Tier List Speculation

[Juushichi]

People back in the Dev team always thought he was strong (like Wolf) but the playerbase didn't really do anything with him for a while, lol. Gurukid had a fantastic showing though!

 

[trash?]

A lot of the MK hype mostly came out of the woodwork post-disbandment. There's always been a little bit, but people are suddenly calling him top 3?

I temporarily forgot how to use smashboards for a few months, shhhh

I called him good since 2.6 came out, then I still said he was heavily underrated but a tad boring in 3.5, and he got a whole bunch of buffs in 3.6 including a dair that may not be as cheesy as his old PM dair, but honestly might be better in terms of gluing together his overall aerial game

although, I don't doubt that people were quiet simply on the basis that great characters tend to get hardcore nerfs in PM's patches (RIP pit), and it's known that some players (m2k with mewtwo, especially) would intentionally try to hide a character's strengths from the public

(also I think wolf might be #1 in the long run and that fox will likely drop by comparison but who knows, I'm a rando on the internet)

 

[TheNotoriousTFB]

Ive had MK in my top 3 for a long time and i dont know if its just out of stubborness that i keep him there or if its that i do still view him as top 3. But even if i took out some of what i think could be bias i couldnt place him any lower than the very top of tier 2 characters in the game.

 

[trash?]

unlike SF4 PM and melee has 1 to 3 characters that have no bad matchups making it all easier to not invest into "fair" chars

there is nobody in this game even half as obnoxious as evil ryu for lazy top tier matchups

 

[Strong Badam]

although, I don't doubt that people were quiet simply on the basis that great characters tend to get hardcore nerfs in PM's patches (RIP pit), and it's known that some players (m2k with mewtwo, especially) would intentionally try to hide a character's strengths from the public

Lol m2k wasn't even the best mewtwo nor will he ever be. You can't be trying to hide tech to prevent nerfs when you refuse to learn it in the first place.

 

[trash?]

I just specifically remember him saying that he didn't want to play mewtwo on that reasoning during late-3.02, he wasn't even close to being the best player of him

 

[jtm94]

Roy is just ghetto Marth that dies harder. I think the dtilt and dair change make him feel gross. Don't even get me started on bair *barf*
He aight tho. Everyone is aight.

MK's old dair was crazy stupid. I hate all divekick moves. Everything was crazy fast, but again it was around dumber characters so it was hard to shine then.

Yeah m2k just never invested a lot into any character because of possible changes. Why he would avoid melee characters and go for Mario fireball cheese. His mewtwo was good but only because he's good. His mewtwo was mediocre.

 

[KムエN]

Ive had MK in my top 3 for a long time and i dont know if its just out of stubborness that i keep him there or if its that i do still view him as top 3. But even if i took out some of what i think could be bias i couldnt place him any lower than the very top of tier 2 characters in the game.

What does your list look like?

 

[D e l t a]

MK also generally has a lack of players good enough to exhaustively break down the characters options from "this looks really good" into "At 30% against 12 characters, using x DI, I have 2 frames to do IDC as a guaranteed follow up after Dthrow". There might be some people getting close to this, but there's certainly not a national presence across all regions that helps develop the character widely.

If I can dive extensively into Lucas' combo tree, Metaknight players can lab the 5 combo options he has from tech chases / juggle opportunities.

Tbh there's a lack of representation more than anything

 

[Bazkip]

Ive played alot of kirby and it could be that i just see potential which isnt actually there but i feel like his ability to edgeguard literally anyone with relative ease makes up for the lack of range there is.

He's got great edgeguards but his ability to get people into edguarding situations is poor. There's plenty of characters in this game with excellent egeguarding capabilities and most are far better at opening up opponents and getting them offstage.

Not only are a lot his moves active for one frame

Many of his moves are active for two frames. That's still a short duration, but there aren't any that are just one frame.
I'm guessing you probably looked at the frame data thread and saw something like active frame 5-6, and thought "6 - 5 = 1", but that means it's active on both frame 5 and 6, which is two frames.
If it was one frame it'd just be active for frame 5.

 

[Life]

I'm pretty sure the most commonly cited positive trait on any character is "has great edgeguarding." Like aside from MAYBE Roy (for his inability to cover both ledge and stage effectively--and even top Roy players make it work somehow I don't understand) I legitimately can't think of any character off the top of my head that you could make a case for having poor edgeguarding.

 

[DMG]

Roy's trick is you cover onstage as much as you can, dissuade people from going high, then when they are lower you grab edge and ledge dash for anyone trying to be tricky. Roy players that aren't as good may just go immediately to the ledge, or awkwardly time their ledge grab.

 

[_Chrome]

He's got great edgeguards but his ability to get people into edguarding situations is poor. There's plenty of characters in this game with excellent egeguarding capabilities and most are far better at opening up opponents and getting them offstage.



Many of his moves are active for two frames. That's still a short duration, but there aren't any that are just one frame.
I'm guessing you probably looked at the frame data thread and saw something like active frame 5-6, and thought "6 - 5 = 1", but that means it's active on both frame 5 and 6, which is two frames.
If it was one frame it'd just be active for frame 5.

My b. Still, 2 frame moves require a degree of precision.

 

[redbeanjelly]

I'm pretty sure the most commonly cited positive trait on any character is "has great edgeguarding." Like aside from MAYBE Roy (for his inability to cover both ledge and stage effectively--and even top Roy players make it work somehow I don't understand) I legitimately can't think of any character off the top of my head that you could make a case for having poor edgeguarding.

Lucario?

 

[Bazkip]

My b. Still, 2 frame moves require a degree of precision.

Yeah it doesn't change your point much, just wanted to clear up misinfo.

 

[nimigoha]

Lucario's alright, he can push people away with Fair, and Bair is disjointed and pretty strong. Dsmash is good for punishing missed sweetspots.

 

[TheNotoriousTFB]

What does your list look like?

Tier 1 - Fox, diddy, mk
Tier 2 - Wolf, lucario, sheik, rob, g&w.
Tier 3 - pretty much everyone else
Tier 4 - Zard, Bowser
Inside the tiers are no particular order. And this is just based off what ive been exposed to as of late

 

[Sardonyx]

A lone Zelda enters the playing field, wondering why nobody has picked her for the battles that lie ahead. Then she realizes she is still on the worse side of the cast with a C- floating above her head.

 

[Lashurn]

Remember the early days of SSB4 where little mac was extremely rampent, and, for the time, majority of us had no clue what was best on how to deal with him? Good times, good, painful, annoying, times.

Well lets get ready for something similar with cloud and his good range and great knockback! Let FG and FF be ditto matches for the first few weeks after launch! (Though im in Smash/SkrubHell from salty people, so i i'm gonna be in some friend lobbys blowing up fire boxes and humping ledges until the 18th.
Dont question it, my friends currupted how i play causually. XDDD)

 

[eideeiit]

Remember the early days of SSB4 where little mac was extremely rampent, and, for the time, majority of us had no clue what was best on how to deal with him? Good times, good, painful, annoying, times.

Well lets get ready for something similar with cloud and his good range and great knockback! Let FG and FF be ditto matches for the first few weeks after launch! (Though im in Smash/SkrubHell from salty people, so i i'm gonna be in some friend lobbys blowing up fire boxes and humping ledges until the 18th.
Dont question it, my friends currupted how i play causually. XDDD)

wrong thread

jesus what the hell is going on

 

[Juushichi]

haha.

also people still play Zelda. Outside of Zhime and maybe 3 other players, they're probably not the best players, but people definitely still play Zelda. She's a fun alt sometimes imo and is fun to play in teams.

 

[D e l t a]

I'm pretty sure the most commonly cited positive trait on any character is "has great edgeguarding." Like aside from MAYBE Roy (for his inability to cover both ledge and stage effectively--and even top Roy players make it work somehow I don't understand) I legitimately can't think of any character off the top of my head that you could make a case for having poor edgeguarding.

Lucas' ledge guards compared to the rest of the cast are lackluster.

Downsmash / Bair / Ftilt only work against sweetspot recoveries if their head pokes up a bit like Fox/Falco, but the timing is very strict and the spacing has to be tight.

He can't exactly do drop down aerials because due to a lack of a sex kick move like Mario, Fox, Kirby, etc. The only other option is a rising Fair/Bair if the opponent is mad offstage and their recovery isn't extremely fast. Dropping down is risky since without a double jump he's screwed

The only other way Lucas ledge guards well is against high recoveries since he has the 2nd highest full jump next to Falco.

 

[KムエN]

Tier 1 - Fox, diddy, mk
Tier 2 - Wolf, lucario, sheik, rob, g&w.
Tier 3 - pretty much everyone else
Tier 4 - Zard, Bowser
Inside the tiers are no particular order. And this is just based off what ive been exposed to as of late

What makes ROB and G&W that good in this game?

And what is the general opinion on Falco's placement? (or better yet is there a tier list that people generally agree with?)

 

[TheNotoriousTFB]

G&W is only currently that high because people know how to play him but dont really know how to play against him. ROB has chain grabs, combo, neutral, projectiles, edge guards, mobility (aerial mostly), and he is FAT as ****.

Falco is arguably better (most would say even) in this game when looked at individually due to wavebouncing and rar but his general matchup spread makes it so he cant be consider in the top percentage like he is in melee.

 

[KムエN]

Ok. And how many losing mu's/50-50's does Falco have in PM?

 

[nimigoha]

Ok. And how many losing mu's/50-50's does Falco have in PM?

This game became complete just 4 months ago, that kind of stuff is still in development.

 

[GabPR]

I'm pretty sure the most commonly cited positive trait on any character is "has great edgeguarding." Like aside from MAYBE Roy (for his inability to cover both ledge and stage effectively--and even top Roy players make it work somehow I don't understand) I legitimately can't think of any character off the top of my head that you could make a case for having poor edgeguarding.

Each character has some kind of tool that can be used for edgeguarding, and given a good read you can edgeguard with any of them, which would lead to the belief that most of the cast do not have a "poor" edgeguard game. However, there are many traits that compose how good a character's edgeguard game is. For example, which recoveries is the character most effective against? How much space can you threaten when onstage? How much space can you cover above you? Can your character limit your opponents movement offstage, if so how and to what extent? How far can the character go offstage and come back to edgeguard, how safe is it to do so? How many options does your character have that are useful for edgeguarding (and where are they most effective)? etc.

A few example of this is, lets say, peach recovering from high up. Some characters do not have the jumping ability to go that far up and are forced to wait for peach to come down (Ex. Olimar), while others do have that height advantage or projectiles to cover it (Ex. Pit), which have an additional layer of options not available to the before mentioned type of characters. Another example is Samus recovering with bombs from outside the stage, now unless you wait for them to get closer, some characters cannot go far out to try and edge guard samus without there being great risk involved (Ex. Roy) while other have a recovery that makes it easier to go outside and smack them away with an aerial, and return to the stage with relative ease (Ex. DDD).

So when people want to say that their characters have good edge guards, they have to look at how their characters fare vs the different recovery moves in the game, and compare their options with the rest of the cast.

 

[Frost | Odds]

Additional Zard players of note include Mask, Zen, and I think Zekflop as well? There are supposedly a weird number of Zard players in France, actually.

Zen and Zefklop are probably the best Zards, but I'd put myself or Oracle third, I think.

Mask is my hero and inspiration, but I think his play is just a bit too sloppy.

 

[D e l t a]

What makes ROB and G&W that good in this game?

And what is the general opinion on Falco's placement? (or better yet is there a tier list that people generally agree with?)

As Notorious said, there's only so many G&W players out there, and most of them are really good. So when going to a national, the experience fighting these characters is lacking compared to Melee top tiers, Ganon, Roy, etc. Players don't fully abuse SDI against G&W's UpB, Dtilt, and Uair- the main combo tools of GnW. His throws are difficult to react to given his throws are extremely close in animation. His down tilt is a frame 6 kill move around 115-130% on most of the cast, is disjointed with an angle that can be combo'd out of and a near horizontal angle great for ledge guards / gimping. All his aerials are strong and capable of killing, especially Fair & Nair. Dair has a landing hitbox making it somewhat safe on shield and able to lead into kill moves easily. And Bacon is a great tool in neutral. Not to mention all his aerials have long lasting hitboxes with almost 0 sourspots. Finally, his gatling combo and smashes in general are powerful: able to kill as early as 60% from Usmash and around 80% from Fsmash.

Rob: what Notorious said nails it on the head.

Falco is seen less than G&W due to the engine change from Melee to PM and the way he feels is off-putting. Most Falcos will stick to Melee. The other reason he's not seen in PM compared to the other portion of the cast is in part to the cast itself. About half the cast are floaties, making his MUs tough / boring (see: Falco v any floaty like Puff or Peach). Not to say those MUs are losing, but PM has generally larger stages: Delphino's, Smasvhille, Green Hill, Yoshi's Island (Brawl), etc.Since floaties got buffed compared to Melee and Falco only got nerfs, it's become much more difficult. Falco's recovery as said countless times elsewhere, is not anywhere near as good as Fox's. His UpB is very short ranged with high startup, and SideB is only good at certain heights while having very little drift.

==

Edit: GabPR that has got to be my favorite post regarding ledge guarding and what defines a character's ability to ledge guard.

 

[SpiderMad]

what are the "game design" reasons for not normalizing everyone's jumpsquat to three frames?

Melee.

You mean Smash 64?

And the reasons are a lot? You just don't want absurd outliers, which they properly changed.

 

[Frost | Odds]

Just curious, do street fighter or RoA have varying jumpsquats?

 

[Kushina43]

Just curious, do street fighter or RoA have varying jumpsquats?

At least the newer ones do, range from 3-6 pre-jump frames with 4 being the most common in SSFIV

 

[CORY]

At least the newer ones do, range from 3-6 pre-jump frames with 4 being the most common in SSFIV

really? i didn't know that, i thought they just kept their jump squats universal...

holy crap, looked on their wiki and sure as ****, abel has a 4 frame jump and gief has a 6! that's really interesting, since i'm assuming you still can't be grabbed out of jump squat in sf?

 

[Xykness]

Didn't I read somewhere that M2K is selling his soul to G&W now that the game is finished?
Confirmation anyone?

 

[DMG]

What's the point of selling your soul if you won't take your hands to a Doctor

 

[AuraMaudeGone]

really? i didn't know that, i thought they just kept their jump squats universal...

holy crap, looked on their wiki and sure as ****, abel has a 4 frame jump and gief has a 6! that's really interesting, since i'm assuming you still can't be grabbed out of jump squat in sf?

Yea, you're invincible during jump squat iirc.

 

[Saproling]

What's the point of selling your soul if you won't take your hands to a Doctor

You don't need hands to play G&W though.

 

[Rᴏb]

Didn't I read somewhere that M2K is selling his soul to G&W now that the game is finished?
Confirmation anyone?

@MrLul

 

[Strong Badam]

Social thread is over there folks. Try to be not-so-spammy in here please =)

 

[jtm94]

PMBR never stop keeping us down.

Yeah I also heard M2k was gonna use GnW. It'll be great once he picks him up and does better with his Melee characters on bad days. Interested to see what he might bring to the table though, Also curious to see more of Nintendude's GnW if he still has interest in the game. Now that it's solid we can see more people sink in the time to solidify tier lists.

Still don't think GnW is all ~that~ good. It's just like a Luigi/Zelda thing where it's weird, you get hit by things, and you're mad because you wanna run at the opponent and dank on them until they're dead, but there are hitboxes in the way and they interact weirdly.