Tier List Speculation

[Xykness]

PMBR never stop keeping us down.

Yeah I also heard M2k was gonna use GnW. It'll be great once he picks him up and does better with his Melee characters on bad days. Interested to see what he might bring to the table though, Also curious to see more of Nintendude's GnW if he still has interest in the game. Now that it's solid we can see more people sink in the time to solidify tier lists.

Still don't think GnW is all ~that~ good. It's just like a Luigi/Zelda thing where it's weird, you get hit by things, and you're mad because you wanna run at the opponent and dank on them until they're dead, but there are hitboxes in the way and they interact weirdly.

I agree. Once people start to understand G&W, I do not believe that people will consider him as "broken."
Some players here in Columbus thought Luigi was broken until they learned the unorthodox MU. Same should happen with G&W imo. Character is still mad good though.

 

[Player -0]

To clarify I don't think G&W is top 5 or such. He's really good and has stuff but some matchups hurt too much.

Once people learn to SDI I think a lot of characters will go down a lot (rip Ness Fair kek).

I played P:M for the first time in a while and Ness' mag felt different. I only played for like 5 minutes so that might've been it but ehh idk.

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

the more I think about it the more I like olimar and think he's better than a few notable characters (ness, roy, and snake are a few characters that I think are generally overvalued as being better than olimar)
olimar still has issues with campy foxes (then again who doesn't) but pikmin toss is still really good and pikmin rotation and farming for purples/blues for kill throws has the potential to be very stupid

one of olimar's biggest weaknesses is his recovery but I think large blastzones + characters who don't have horizontally sending moves (ie not shiek) have some trouble edgeguarding olimar due to his floatiness and horizontal aerial movement

like I think theoretically if olimar farms his pikmin right he can kill almost everybody in the cast before 100% while only definitively winning neutral once or twice

but this isn't super theorycraft bros and few people have yet to make olimar work right

also olimar loses a lot when he misses a grab because it has such a ****ing long recovery

 

[FreeGamer]

I played P:M for the first time in a while and Ness' mag felt different. I only played for like 5 minutes so that might've been it but ehh idk.

that's because it deals a little more damage in 3.6

 

[Kulty]

Guys,

Do you feel the balance gap in PM 3.6 will get bigger as we progress through the metagame? I tried to play for fun an all-star with every character in the roster and I pretty much enjoyed everyone that I played, mostly. I main Ganondorf along with Wario as a secondary for now. Any opinions on Wario?

 

[_Chrome]

As far as opinions go *AHEM*... But let's not open that salt-induced discussion again. I for one think Wario is really good. He lives a long time, he's super difficult to combo, his combos are incredible with early kills galore. His neutral game is kinda meh: you gotta work around his low range and decent speed by being a generally smart player. Uthrow uairs work at pretty much every percent with this guy, as well as uthrow into pretty much whatever you want. Force you opponents into shield and punish them for it with a bite.

Oh my god, I can't resist saying it: Wario is dumb. Someone restrain me next time. Have fun using a really competitive character whose downsides include: Marth's sword and an overrated dtilt. Learn how to DACUS across the stage for a quick approach, good knockback to combo into and a free 18% (like, rly guys... rly? 18% -_-). Wario is the DK/Puff hybrid that's actually good.

 

[Player -0]

I'm glad I play Marth's sword.

It makes pretty much every match up so much easier.

 

[nimigoha]

I'm glad I play Marth's sword.

It makes pretty much every match up so much easier.

"I don't like what he's doing... looks tricksy... I'm just gonna wave this around over here and hope he doesn't try to pull a fast one on me..." - Marth in pretty much any unfamiliar matchup

 

[Player -0]

"I don't like what he's doing... looks tricksy... I'm just gonna run around over here and hope he doesn't try to pull a fast one on me..." - <applicable character> (Fox/Falcon/etc) in pretty much any unfamiliar matchup

fixed.

 

[Kulty]

I just checked the MU community chart: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Vinpf09oTN7z_tsu9Muz3U30xKtJvDMdTowpFxbxIKY/edit?pli=1#gid=0. Characters that have above average MUs are(him being average). First off, is the MU chart outdated? Second, does that mean that they are among the best?

 

[xquqx]

I just checked the MU community chart: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Vinpf09oTN7z_tsu9Muz3U30xKtJvDMdTowpFxbxIKY/edit?pli=1#gid=0. Characters that have above average MUs are(him being average). First off, is the MU chart outdated? Second, does that mean that they are among the best?

The match up chart is considered hilariously inaccurate by most due to the lack of real high level experience most match ups have, unfortunately. Once more people become better with their characters and get more experience with other high level mains, then it'll become more accurate, but for now treat what it says with a grain of salt.

 

[Kulty]

The match up chart is considered hilariously inaccurate by most due to the lack of real high level experience most match ups have, unfortunately. Once more people become better with their characters and get more experience with other high level mains, then it'll become more accurate, but for now treat what it says with a grain of salt.

I just find this MU chart really weird. I don't know, but that's just me though...

 

[Player -0]

The Pit chart looks super weird for most of the match ups.

Why is he +2 vs. Kirby and -2 for Wario for one example.

There's a bunch others too but I might be off.

 

[Strong Badam]

There really isn't a good matchup chart for this game. All attempts have been too inclusive of the general community and not only haven't weighted the opinions of good players, often don't draw their interest in the first place.

 

[Luk101]

To clarify I don't think G&W is top 5 or such. He's really good and has stuff but some matchups hurt too much.

Once people learn to SDI I think a lot of characters will go down a lot (rip Ness Fair kek).

I played P:M for the first time in a while and Ness' mag felt different. I only played for like 5 minutes so that might've been it but ehh idk.

Ness's mag had increased damage, higher base knockback, and a lower knockback growth. It made it sooo much better. It probably felt weird though cause it was weaker. As for the SDI, yeah it's gonna be a problem once people get good enough to SDI everything. Ness's can get a lot off of full hop fairs to a djc aerial, so once people learn to like sdi into and down (this is my guess of what would be bad I could be wrong) we will lose a lot of followups.

 

[Player -0]

I meant I was magging Ganon low percent and he literally froze in place for 1/4 of a second and then nada.

Probably CPU SDI or something.

I know the mag changes. I was messing around for 1 match really quick.


Also how are you getting anything off of FH Fair. I don't see how that works in any sense.

 

[zpxociv]

Fox is SS, Ganondorf is C, Bowser is F. Because it's obvious. Because PMDT only knows how to pander to melee players that don't want anyone else to be as good as Fox. I don't even want to look any deeper into the shamelessness of PM's tiers.

 

[C0rvus]

I mean, I like Bowser a lot, but he and Ganon have much worse base designs than Fox. Being big, slow, and easy to combo and edgeguard in a game like this is bad. Unless they get some overtuned tools or a broken gimmick, completely bridging the gap to Fox isn't realistic. You can't rightly expect a game with so many characters going in so many different directions to be balanced. You know what games are balanced? Ones with bland and samey characters.

If you think keeping Fox the best panders to Melee players, I don't know who you play Melee with lol. Certainly not floaty mains.

 

[_Chrome]

Z zpxociv

Wow this discussion became random real quick. I mean, if you look at the top tiers... most of them are agreed to be PM characters. Yeah, lots of people think Fox is the best, but where the hell is Falco on most people's lists? PM doesn't pander to Melee players; most of them don't even think Fox is the best character. If this game pandered to Melee, Jigglypuff wouldn't be **** lol. Tbh I don't even know why I'm responding to a comment like that lol.

 

[zpxociv]

Z zpxociv

Wow this discussion became random real quick. I mean, if you look at the top tiers... most of them are agreed to be PM characters. Yeah, lots of people think Fox is the best, but where the hell is Falco on most people's lists? PM doesn't pander to Melee players; most of them don't even think Fox is the best character. If this game pandered to Melee, Jigglypuff wouldn't be **** lol. Tbh I don't even know why I'm responding to a comment like that lol.

I'm not talking about this anymore because Standard Toaster doesn't allow contrarian opinions.

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

>latest post by Ignored Member

I don't see what yall are talking about lmao

 

[Farquaad]

Oh my god, I can't resist saying it: Wario is dumb. Someone restrain me next time. Have fun using a really competitive character whose downsides include: Marth's sword and an overrated dtilt. Learn how to DACUS across the stage for a quick approach, good knockback to combo into and a free 18% (like, rly guys... rly? 18% -_-). Wario is the DK/Puff hybrid that's actually good.

Idk if it works with bigger characters, but with the Squirtman I just had to smash both sticks away and I was a-ok to punish the endlag. Kinda reminds me of people who complain about Squirtle's Up-B, except that's even easier to SDI

 

[nimigoha]

I can see where he's coming from though. DACUS is pretty bursty.

People who complain about Squirtle's Up-B... I didn't even know they existed. One of the easier moves to SDI and one of if not the most telegraphed moves in the game. After you get out of it you also have eons to punish him for it.

"Uair DJ Uair hmm Squirtle's below me and I'm sorta near the ceiling. Gosh what could happen next?" I feel sorry for you if you have people complaining at you about that.

 

[_Chrome]

People complain about Squirtle's upB... I shouldn't be surprised. People complain about everything these days.

 

[Luk101]

I meant I was magging Ganon low percent and he literally froze in place for 1/4 of a second and then nada.

Probably CPU SDI or something.

I know the mag changes. I was messing around for 1 match really quick.


Also how are you getting anything off of FH Fair. I don't see how that works in any sense.

Huh that is weird. Yeah the cpus have ridiculous sdi on certain things, especially kill moves. And as for the fh fair, it's really good at the right percent to knock them up (spacies higher floaties lower) and it's good if they are recovering high and you catch them with a fair. And since you didn't do like a rising fair, you can follow up with like a rising up air or nair or dair or sometimes bair to get the kill off the side. It's really good, but if people started sdi ing out of it, it would make that option a lot less useful and could put Ness into a disadvantageous position if they got back to stage faster than Ness could.

 

[Juushichi]

Fox is SS, Ganondorf is C, Bowser is F. Because it's obvious. Because PMDT only knows how to pander to melee players that don't want anyone else to be as good as Fox. I don't even want to look any deeper into the shamelessness of PM's tiers.

N I C E

Did you know that a lot of characters who are in Melee and not top tier characters were drastically improved?
Did you also know that although Fox's changelist has only changed minutely over time that he still was drastically weakened in regards to NTSC Melee?
Did you also know that there are a handful of characters that are considered to be roughly as good as Fox in the current version?
Did you also know that even weak characters have shown to be able to win and compete well, even in contrast to public opinion?

You may not have been aware of this, but looking deeper into the game may show these things to be correct.

Thank you for your opinion!

 

[Player -0]

Huh that is weird. Yeah the cpus have ridiculous sdi on certain things, especially kill moves. And as for the fh fair, it's really good at the right percent to knock them up (spacies higher floaties lower) and it's good if they are recovering high and you catch them with a fair. And since you didn't do like a rising fair, you can follow up with like a rising up air or nair or dair or sometimes bair to get the kill off the side. It's really good, but if people started sdi ing out of it, it would make that option a lot less useful and could put Ness into a disadvantageous position if they got back to stage faster than Ness could.

If you mean solely for edgeguarding situations it's still much worse than a Nair/Nair, even if it's by the stage.

If neutral it folds to essentially any counterplay, especially dash dancing, which is pretty much every character's go to

 

[Kulty]

N I C E

Did you know that a lot of characters who are in Melee and not top tier characters were drastically improved?
Did you also know that although Fox's changelist has only changed minutely over time that he still was drastically weakened in regards to NTSC Melee?
Did you also know that there are a handful of characters that are considered to be roughly as good as Fox in the current version?
Did you also know that even weak characters have shown to be able to win and compete well, even in contrast to public opinion?

You may not have been aware of this, but looking deeper into the game may show these things to be correct.

Thank you for your opinion!

Even some slow characters like Ganon can win? Idk, but I feel that every character can win in PM. It's just question of knowledge and MU experience that a Smasher should acquire. Sure, there might be some that are easier to win than others, but oh well... Every character has their own set of design, so I'm not gonna complain about Ganon being weak. I still think he's awesome.

 

[Ace55]

Learn how to DACUS across the stage for a quick approach, good knockback to combo into and a free 18% (like, rly guys... rly? 18% -_-).

How is that a free 18%? It's unsafe on shield, can be SDI'd and is easily outspaced. It's an amazing DACUS but calling it free is kinda bull.

I actually feel the Marth matchup isn't anywhere near as bad as people suggest it is.

 

[Kulty]

From you guys' experience, what are some characters in PM that you always hear say ''This character is OP!''?

 

[FreeGamer]

From you guys' experience, what are some characters in PM that you always hear say ''This character is OP!''?

G&W and Zelda.

 

[Kulty]

G&W and Zelda.

Anybody else? I always hear OP things about these characters mainly:. First off, while I think that Zelda and G&W are good characters, I don't think they're OP, because once we know how to exploit their weaknesses, I don't think that they can be in the top 10.

 

[Frost | Odds]

From you guys' experience, what are some characters in PM that you always hear say ''This character is OP!''?

Bowser.

 

[Bazkip]

he still was drastically weakened

I wouldn't go that far...

 

[ThegreatVaporeon1]

From you guys' experience, what are some characters in PM that you always hear say ''This character is OP!''?

Luigi...mainly cuz of his upb/up smash

 

[MLGF]

From you guys' experience, what are some characters in PM that you always hear say ''This character is OP!''?

Snake
Because Snake is dumb yo.

 

[Player -0]

Random.

Think about it. It has such a high chance to get the OP match up vs. the other player. This means it has little chance of picking into an unwinnable matchup.

 

[Juushichi]

I wouldn't go that far...

Go back and check the differences between NTSC Melee Fox and 3.6 Project M Fox. It's a lot of stuff that adds up over time and this is aside from the interactions he has with some other characters.

 

[trash?]

honestly, even his laser-camp nerfs would count pretty well as a noted weakening all on its own, that's a huge deal in the context of a year of melee wherein most GFs could be easily boiled down to "armada camps with lasers, gets paid a whole bunch". his lasers have other stuff from PM engine quirks (wavebounce shenanigans and stuff) but on a whole it's worse for how a fox would use it in melee to stack matchups

likewise, firefox having actual landing lag is a big deal, it forces him to emphasize really wanting the ledge on recover (and, unlike sheik, he doesn't even really have the amount of ways to mix up that ledge-wanting) which you can play around much better

he's still really good, mind, and I don't doubt that he's top tier for a moment, but he's a nearly-fully-developed character in a metagame where less-developed characters are going to be allowed to work with their strong stuff as much as possible for years to come. people are gonna find ways to deal with him, I'm sure

 

[Bazkip]

Go back and check the differences between NTSC Melee Fox and 3.6 Project M Fox. It's a lot of stuff that adds up over time and this is aside from the interactions he has with some other characters.

Lasers do less damage, but are still an excellent tool for making the opponent play your game
Upsmash is weaker, but is still an extremely powerful kill move, especially considering it's speed, Fox's speed, and his ability to lead into it
Shine spike is less potent but still an excellent edgeguard tool
Shine loses its one frame of intangibility but is still likely to beat out attacks by virtue of being faster than nearly all other attacks
Firefox has more landing lag but that rarely comes into play (and the special fall landing lag increase on sideB/upB is minimal)
Jab followups are less guaranteed but still doable

Annnnd...I think that's pretty much everything

Absolutely no way is that "drastically weakened"