Tier List Speculation

[Spralwers]

What I find interesting about this is how that will hold up in practicality:

Lets say Character X has fairly even MUs across the board, but gets bopped by Character Y. Conceivably, one could either be a main of CharY or have a pocket CharY for the Match-Up and put a stop to CharX's bracket run. CharZ however has a much better time vs CharY and the CharX main can use him to "patch" his hole vs CharY.

Given that CharZ exists to even out the hole of CharX's match-ups, is it not fair to say that CharX is better by the fact that CharZ exists? Also, if somebody wins using both CharX and CharZ, isnt that technically not a "solo" win?

It is good you bring this up.

I forgot there are actually multiple ways to create tier lists. You can do the common letter grade ranking based on a scale, with the letters F-A, with C-B being average, adding S, SS, and SSS as necessary to indicate outlier characters that are absurdly powerful relative to A, S, and SS tiers respectively. These sorts of tier lists evaluate individual characters' power levels relative to each other, with some consideration for match ups.

You can also do a point based ranking, where points are gathered through MU spreads. This Super Turbo tier list is an example of that: http://curryallergy.blogspot.com/2009/08/super-diagram-turbo-version-3.html

To answer your question - no. It is fair to say the player of CharX is better by the fact that CharZ exists. If somebody wins using both CharX and CharZ, that is indeed not a "solo" win. Tier lists for solo rankings are the "easiest" and most "straightforward" to make, because once you throw MUs into that mix, then you have to consider even more variables like: how popular is that character, and how high on the tier list is that character, and by how much does that character win/lose?

Even in this solo tier lists, people (even myself) will use MU spreads to justify placings. So it seems kinda contradictory right? It's just an easy way to explain the overall point. "This character doesn't lose any MUs so they are automatically top tier." It's an ez way of saying in as few words as possible how powerful a character is. But a MU based tier list will actually weigh the significance of winning/losing various MUs and the extent to which those MUs are lost/won - the Super Turbo one I linked does just that.

 

[Soft Serve]

Just realized no future updates kills all my dreams of c stick doing up and down tilts. I think I'm going to cry. Rip in peace ez mode pivot dtilt with c stick.

Now it'll be even harder for me to justify dropping everything for Pikachu and becoming pivot dtilt god there's something about pivot dtilt> dash cross up nair, instant upair shield pressure, >qac to chase down rolls that sounds so appealing

 

[_Chrome]

What I'm scared about MK is that I don't want to get bored by this character. Do you guys feel that as MK mains or does the character keeps you interest? Sorry if I'm a bit off topic.

I hope this answers your question: since I've picked up Meta Knight, I'm afraid of becoming a solo main. That's how powerful and crazily fun he is to use, for me at least. When I play friendlies, tournaments, against bad or good players, no other character gives me the same level of satisfaction. Sword ball is ballin'.

As for a counterpicking tier list, I don't think we'll be ready for one until we have a main tier list first (which we're not ready for yet, but let's keep trying{!}). It's interesting to talk about though, so I see no reason why people can't talk about it.

 

[Ivko]

I do think that, especially in PM, it is very useful to consider how a character does when considering having a secondary (or being a secondary). I don't know if this should be reflected in tier lists, but it's a practical way of looking at it. Top tiers should be fine solo, pretty much by definition. But mid/low tier players should look at what characters cover their bad matchups, and it could be the case that their low tier character is perfectly fine to keep playing without feeling bad, as long as you have that secondary for backup.

I did something like that for myself to find out the best secondary to use. Take the matchup chart, subtract each character's row +/- rating from your own (to find out how much they improve on every matchup), remove all the character columns that your main already does well against, remove the character columns that either aren't present in your scene or don't pose you much threat, and then do something like sum the remaining +/- results. This tells you what would be the ideal secondaries to pick up. The problem is, our current matchup charts supposedly suck, but it will be more useful when they get better (and I'll probably make a web tool to do it).

 

[trash?]

the most boring bit of MK is basically every time his opponent is at low %. he's got major issues with crouch-cancelling, so more often than not this means he's playing dthrow tech-chases until he can start using everything else.

still the best version of MK in a smash game, and most fun smash character of all time, though. all hail the swordball

I do think that, especially in PM, it is very useful to consider how a character does when considering having a secondary (or being a secondary). I don't know if this should be reflected in tier lists, but it's a practical way of looking at it. Top tiers should be fine solo, pretty much by definition. But mid/low tier players should look at what characters cover their bad matchups, and it could be the case that their low tier character is perfectly fine to keep playing without feeling bad, as long as you have that secondary for backup.

this is sort of the major point to a counterpick tier list, absolutely. USF4 is the ez comparison since it's the only mainstream FG that goes down the path PM is going w/r/t balance, so lemme go back to that:

if you were to actually look through the top ~50 USF4 players in the world, a surprisingly small number of them stick solely to a top 3 character. many players, with infiltration arguably being the best example of this, instead have a small pool of mid-to-high tiers that cover a majority of their matchups, so that while they still work within unique rules, long-term they still always have 5-5 matchups at worst. meanwhile, some players can solo-main top tiers and fall flat, because in that metagame, even those top tiers have some oddball matchups that can be exploited (yun loses to balrog/boxer, as an example, something which seems to snuff kazunoko whenever PR balrog happens to be around)

 

[Xykness]

What I find interesting about this is how that will hold up in practicality:

Lets say Character X has fairly even MUs across the board, but gets bopped by Character Y. Conceivably, one could either be a main of CharY or have a pocket CharY for the Match-Up and put a stop to CharX's bracket run. CharZ however has a much better time vs CharY and the CharX main can use him to "patch" his hole vs CharY.

Given that CharZ exists to even out the hole of CharX's match-ups, is it not fair to say that CharX is better by the fact that CharZ exists? Also, if somebody wins using both CharX and CharZ, isnt that technically not a "solo" win?

So which mega evolution are we using again?

 

[_Chrome]

Yeah MK plays the low % game a lot like Sheik, which is why learning how to jc grab and boost grab is incredibly important. You really learn how to be swordballin' when you get around to playing against Falco and especially Fox. In fact, playing against any of the Melee top tiers will help you improve by quite a bit (as with any other characters I suppose).

 

[Pherae77]

Can anyone give me the rundown on Roy right now? In 3.5, I know a lot of people had him top 5, but it seems now a lot of people think he's only mid tier/ high mid tier.

 

[DMG]

Can anyone give me the rundown on Roy right now? In 3.5, I know a lot of people had him top 5, but it seems now a lot of people think he's only mid tier/ high mid tier.

Playing Roy in 3.6 = You have balls

 

[DrinkingFood]

I think it's ****ing stupid people think he's anything short of amazing now due to a SUPER MAJOR CHANGE OF... a slightly worse recovery. Either you should have had him lower to begin with, or the logic of "he got nerfed, he must have dropped drastically" doesn't stand in the first place. Roy still seems like a better marth to me tbh. Better normals and conversions all around seems to me enough to make up for a small difference in movement ability (and even then, he still has better SHFFLs)

 

[Deleted member]

Roy's pretty good. He has a lot of good MUs vs the relevant top 15 characters but has some random really hard 6-4 or 65-35 matchups, so you'll often want to use Roy as a secondary and main someone who has a bit more consistent of a MU spreadsheet. I do Tink/Roy and it works

 

[DMG]

Pretty sure Roy Dtilt got hit and something with ledge grab height. Not sure if recovery grab box, or his placement after letting go of the edge? Thought it was related to ledge dashes being harder now. Bit more than just slight recovery nerf either way

 

[Deleted member]

His Up B doesn't have the float anymore, his ledge grabbox was shrunk, the ledge release glitch was fixed so he doesn't have something like 12 frames of intangibility upon ledge dashing, d tilt tip hitbox --20bkb, dair tip is weaker, DED was cleaned up, everything else was like minor upsmash/down b fixes iirc.

Roy didn't get too many nerfs overall, but they very heavily affect his toolkit. The Up B and Ledge dash/ledge grabbox changes are specifically what're important, as they make all of his risk/reward heavily favored in risk now since he can't cheese up b his way onto the stage. Marth/Roy are probably pretty close now, they're better in specific matchups rather than Roy being strictly better than Marth like he was in 3.5. Claiming that 3.6 Roy is still way better than Marth just shows a lack of experience with either character at high level play.

The lower dash speed and more land lag on aerials compared to marth are pretty relevant, it's not a "small difference". The lowered dash speed means you rely more in your normals, which makes some matchups particularly worse for Roy than Marth (ex. Fox). The additional L cancel landing lag on aerials like Uair and Fair means that they're worse on shield + it's significantly harder to abuse Roys disjoint vs shield since his tips do poor damage. Marth can do stuff like SH late tipper fair on shield and it's incredibly safe due to the additional shield stun and 7f lcancel landing lag, aka Roys SHFFLs aren't just strictly better.

oh no I'm replying to this thread someone please help

 

[PlateProp]

It's probably because of Sethlon quitting that most people think Roy is mid tier now

 

[TheGravyTrain]

Roy dtilt had its tip kb matched to melee, making it slightly less free against asdi down. Lunchables also commonly brings up how you can no longer dtilt fsmash for free at 0. His ledge release point was lowered to be more in line with other human characters as it wasn't intended to be higher, some sort of glitch. This negatively impacts invincibility of ledgedashes. The aforementioned recovery Nerf is the removal of the optional (absurd) hang time on Marth/Roy's up b. Now it falls like it is supposed to, making it much easier to roll from the ledge.

Those are the changes I remember, though their could be more.

 

[Juushichi]

basically, roy is more fair so he sucks.

play meta knight, wolf, rob, gnw or fox instead

am i doing it right, guys?

 

[Player -0]

Isn't that the mentality of people playing for money ._.?

Edit - I worded this really badly. I don't want like 4 replies to this.

 

[wiztick]

Isn't that the mentality of people playing for money ._.?

Edit - I worded this really badly. I don't want like 4 replies to this.

since PM went gold, those who look obviously better than most(fawks) would be more tempting since thier char is never getting changed,

unlike SF4 PM and melee has 1 to 3 characters that have no bad matchups making it all easier to not invest into "fair" chars

TLDR: yes

 

[Player -0]

Oh gad. It begins.

I regret everything

 

[TheNotoriousTFB]

I feel like the dev team changing Roy's d-tilt was the wrong way to go about nerfing roy. But i dont think it actually made him that much worse just not s tier anymore.

 

[Jolteon]

It's probably because of Sethlon quitting that most people think Roy is mid tier now

No longer seeing Roy dittos in GFs of popular stream every week = Roy is mid tier.

Same thing as when TLS was just Xanadu in list format.

 

[JesteRace]

Roy won a big tournament, though, so he's clearly top 5.

 

[_Chrome]

Ivysaur won a tournament too guys!! That means it's overpowered since it definitely couldn't be the player that outplayed their opponents...

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

bang bang luigi is top 5

 

[TheNotoriousTFB]

Wait so you're telling me that 70% of the cast is top 5?????

 

[nimigoha]

Pretty much like 30 characters have been argued by people to be top 20.

 

[TheNotoriousTFB]

imo there is kinda a top 3 (MK/Fox/Diddy) and then the majority of the cast are so close it doesnt really matter and then bottom 2 being Bowser and zard. but yeah the majority of the cast you can at least consider for top 10

 

[_Chrome]

Charizard is not worse than ICs, Ganondorf, Olimar, Yoshi, Zelda, Kirby or "The Ooze", amongst others. Also don't forget about Wolf!

 

[TheNotoriousTFB]

Ganon and Kirby are the only other two that i would consider in the very bottom of my personal tier list but i cant put them in the same tier as bowser and zard because they just have more options than those two. For me its really hard to place wolf because i dont play against any good ones and you dont often see good wolfs anymore. I feel like since rat doesnt play and after chillins death i dont get to see many good wolf players anymore.

 

[Life]

Fox/Wolf/Diddy in some order (probably that one) seems like the most reasonable Top 3 based on the information available to me personally.

I'm seriously considering Mewtwo as a contender for the next spot after that. I might be biased, but he's very good about being able to choose when to attack or avoid the opponent, which is a very powerful trait to have that is shared by the top 3 I mentioned.

 

[TheNotoriousTFB]

Na there are plenty of other characters which are better than m2 so it probably is bias, but once people have figured out how to play him after 3.02 i wouldnt be surprised if he comes back to being some s tier character again.

 

[_Chrome]

I'm curious, do you know how Charizard works? Because I'm pretty sure he has more options than Kirby and Ganondorf. Kirby only has crouching shenanigans, 5 slow midair jumps, some decent aerials and a good dash attack plus his dthrow. He has poor range and is really slow... I wish he would've been buffed but we didn't get that luxury. As for Ganon he's only ever fast when wave-bouncing his float and wavelanding, but he doesn't have many tools to win neutral besides wavebounce bairs on shield, his flame choke, or fair/nair. He's really telegraphed is his problem. As for zard... His rar nair and bair are really good combined with his great run/dash speed, his incredible ftilt and dtilt for spacing, excellent tech chasing and his glide shenanigans. Look up Kysce, Dingo, or JOE! and you'll see some really good Charizard play. He plays Marth-like is what most people say. In fact, Marth vs Zard is kinda like Marth dittos from Melee and it's super fun.

 

[Life]

Additional Zard players of note include Mask, Zen, and I think Zekflop as well? There are supposedly a weird number of Zard players in France, actually.

 

[TheNotoriousTFB]

Ive played alot of kirby and it could be that i just see potential which isnt actually there but i feel like his ability to edgeguard literally anyone with relative ease makes up for the lack of range there is. Gannon i dont consider solo main viable purley because of the fact that his matchups are far more stage dependant than most characters seem to be. But i will look up some zard videos of them because ive never realy been able to see a well developed zard.

 

[DMG]

Additional Zard players of note include Mask, Zen, and I think Zekflop as well? There are supposedly a weird number of Zard players in France, actually.

France is like 90% of the overall Zard population.

 

[JesteRace]

So why does MK have such terrible results proportional to his general tier list placings?

 

[TheNotoriousTFB]

Yeah at Heir 2 i played 5 french players in PM and 3 of them used Zard and the other 2 used samus aparently they are the main 2 pm characters there.

 

[DMG]

So why does MK have such terrible results proportional to his general tier list placings?

Many of his MU's against characters he arguably "beats" are still close enough realistically for the opponent to outplay. This is also made easier by the above average combo food MK is.

MK also generally has a lack of players good enough to exhaustively break down the characters options from "this looks really good" into "At 30% against 12 characters, using x DI, I have 2 frames to do IDC as a guaranteed follow up after Dthrow". There might be some people getting close to this, but there's certainly not a national presence across all regions that helps develop the character widely.

 

[Life]

A lot of the MK hype mostly came out of the woodwork post-disbandment. There's always been a little bit, but people are suddenly calling him top 3?

 

[_Chrome]

The way MK works as DMG pointed out is that MK has to play each MU really differently (unlike ex. Link, Fox, Falcon, etc.). Not only are a lot his moves active for one frame, he has transcendent priority (which is a double-edged sword), low air speed, and many of his attacks hit at sakurai angles. This means that at different percentages against different falling speeds and weights, MK can get certain follow-ups against a general grouping of characters (like having the same follow-ups against Fox and Falco, or Snake and Link). Not only that, but characters like Link and Snake may have similar attributes but they have completely different tools. These factors combined lead to a character that has to play with precision, a good understanding of matchups as well as when to implement certain mix-ups and psychological play. He's really complex and underdeveloped, which makes him a riot to play as. If you make a mistake you're punished, but if you play well you are really rewarded. You get what you put in with him. He has a lot of potential.

EDIT: I think Meta Knight could be top three. I can't see anyone logically putting him outside of the Top Ten/Top Tier.