Tier List Speculation

[trash?]

Firefox has more landing lag but that rarely comes into play (and the special fall landing lag increase on sideB/upB is minimal)

if you're ganon and the only thing you can do is a relatively useless for edgeguarding grab, I guess?

this is the same thing ppl said abt sheik in '03, just because you haven't learned optimal punishes doesn't make them impossible

 

[Deleted member]

here crucify me for putting my ideas on the internet

 

[DMG]

Nobody plays Fox, but you go to Smashboard rankings and he leads top 16, top 8, and 1st place finishes

Who the Hell are you secret Fox players I never see on stream Grand Finals

 

[Life]

Nobody plays Fox, but you go to Smashboard rankings and he leads top 16, top 8, and 1st place finishes

Who the Hell are you secret Fox players I never see on stream Grand Finals

You've been around long enough to know this, but other people in the thread probably aren't: unless I missed something since the last time I checked those rankings who-knows-how-many months ago, those are cumulative rankings that haven't been reset in a long time.

 

[Bazkip]

this is the same thing ppl said abt sheik in '03, just because you haven't learned optimal punishes doesn't make them impossible

Uh no I'm talking about how Fox only sometimes get the 20 frames landing lag. The special fall landing lag is only 7 frames.

@Umbreon did you quote me by accident...?

 

[trash?]

Nobody plays Fox, but you go to Smashboard rankings and he leads top 16, top 8, and 1st place finishes

Who the Hell are you secret Fox players I never see on stream Grand Finals

locals won by melee players wanting extra money, mostly

inevitably happens when you have a character ppl have played for a decade and a half and throw him in with completely new concepts, but I guess ppl are just starting to notice this since 3.5 and 3.6 hasn't had anyone immediately as busted as 2.5 sonic or pit (pit's always the funniest example to me, because armada played PM 2.1 for the first time, saw pit and with little to no practice beforehand won a PM tourney because he found out how easy it is to casually carry ppl off to the blast zone within a night, it was hilarious)

I'd say "it'll change eventually", but honestly fox is always gonna have massive numbers at a low-to-mid level, because there's always going to be melee players wanting a quick buck at their local weeklies, and the game encourages them by having a character that they can just do their melee stuff on. it'll level out past that, hopefully

 

[DMG]

You've been around long enough to know this, but other people in the thread probably aren't: unless I missed something since the last time I checked those rankings who-knows-how-many months ago, those are cumulative rankings that haven't been reset in a long time.

Ah, I was under the impression they reworked the rankings already, been talked about for months I feel like

 

[trash?]

Uh no I'm talking about how Fox only sometimes get the 20 frames landing lag. The special fall landing lag is only 7 frames.

my argument remains unchanged, just because you don't know how to punish it doesn't make it impossible. you can argue "that's not reactable!", but that's not the point of ledge mix-ups, if it was that simple sheik players would just never bother trying to recover

 

[G13_Flux]

His Up B doesn't have the float anymore, his ledge grabbox was shrunk, the ledge release glitch was fixed so he doesn't have something like 12 frames of intangibility upon ledge dashing, d tilt tip hitbox --20bkb, dair tip is weaker, DED was cleaned up, everything else was like minor upsmash/down b fixes iirc.

Roy didn't get too many nerfs overall, but they very heavily affect his toolkit. The Up B and Ledge dash/ledge grabbox changes are specifically what're important, as they make all of his risk/reward heavily favored in risk now since he can't cheese up b his way onto the stage. Marth/Roy are probably pretty close now, they're better in specific matchups rather than Roy being strictly better than Marth like he was in 3.5. Claiming that 3.6 Roy is still way better than Marth just shows a lack of experience with either character at high level play.

The lower dash speed and more land lag on aerials compared to marth are pretty relevant, it's not a "small difference". The lowered dash speed means you rely more in your normals, which makes some matchups particularly worse for Roy than Marth (ex. Fox). The additional L cancel landing lag on aerials like Uair and Fair means that they're worse on shield + it's significantly harder to abuse Roys disjoint vs shield since his tips do poor damage. Marth can do stuff like SH late tipper fair on shield and it's incredibly safe due to the additional shield stun and 7f lcancel landing lag, aka Roys SHFFLs aren't just strictly better.

oh no I'm replying to this thread someone please help

Pretty late to this one, but im curious of your opinion on which characters you think roy does better against compared to marth.

 

[Deleted member]

Pretty late to this one, but im curious of your opinion on which characters you think roy does better against compared to marth.

Metaknight, Falcon, Sheik, Lucario, ZSS (Maybe Mewtwo? Don't have enough info on the MU yet).

I'd rather go Marth vs. Fox, Falco, Wolf, Diddy Kong, ROB, GnW, Snake, and Wario.

There are probably some other ones but those're the most important ones since those characters are all relevant to the meta.

 

[Bazkip]

my argument remains unchanged, just because you don't know how to punish it doesn't make it impossible. you can argue "that's not reactable!", but that's not the point of ledge mix-ups, if it was that simple sheik players would just never bother trying to recover

...I never said it was impossible? I don't know where you're getting that from. All I'm saying is that the nerf wasn't that significant.

 

[_Chrome]

Metaknight, Falcon, Sheik, Lucario, ZSS (Maybe Mewtwo? Don't have enough info on the MU yet).

I'd rather go Marth vs. Fox, Falco, Wolf, Diddy Kong, ROB, GnW, Snake, and Wario.

There are probably some other ones but those're the most important ones since those characters are all relevant to the meta.

What's your reasoning on why you would rather go Roy against ZSS than Marth? I would've thought from my experience with her that Roy-ZSS was easier than Marth-ZSS. I agree with all of the other statements though.

 

[Avro-Arrow]

@Lunchables What makes Roy do better against ZSS than Marth? I'd assume it's because ZSS can force Marth to throw out a move in hopes of getting tipper easier than she can force Roy to toss out a move since Roy's spacing is all about hitting the hilt. Is that what you'd say? @Shokio

 

[Bazkip]

I'm starting to think _Chrome and Avro-Arrow might be the same person

 

[_Chrome]

He copied me I swear on me mum.

 

[DMG]

Picture killing ZSS with Roy

Now picture it with Marth

Answer found

 

[Player -0]

I don't understand. I just sword her until she's offstage and then she gets boned because tethers.

 

[Zach777]

@Lunchables

As a Mewtwo main, I say that Roy is harder to fight than Marth. I will keep it quick.

Mewtwo can destroy both FE boys recovery with little difference between Marth and Roy.

Marth and Roy are on equal footing in the recovery department against M2 lol.

What makes it harder for Marth is that M2 will usually live for quite a while due to floatiness, strong recovery, and medium weight. M2's heavier than Marth I believe. Roy has no trouble

Marth's attributes make it easy for M2 to combo him. Makes Marth have almost the same combo food issue as Roy .

Marth dies to upthrow a whole lot quicker than Roy.

Hope this helps.

 

[_Chrome]

Mewtwo's weight is 85; Marth's is 87.

 

[G13_Flux]

for one, roy absolutely destroys tethers. arguably best tether punisher in the game imo. for marth, yeah, hes got dair, but you have to time it EXTREMELY well in order to get the spike on a forced real in. for all practical purposes, ZSS has enough ways to mix up her recovery and reel in timings that spiking a reel in defense of the ledge isnt going to happen often. roys dair is much more practical against tetherers due to the location of the spike hitboxes (up on his head and shoulder), in addition to the meat of his sword being one of his best set ups into his best kill options (fsmash, bair, sometimes even a spike). it makes the fact that marth can go deeper offstage not as relevant, since ZSSs offstage mobility defends pretty well against deep edge guarders (2nd midair jump with down b, double jump boost with up b, divekick burst movement mixups, projectile, etc.), and you know shes usually going to converge at the ledge anyways.

_Chrome m2s weight is 97 actually. you can check the stats page. hes heavier than marth by a good amount.

 

[~Frozen~]

Mewtwo's weight is 85; Marth's is 87.

Those are their Melee weights. Mewtwo's weight in PM is 97.

Marthritis is pretty real against Mewtwo, combine that with how M2 can abuse Marth's disadvantaged state and it doesn't seem very good for him. Roy on the other hand has a more potent CC Dtilt to deter Mewtwo from using his own, and he has more reliable killing options on him. I'd say Mewtwo-Marth is around the 6-4 area, while Roy is roughly even or like 55-45 for Mewtwo.

 

[TheNotoriousTFB]

Go back and check the differences between NTSC Melee Fox and 3.6 Project M Fox. It's a lot of stuff that adds up over time and this is aside from the interactions he has with some other characters.

The reason why fox is still considered one of the best in the game even with the fairly large amount of nerfs he has had is because of his ridiculously good matchup spread. He has some moves which are just too good to make him anything less than top tier. Also the amount of options he has is just dumb, in every situation fox has a large amount of options whereas a majority of characters have limited options. Its the way hes designed, which is fairly poorly.

 

[Player -0]

I think he knows this.

The main point was Fox got nerfed and other characters are on par with Fox.

 

[TheNotoriousTFB]

Only Diddy MK and maybe lucario or rob if they get developed more could be on par with fox from what ive seen. But there are ALOT of characters which are close to this top level.

 

[Strong Badam]

Yeah, a lot of characters are close. Fox is WAY more manageable in this game than in SSBM or previous patches.

 

[Bazkip]

trash? I'm still wondering wtf you were saying to me

Cause it definitely wasn't in response to anything I was saying...

 

[trash?]

you kept looking at fox's nerfs in a bubble, I'm calling you a doofus for doing so

idk what else needs to be explained in detail

 

[Bazkip]

you kept looking at fox's nerfs in a bubble, I'm calling you a doofus for doing so

idk what else needs to be explained in detail

Uh no? You were saying that I was somehow making the claim that it was impossible to edeguard Fox and then some other points that didn't seem at all relevant to what I was saying.

All the things that got nerfed on him are still excellent, inside or outside of a bubble. Saying that the nerfs are "drastic" is ridiculous, they're moderate at most.

Nothing you've said has addressed anything I've stated.

 

[trash?]

...alright, by that point then you're just playing with really silly semantics?

 

[DMG]

itt: nerds nerding it up

Just get on with it, Fox is OP and UP. Please McNerfBuff him

Falcon will be best character in the future anyways

 

[Bazkip]

...alright, by that point then you're just playing with really silly semantics?

I disagree on the weight you and @Juushichi put on the nerfs, I'd say that's a bit more than just silly semantics but whatever if you're just going to write off everything I say then there's no point continuing to discuss with you.

 

[TheNotoriousTFB]

Imagine how many fewer arguments there would be in pm/melee if fox never existed.

 

[trash?]

okay, now you're arguing about the semantics of your semantics this is just getting silly

to try and rebound this mess into s/t that might be less so: what fox's overall MU spread vs. other top tiers/high tiers?

 

[Bazkip]

okay, now you're arguing about the semantics of your semantics this is just getting silly

to try and rebound this mess into s/t that might be less so: what fox's overall MU spread vs. other top tiers/high tiers?

This could've been avoided if you actually had a ****ing discussion with me
We could even still have it if you really want to

Or you could just keep dismissing everything I say

Up to you

 

[jtm94]

Fox is "more" manageable, but that doesn't make him manageable. If I ever only played to win I would undoubtedly use Fox/Wolf. I don't think there's a character he loses to and if he does it's by a slight margin. The Fox PM meta isn't pushed very far though and I honestly don't see any crazy good Fox players aside from a few sprinkled here and there. A few choice PM characters do have very strong punishes that far eclipse Marth's melee punish game on fastfallers. That means he has to make even less mistakes with a slightly weaker tool kit putting a lot of pressure on just not getting hit, ever. These things bring it all to an acceptable level, but I agree with Bazkip that the changes aren't exactly DRASTIC.

I feel like the characters that can out neutral Fox possible being Wolf, MK, Diddy, whoever else? Just don't have crazy strong punishes on him and rely on tech chasing/reads making it harder even if they can get a lot of hits in. Then characters like Ike and GnW can just dank on him if they can net a grab. I think Sonic is a Grade A fox slayer, but only for people that don't know what's going on. I do think there is some counter counter play that could be developed, however.

 

[TheNotoriousTFB]

The majority of people who really hate playing against fox because of his neutral game should play some fox so you understand his neutral in order to counter it, he still probably has one of the best neutrals even once you understand how to play against it but it certainly isnt as unbeatable as it originally seems.

 

[DMG]

We could all stop this gravy train

Fox spread vs say top 8 of Umbreon List (For MU purpose, first number = Fox. 6:4 = Fox winning against the character)

MK / 55:45
Wolf / 55:45
Diddy / 55:45 - 6:4
Rob / 55:45
ZSS / 6:4+ (some zss mains pessimistic but I'm no expert on the char)
Falcon / 5:5 - 55:45 (gut feeling, is not played out in PM consistently at high enough level)
Sheik / 6:4+ (some Sheik mains pessimistic about char but I'm no expert on her)


Spoiler alert: Fox generally wins

Edit #2: Fox is also a better character than Wolf and the Wolf hype train only goes so far

 

[TheNotoriousTFB]

Diddy vs fox matchup changes drastically if the diddy has a good item game, if they have a good item game then diddy wins, but if not then its a really really bad matchup.

 

[DMG]

Same could be said for opponent. Items are 2 way street unless your char is garbage like D3

 

[Strong Badam]

The majority of people who really hate playing against fox because of his neutral game should play some fox so you understand his neutral in order to counter it, he still probably has one of the best neutrals even once you understand how to play against it but it certainly isnt as unbeatable as it originally seems.

His neutral game is a much much much more manageable with a fast character like your main, Diddy, than with a slow character, which is about half of the cast, likely more.