Tier List Speculation

[Cox Box]

So what characters, if any, have a positive match up vs Fox? If there aren't any, is this just a product of Fox's metagame being much more fleshed out than most PM characters? If so, what are certain characters not using that would let them win the Fox match up? I just have a hard time believing that there isn't a single character in this game that has a winning match up vs Fox.

 

[D e l t a]

So what characters, if any, have a positive match up vs Fox? If there aren't any, is this just a product of Fox's metagame being much more fleshed out than most PM characters? If so, what are certain characters not using that would let them win the Fox match up? I just have a hard time believing that there isn't a single character in this game that has a winning match up vs Fox.

ROB for starters. I agree with Axe and many others that Marth beats Fox. Tetra believes Kirby wins the Fox MU.

With nerfs to kill power and especially lasers, I think that Puff could be closer to even. Lucas v Fox IMO is dead even. There's also a back and forth about Ivy / DDD vs Fox. Not quite sure the consensus on those two.

Fox's metagame will obviously have more depth to it given the decade and a half since Melee's release and 0 updates to his design (aside from PAL changing a few, non-game-changing aspects). Give it at least a year for 3.6 to expand further in development. We've barely had the full version for under a few months. Furthermore, the majority of its player base has only been around for a year or two, assuming v3.0 post Apex 2014 was when players got into Project M.

 

[Ya Boy GP]

So what characters, if any, have a positive match up vs Fox? If there aren't any, is this just a product of Fox's metagame being much more fleshed out than most PM characters? If so, what are certain characters not using that would let them win the Fox match up? I just have a hard time believing that there isn't a single character in this game that has a winning match up vs Fox.

As of this current point in the metagame, I don't believe anyone beats Fox.

Fox having the undisputed best neutral game gives him more opportunities to hit people, which gives him more opportunities to kill people, which give him more opportunities to win. Him also having a great punish game and great recovery helps a lot with some of the matchups where the neutral is close to even.

Him having an already developed metagame is nice, but it's not that much more developed than other PM characters such as Ness, Toon Link, Lucario, Snake, etc. While those characters definitely have some areas they can be pushed, the same thing can be said for Fox.

 

[Xykness]

As of this current point in the metagame, I don't believe anyone beats Fox.

Fox having the undisputed best neutral game gives him more opportunities to hit people, which gives him more opportunities to kill people, which give him more opportunities to win. Him also having a great punish game and great recovery helps a lot with some of the matchups where the neutral is close to even.

Him having an already developed metagame is nice, but it's not that much more developed than other PM characters such as Ness, Toon Link, Lucario, Snake, etc. While those characters definitely have some areas they can be pushed, the same thing can be said for Fox.

Who says Fox has the best neutral game?

 

[Deleted member]

Who says Fox has the best neutral game?

absolutely everyone who plays the game lmao

 

[SunJester]

Who says Fox has the best neutral game?

Dash Dance

+

 

[Swigo]

I wouldn't say nobody beats Fox in a theoretical end game metagame but currently I think he at least doesn't have any matchups that he definitely loses yet. Also Tetra's crazy Kirby does not beat Fox at all in any way like heck nah

 

[Ripple]

The one MU I actually have faith in DDD is the Fox one.

Lasers simply don't do anything and DDD can punish a shorthop 1/3 of the stage away. Hell, dash dancing in general means nothing to DDD

 

[JesteRace]

Wanna beat the best character in the game? Play Dedede. Wanna beat anyone else? Play anyone else.

 

[MLGF]

So you're saying the best duel mains a guy could have is Fox:DDD?

 

[Life]

No, the best dual main you can have in PM is Fox + Fox-with-a-better-port.

 

[JesteRace]

So you're saying the best duel mains a guy could have is Fox:DDD?

Dedede also beats Fox's other supposed counter, Marth.

 

[jtm94]

Being able to do well vs Fox and Marth is pretty strong and hard to pass up. I've thought about DDD vs Marth for a long time now, but he's just not my speed.

I think reaction tech chasing is rather bogus and player dependent. Maybe vs Fox because the MU is so common. I can get quite a few regrabs in melee, but vs unfamiliar characters I have a hard time distinguishing tech animations. I have a far harder time in PM because of all the different characters tech animations I need to notice. One thing that's nice is that it feels like the PM camera moves preemptively when someone techs so you can use that as a cue too. If we're even on the topic of reaction tech chasing than any character with a solid run speed/good dash dance/tech chase throw will inevitably have a winning MU on Fox. I mean it's easy just get a grab, then ground wobble him until he dies or ends up off stage.

 

[G13_Flux]

what about samus? samus vs fox was even in melee. Shes got a super useful crawl tilt, as well as ice fair (both step ups from melee) and obviously the couple of fox nerfs. granted, samus's tether isnt super long anymore, but still, its hard to say it stays even like it was in melee.

 

[JesteRace]

Samus vs Fox was even? Lol wtf since when?

 

[DMG]

This craziness is all the byproduct of questioning Fox's MU spread. Let that be a lesson in the future

Never doubt our fuzzy overlord

 

[Xykness]

I only throw that out there because it just seems like everyone states Fox as "best character" in Project M when I believe there isn't a whole lot of results or anything to back that up. I had an interesting conversation with our local scene about it recently and who is to say that there can't be characters better than him in this final product? It seems like we generally just accept the idea that "Fox is best" just because he kinda has been in the past, thus just hopping on the bandwagon.

Fox is still among the best though regardless. Guess we shall discover more now that the meta is is being developed more. Would be interesting for discussion.

 

[DMG]

People generally don't put forth solid candidates for #1 when it's not Fox though

Like there's 2 groups of suggestions:

1. Wolf, MK, or some very solid character who is then extrapolated to their theoretical amazing-ness somewhere down the road (ex: Lucas 1 hit = touch of death)

2. Some FOTM choice like G^W


All of this with complicated RPS formulas between 40+ chars, 15-20 of whom seem somewhat tourney viable (possible secondary required or expected), and it's not a wonder why people hesitate to choose some #1 other than Fox. Granted, some old patch chars might have been real close or over that. Fox in PM All Stars / Legends / patch that uses each character's "strongest" version very well might not be the #1 char. At this point though, he seems like most likely candidate.

 

[Strong Badam]

I can't count the number of times someone has come into this thread or told me in person that "Fox isn't the best character" without putting forth an alternative and/or explaining why.

 

[DMG]

The best one is "Fox may have losing MU's, he can't be #1"

 

[Juushichi]

The reason why the current metagame is not doing a ton to close the gap is because Sheik players aren't doing **** to close the gap. Remember that the PM Sheik playerbase reponse to 3.6b's throw changes was to just put their hands up in the air and claim that Sheik has 'no grab game', did anyone even try to adapt and work on their tech chasing? No. The reponse was just that Sheik's dthrow 'did nothing' and to complain about it on forums. People simply don't put in the effort that is required to be good at it.

Hey, I did in 3.6 and do work on Sheik tech chasing among other things and don't complain about it (except **** Peach <3)

 

[TheoryofSmaug]

I have an argument to propose which states that MK wins or at least goes even in the Fax matchup. Busy right now, but I will stick the write up here as soon as I'm finished with it. So... Stayed tuned.

 

[G13_Flux]

hold up. for the record, i never claimed samus to be #1. So if any of the above complaints about people taking a shot in the dark about a number 1 character were in any way directed to my post, then you are sadly mistaken. I was simply talking about a particular MU that can possibly counter fox, since that has been the actual focus of the discussion for at least the past page.

Samus vs Fox was even? Lol wtf since when?

Since a long time. Shes one of the few characters that makes fox approach her on her terms. uthrow > uair combos dont really work well for fox because of her weight, and she is one of few characters that has a consistent escape to shine pressure (up b). CCing nair approaches (nair, what would normally be used to beef through projectile approaches) happens for a long time (again, large weight). she has better survivability from shine spikes on certain stages because of her tether. These are a few main factors that a lot of other characters cant say about the fox MU, especially the other tops (even jiggs and peach get creamed by uthrow> uair combos.). typically, fox segways from neutral > shield pressure > combo > kill pretty damn well sine he has guaranteed grabs and upsmashes out of a waveshine. but samus kind of cuts that transition up, and at all stages mind you. fox cant laser camp so he is forced to rely on things like nair to power through missle; however, getting conversions of a nair from neutral is harder (CC). if he makes it past that stage, gettting conversions off of shield pressure is harder, and getting conversions off a grab doesnt happen without a hard read. AND THEN if he finally gets her to a point offstage, edge guarding her is annoying as crap with bomb jumps and tether. It all adds up

 

[Xykness]

I can't count the number of times someone has come into this thread or told me in person that "Fox isn't the best character" without putting forth an alternative and/or explaining why.

Well I never claimed that he WASN'T but rather just threw out the idea that people shouldn't instantly jump to the conclusion that he is number 1. We could end up finding hard evidence as meta developes, who knows! Not trying to prove he isn't; he very well could be

 

[Tomaster]

Yall obviously aren't skilled Roys if you have trouble with faux.

 

[Avro-Arrow]

I can't count the number of times someone has come into this thread or told me in person that "Fox isn't the best character" without putting forth an alternative and/or explaining why.

@MTLKyle anyone?

 

[MTL Kyle]

@MTLKyle anyone?

He is not the best, period.
Anyone who think Fox is the best in this game didn't play other Smash games competitively.

The arguments of why he is not the best are plastered anywhere in this forum, but it doesn't matter me argue and tell why ROB or Ike are better if you guys don't wanna progress the discussion.

So yeah, Fox is the best XD XD XD

I can't count the number of times someone has come into this thread or told me in person that "Fox isn't the best character" without putting forth an alternative and/or explaining why.

Explain me why Fox is the best and why as the lead designer of the game or whatever you were, you were not competent enough in finding any nerfs that didn't destroy the core of his original gameplay.

 

[Ya Boy GP]

Samus: In Melee it used to be even, but as the metagame developed I thought the general consensus was that Fox slightly won (55/45 or so)? I play Melee and have a region filled with Samus' so it's one of my best MUs. Basically in Melee Fox can laser/platform camp and force Samus to approach, then counterhit her approach and win through rinse and repeating. All the Samus players (Knut, Minty, Boiko, Bubbaking) in my region say it's slightly in Foxes favor, and I agree. I play this MU extensively and have a good idea of how it plays out.

In PM though? Yeah Samus got some buffs, but she also got some critical nerfs concerning the Fox MU in particular. I play Boikos Samus so I have a decent amount of experience playing the PM matchup as well.

The ice mode buff in general is more or less useless against Fox because he's a fast faller/heavy so it doesn't kill any earlier than fire mode, and ice mode fair/dtilt just lessen the combo potential. Her boost ball is her main buff for the MU. Having boost ball makes it so she can avoid lasers pretty well, but at the same time she mitigates her mobility so it's easier for Fox to predict what Samus is going to do next. I'd call it a slight buff overall because it makes lasers easier to deal with, which is the main issue in the MU to begin with.

Fox also has new ways of dealing with Samus. In Melee, if Fox got a grab he had to uthrow and then shark uairs, try to stuff any options coming down with things like utilt, or just take positional advantage and force her to ledge. Now, Fox has a dthrow that's usable. Fox can dthrow tech chase regrab/usmash Samus at ANY percent. This goes for most characters you can't uthrow uair like Wario, Zelda, ROB, etc. in the game. The difference in PM physics means there's no shifted momentum when teching in directions so you can't hold a direction and tech that way to go flying in a specific direction like you could in Melee. THIS IS A HUGE BUFF FOR FOX. Fox can literally dthrow tech chase Samus until she's forced off stage like Sheik can do to Fox, except it's even easier because Fox is faster LMAOO.
Also, Samus has a super nerfed tether from Melee, which makes edgeguarding Samus in PM MADD easy. You just laser Samus as she's doing her down-b to get horizontal distance, then maybe go out for a shine to put her lower, and if she's below the stage you just wait for her to tether and punish it, and if she doesn't you can react to up-b by just shine bairing her and just rinse & repeat until she can't hit ledge anymore. After using her tether once, Samus can airdodge and tether to go really high (higher than her up-b) as a form of recovery, but she's in free fall without a hitbox going up so you can just react to it and punish that too.

Overall, I think the MU in PM is 55/45 for Fox because while she does have a way to get around lasers, she gets combo'd harder and edgeguarded harder than she did in Melee. I could see this becoming either easier or harder depending on how the metagame develops in the future.

This matchup is not just a repeat of a Melee matchup, it's very different in PM and very prone to changing as the metagame develops, so take my 55/45 with a grain of salt.

Edit: Something to note. Samus is way better in PM if she forces you to shield. If Samus comes off the platform and missiles and you shield it,she has a crazy mixup. She has the option to run at you and grab, run at your and fsmash/jab/ftilt, run past you and pivot grab, or run past you and crouch -> turnaround fsmash/jab/ftilt which is SUPER godlike.

If Samus had a way to consistently get Fox in shield I would think she wins the matchup, but with Fox having good mobility, quick aerials like nair to beat missile, and shine, Fox still wins the neutral in my opinion.

 

[Tomaster]

He is not the best, period.

Well that settles it then.. What should we discuss next?

 

[Strong Badam]

The best one is "Fox may have losing MU's, he can't be #1"

"Fox may have losing MUs, and I won't state any of the ones I think he might could lose."

 

[Frost | Odds]

Almost as much fun is "Bowser might have some winning matchups! There's no way he could be in last place!"

 

[Cox Box]

"Fox may have losing MUs, and I won't state any of the ones I think he might could lose."

I personally think Fox loses to Ike, but I haven't seen the matchup at a high level with Fox winning. Ike has QD movement options to play around fox's dash dance, and has the world's easiest time edge guarding space animals with Fair's giant hitbox. Also, Ike has grab combos for days. Ike doesn't do well against shield pressure, but he has enough movement options to avoid getting put in that situation.

So there's my intermediate level analysis on why Ike beats Fox on a character level. It's important to keep in mind that Ike is far from being optimized and has crazy good tools, while Fox is much closer to that front. Feel free to tell me why I'm wrong, it makes for good discussion.

I also have suspicions that MK, DDD, Rob, and Marth beat Fox in PM, but I don't know enough about those characters to say that with any amount of confidence.

Edit: And for the record, I just said there's no way Fox has zero losing matchups in PM. He may still be #1, but he probably doesn't beat all 40 other characters in terms of matchup stats.

 

[DMG]

D3 doesn't exist anymore, DF doesn't think ROB is space slayer in 3.6 iirc, Ike suks

MK + Marth possible

 

[Bazkip]

So he may or may not be the best...?

Schrödinger's Fox

 

[jtm94]

Marth will continue to lose on every stage but FD, but the difference is that you can't guarantee that you get FD in a set.

What's so bad about ROB vs spacies? I struggle vs him as Wolf because his CC is commendable, but I will say I think it's very doable for both sides.

Oh I forgot to comment on it, but someone said they didn't think Wolf could be better than Fox and that they weren't comparable. I will say that I think fox is more stable through his MUs where Wolf could potentially be more volatile. The characters Fox bodybags, Wolf bodybags harder. I mean we can talk about how there isn't true Wolf SDI/DI counterplay yet so maybe he won't ever reach his projected strength, but what came first the chicken or the egg? Wolf needs to be good first before there's counterplay. TL;DR if Fox can combo a character, Wolf can combo them harder.

Also I like Wolf vs Marth because of laser. You just get to take so much space from him and if he isn't powershielding the lasers you get to grab/pressure him for free.

 

[Saproling]

Almost as much fun is "Bowser might have some winning matchups! There's no way he could be in last place!"

You right Yoshis worse.

 

[DMG]

What happened to "Yoshi is sleeper OP" in PM

He legit went from like 5th place to last on people's lists

 

[Life]

Yoshi, a character very few people were playing, got nerfed to the ground to compensate for the removal of a weakness nobody was abusing and could be played around anyway (i.e. footstool eating Yoshi's DJ).

Like I talk about being salty about the Pit nerfs but I can only imagine how the Yoshis feel. All three of them anyway.

 

[Ripple]

Now, Fox has a dthrow that's usable. Fox can dthrow tech chase regrab/usmash Samus at ANY percent. This goes for most characters you can't uthrow uair like Wario, Zelda, ROB, etc. in the game. The difference in PM physics means there's no shifted momentum when teching in directions so you can't hold a direction and tech that way to go flying in a specific direction like you could in Melee. THIS IS A HUGE BUFF FOR FOX. Fox can literally dthrow tech chase Samus until she's forced off stage like Sheik can do to Fox, except it's even easier because Fox is faster LMAOO.

you were saying?

 

[_Chrome]

But Yoshi beats Bowser. Get rekt.