
SS Tier
1. Fox
2. Falco

S Tier

3. Sheik
4. Peach
5. Snake
6. Marth
7. Wario
8. Pit
9. Wolf

A Tier

10. Zero Suit Samus
11. Meta Knight
12. Ivysaur
13. Mario
14. Donkey Kong
15. Diddy Kong
16. Bowser

B Tier

17. Jigglypuff
18. Ike
19. Pikachu
20. Charizard
21. Captain Falcon
22. Lucas
23. Ness
24. Mr. Game & Watch
25. Link
26. ROB
27. Sonic
28. Lucario
29. King Dedede

C Tier

30. Luigi
31. Zelda
32. Toon Link
33. Ganondorf
34. Squirtle
[/collapse]
Breakdown & Reasoning:
I'll go through each tier and give a general description of why I put characters where I did. Note that I am not infallible, and I am not knowledgeable about every character and every matchup. My opinions are subject to change when I have more information.

SS Tier
Obvious Fox and Falco tier. Their neutral games are such that it's almost irrelevant how hard a character punishes them. It is nearly impossible for a character to have a positive matchup against either without being obviously broken and toxic against the rest of the cast, so unless they are changed in a significant way they will remain at the top. I think Fox is better than Falco in this game because his mobility allows for more versatility on the diverse stagelist present in PM and against the newly balanced cast than Falco. Falco's greatest option is the ability to negate the opponent's mobility, but in this game there are characters who are both potent and aren't particularly mobile, so being slow is a fact of life for them rather than a trait specific to the Falco matchup and they still fare well. Fox also KO's vertically more often than not, and well over half of the stagelist in PM supports vertical KOing. In addition, there are significantly more characters that are viable whose weight is equal to or higher than Marth's, so Fox gets shine combos in more relevant match-ups. The laser changes, if anything, hurt Fox more than they hurt Falco, but Fox still comes out on top IMO.

S Tier
This is the "Top Tier" of the fair characters. All of these characters have great tools to compete with the entire cast, each other, and unfortunately most importantly, go ~even with or only lose 4-6 to Fox and Falco. These characters have few matchups that they actually lose among characters in A-C tiers, and only lose slightly to other characters within this tier and SS Tier. Characters within this tier are also ordered, and the most obvious things separating them are mobility or methods by which to negate/disrupt mobility. Sheik, Marth, and Peach are quite obvious, they're driving forces in the Melee metagame. Pit and Snake are in S tier mostly because of their damage output, on top of their other strong neutral games. A lot of their combos will hit you like 4 times and deal 55-60% damage, which is extremely potent, and they often don't end there. Wario's an extremely dynamic and deep character with a lot of great options, yet his lack of ground mobility hurts him in a few matchups. Finally, Wolf is in here because his superior mobility, neutral game options, and a solid combo game are a great combination, however he does suffer a lot of collateral damage due to the majority of the cast's being designed to combo Fox/Falco well.

A Tier
This tier is mostly comprised of very solid characters who would likely be in S Tier if it weren't for aspects of their kit leading to being countered by certain archetypes. Because of this, these will require more time to explain their placing than S Tier.
Zero Suit Samus is an extremely mobile character who can pressure with her projectile, disjointed whip attacks (which all can be clanked, however, due to being considered projectiles by the game's coding), and quick tilts. She's able to force characters into shield, into the air, or to give up valuable stage positioning with her blaster, and barring a powershield these are all relatively positive outcomes for ZSS. However, ZSS struggles against other characters capable of pressuring with projectiles more quickly than she can, as well as those who can pressure more traditionally such as Fox, Falco, Wolf, Marth, and potentially Lucas, largely because of her tether grab and relatively slow aerials making her out of shield game lackluster, preventing her from breaking into S Tier at this point in time.
Meta Knight is a character that I don't think is possible to design and be a bad character without trying really hard. He has a sword and he's fast. Because of this, his neutral game could potentially rival the spacies, even though he doesn't hit particularly hard when he gets in. Since he's the newest character, I know the least about him, so he could easily move up or down on this list. From what I saw at Nerd Rage, however, he's really good.
Ivysaur does a lot of things, most of which I don't understand yet, but I do know that they're good. She pressures really well with Razor Leaf + Grab, and almost all of her moves have very little cooldown on top of beating CC. Furthermore, her combo weight doesn't particularly reward winning neutral against her, which is a chore for many characters. However, she struggles against characters with significant disjoint (Sword characters mostly) and really fast characters that are capable of approaching from a wide variety of angles, and has a good amount of 4-6 matchups as a result.
Mario is really good. He's got a lot of sound traits, such as his combo game, his ability to zone and edgeguard with fireballs as well as follow them up now in 2.6 with devastating grabs or Downsmashes. However, his biggest weakness is unfortunately one that is relevant against a wide variety of characters. Due to his small limbs giving him limited range, his neutral game is below par by a significant amount. The definition of "getting in" with Mario is a lot more "in" than most characters enjoy, making it an uphill battle for Mario to make use of his fantastic combo game. While he can somewhat threaten with fireballs, at range they deal ~8% and lead to nothing, and up close the faster characters are often capable of clanking the fireball and hitting Mario with the same aerial. His struggles in the neutral game prevent him from breaking into S Tier.
Donkey Kong is a fast character with decent range, is great at landing grabs, and punishes hard from grabs. His Dash Dance and grab game alone let him keep up with the majority of the cast, but projectiles tend to be his worst nightmare. His OoS options, after his opponent becomes proficient at spacing outside of Up-B OoS and interrupting his fantastic shield grab with quick jabs, tilts, or frame 1 jump cancelable moves, are also particularly weak. Furthermore, his recovery, while going extremely far, is also linear. This allows certain characters to hit him over and over with nearly no hope of his return. Meteors and spikes are also really rough on his recovery, and his weight class is one of the most comboable in the game. Lastly, most of his aerials aren't particularly quick to come out, making him susceptible to interruption when he's in the air. He struggles most against projectile-heavy characters that also apply pressure well, causing him to have more than a few 4-6 matchups, or he'd be in S Tier.
Diddy Kong sports a very solid neutral game, as his Dash Dance is amazing and he's able to harass with bananas not only from a distance, but with movement incorporated. He's not particularly great at killing, but hey, neither is Marth. I've yet to see a player take Diddy as far as I think he can be taken, but I've already seen elements here in there in the players I have seen. It's really hard to get in on Diddy, but he's more about quick 2-3 hit combos than really long and extended ones that characters like Wario are able to perform on most characters.
Bowser is quite the polarizing character. He doesn't handle camping too well, nor does he handle pressure against the few characters who are able to pressure from a range that he can't Up-B OoS and hit them. He's pretty slow, but he certainly hits hard when he lands a blow. Unfortunately, while he has a few mixups here and there, his optimal playstyle is fairly linear and doesn't leave much room for metagame development, so Bowser might see a drop in the future as others below him are pushed to their limits.

B Tier
These are characters that are all solid in their own right, and interact well with most characters, but have quite a few 4-6 matchups just by virtue of being not as good at winning as the characters above them. I don't have any intention of going through the list and explaining why I have them ordered the way they are. It gets a lil cloudy in this area, but I think this order is pretty accurate with the information currently at my disposal. Typically, when ordering here, I valued mobility the highest. As you move down this list characters get slightly worse, but ROB's ability to win a tournament isn't particularly lower than Ike's.

C Tier
The "bottom 5," these characters have losing matchups against around half of the cast or more. It would be extremely difficult for a player to win a sizable tournament with a relevant level of competition with any of these guys 100% solo, potentially impossible. Note that these character's aren't exactly "bad," they are simply not as good at winning as those above them. The order of these characters is almost completely irrelevant. Being the "cream of the crap" isn't really something you put on your resume, so I didn't really put much effort into ordering them after I had the bottom 5 chosen.

Closing:
This is the best smash game ever made. **** the haters.

I'm curious why you think Luigi belongs in C tier when some players (maybe just one) played a potent Luigi in Melee and he is definitely better in 2.6b.