Tier List Speculation

[DMG]

You just stated it. Zelda discussion over

 

[SwordsRbroken]

You just stated it. Zelda discussion over

k

let's talk about how low tier marth is then

 

[Strong Badam]

So what's the general consensus on Zelda, besides the fact that she's annoying as hell to fight with certain characters?

I personally think she's a fairly mediocre character in context of PM's balance, but not unviable by any means. She's got a lot of tools to work with, but her biggest weaknesses remain. She dies early and her lack of mobility is tough to overcome against most of the better characters.

 

[Deleted member]

zelda is pretty simple tbh. she camps you, and you have to camp her. a breach of contract on either side is basically a loss.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

zelda is pretty simple tbh. she camps you, and you have to camp her. a breach of contract on either side is basically a loss.

I hear that that's the gameplan in any match involving Ivysaur, too.

 

[ELI-mination]

Ivy is wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy better at camping though.

 

[jayeldeee]

Ivy is wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy better at camping though.

Just don't let the campfire touch him or he'll erupt.

 

[Vashimus]

Ivy needs her old Razor Leaf back, because it's too damn slow for it to work as a full screen projectile. I can understand if they wanted to make it less spammy, but the problem with the current fix is that you have no real way of knowing if it's OK to throw another leaf since you can't see if the first leaf is still on stage or not once it passes the screen outside your field of vision. And since it adheres to the "only one leaf on stage at a time" rule, you just end up guessing a lot and throwing blanks.

 

[jayeldeee]

I guess you have to approach with a more tactical approach. I'm sure a lot of Ivy players don't like this at all, but I can guarantee there's an approach to it to make it a more spontaneous move (to the opponent I mean) than anything. That's how I'd use it anyways since it's not really the best projectile ever. It could make for somewhat decent surprises and possible setbacks.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

The leaf is out for 120 frames; surely you can get used to counting to 2. Snake players count for grenades; it's not all that strange.

It's not supposed to be for dealing damage; it is almost entirely for controlling space and discouraging opponents' dashdance camping.

 

[Strong Badam]

Ivy needs her old Razor Leaf back, because it's too damn slow for it to work as a full screen projectile. I can understand if they wanted to make it less spammy, but the problem with the current fix is that you have no real way of knowing if it's OK to throw another leaf since you can't see if the first leaf is still on stage or not once it passes the screen outside your field of vision. And since it adheres to the "only one leaf on stage at a time" rule, you just end up guessing a lot and throwing blanks.

Yeah, it'd be awful if people had to learn how to play a character.

 

[| Kailex |]

Hate that leaf, unless im the person spawning it then its fine; same goes for everyone else

 

[jayeldeee]

Like I'm saying, spontaneity and randomness can work. At least until your opponent understands what you're doing. Then you'll actually have to devise a REAL strategy for once.

 

[Vashimus]

Leave it to Butch and Cassidy to say my Pokemon training skills suck.

 

[jayeldeee]

Leave it to Butch and Cassidy to say my Pokemon training skills suck.

LOL, I noticed the Team Rocket thing too.

 

[Strong Badam]

Leave it to Butch and Cassidy to say my Pokemon training skills suck.

I didn't even realize this... lmao.
Team Rocket OP

 

[Scythe]

yo metaknight's moves are pretty good

 

[theindievisual]

zelda wins every game at my house
granted we're a bunch of noobs but still
all her moves stay out too long, i think she's too strong at a noob level (neutralB usmash spam is ridiculous for its ease)

 

[Kink-Link5]

yo metaknight's moves are pretty good

Metaknight's moves are so good that even when he's using a notmove he's creating pressure lol

For example, walk up and notf-tilt

Jump and notaerial

Run past and notgrab

 

[KayB]

zelda wins every game at my house
granted we're a bunch of noobs but still
all her moves stay out too long, i think she's too strong at a noob level (neutralB usmash spam is ridiculous for its ease)

Good thing Tier Lists are noob level allergic then.

 

[jayeldeee]

yo metaknight's moves are pretty good

Ay Scythe, have you ever really, met a knight?

zelda wins every game at my house
granted we're a bunch of noobs but still
all her moves stay out too long, i think she's too strong at a noob level (neutralB usmash spam is ridiculous for its ease)

And Zelda (unless you're Cosmo) is not the best to use, even at a noob level. You'd expect she'd be even harder to use and cause more losses overall. I want to see videos of this.

 

[Beautiful Death]

well Zelda is strong at lower levels isn't she I mean in Brawl's first tier list she was mid tier so yeah.

 

[KayB]

well Zelda is strong at lower levels isn't she I mean in Brawl's first tier list she was mid tier so yeah.

...You can't use the first tier list of a game to make a conclusion of a mod thats designed to have completely different mechanics.

 

[Minor Pandemic]

I think his point is that Zelda excels at beating players with low skill level/players who are new to the game. Bad players tend to: approach linearly and predictably, recover linearly, not space properly. A bad player playing Zelda tends to: spam Upsmash when someone is above them, spam fsmash when someone runs at them, use neutralB when scared, throw tons of sideB when the opponent isn't near them.

What you end up with, in the realm of bad/new players, is Zelda standing around mindlessly stuffing bad approaches and spacing, then spamming projectiles until their opponent approaches again. This is the reason that many newer players tend to think Zelda is very strong.

 

[Archangel]

I think his point is that Zelda excels at beating players with low skill level/players who are new to the game. Bad players tend to: approach linearly and predictably, recover linearly, not space properly. A bad player playing Zelda tends to: spam Upsmash when someone is above them, spam fsmash when someone runs at them, use neutralB when scared, throw tons of sideB when the opponent isn't near them.

What you end up with, in the realm of bad/new players, is Zelda standing around mindlessly stuffing bad approaches and spacing, then spamming projectiles until their opponent approaches again. This is the reason that many newer players tend to think Zelda is very strong.

The problem with Zelda's design is it still feels more like Project B and less like Project M. Playing for the time-out is a rarity in Melee. It's nearly impossible in Most MU and that game isn't 1/2 as balanced as PM is so far in terms of the overall viability of the characters.

 

[Kink-Link5]

Again playing for the timeout really isn't what makes zelda such a chore. Plenty of characters besides her stretch the timer. There's a good reason why the timer was made to be 8 minutes in the first place, and its because not all matches are Falcon dittos. Zelda's gameplay is what makes her wholly unappealing, whether it lasted 2 minutes of getting U-smash juggled to 7 minutes getting pushed out.

 

[Minor Pandemic]

The problem with Zelda's design is it still feels more like Project B and less like Project M. Playing for the time-out is a rarity in Melee. It's nearly impossible in Most MU and that game isn't 1/2 as balanced as PM is so far in terms of the overall viability of the characters.

I didn't mean to be arguing for or against Zelda's design and I'm sorry if I came off that way. I was only trying to articulate why Zelda seems so good to new or bad players. I agree with you

 

[JTsm]

Just a list made in 10 minutes without too much thought
#getsderailedanyways

Gay
Fox
Falco
Sheik
Marth


Gay enough

Peach
Ike
Mario
Lucario
Diddy
Pit
Wolf
Snake
Wario

Bicurious

Lucas
Zero SuitSamus
Link
R.O.B.
Ness
Ganondorf
Sonic
DonkeyKong
Falcon

You straight dawg
Jigglypuff
Ivysaur
Bowser
DonkeyKong
Pikachu
Squirtle
Luigi
Game and Watch
DeDeDe
Charizard
Zelda
Toon Link

 

[Strong Badam]

I don't see how that was supposed to be funny.

 

[The_NZA]

I don't see how that was supposed to be funny.

Homophobia in this community is dumb as **** as it is.

 

[Scythe]

how is that post homophobic? From what I see being gay is the best

 

[The_NZA]

whether it is being used as a relative positive or negative is questionable. The fact is, it is harkening to a literal or ironic take on the idea that "gay" inherently means something other than "having the same sexual/romantic preference". Anyone trying to push the idea that gay means anything other than 1. a dude into a dude, 2. a chick into a chick, 3. elation is playing into the problem.

 

[Oniperson]

Yeah, I'm gonna have to say that it was straight hilarious. Keep it up JTsm. You're way with words will be unrivaled

 

[Plum]

@ zelda talk:
I don't know what you guys are talking about. Zelda is fantastic. Her Down B is one of the best moves in the entire game by far.

 

[Oro?!]

whether it is being used as a relative positive or negative is questionable. The fact is, it is harkening to a literal or ironic take on the idea that "gay" inherently means something other than "having the same sexual/romantic preference". Anyone trying to push the idea that gay means anything other than 1. a dude into a dude, 2. a chick into a chick, 3. elation is playing into the problem.

Chill out. Gay has meant happiness way longer than it has had any relevance to sexual orientation. People nitpicking words and trying to be offended by everything are way worse than any harm words could cause.

 

[SpiderMad]

Its still insulting to happy people

 

[The_NZA]

Chill out. Gay has meant happiness way longer than it has had any relevance to sexual orientation. People nitpicking words and trying to be offended by everything are way worse than any harm words could cause.

I have a hard time believing people who are gay and who hate it when people use gay to mean stupid would agree with your ridiculous statement that obviously reeks of hetero-privilege. It's not about being sensitive: its about being mature and providing a common courtesy not to turn a word that people ascribe to their identities as inherently good or bad.

And SpiderMad, your cute verbal acrobatics doesn't make the point any less valid. Fact: Gay means happy. Fact: Gay means homosexual.
You can actively try and be a part of a culture that makes Gay mean bad/stupid/dumb, but why would you want to be? And if you are a part of it, then you are partaking in inventing a world that makes Gay people feel alienated. That is definitionally homophobic, so don't treat me like I'm the bad guy when people in this topic (and community) would like to persist in transforming gay to mean dumb/stupid.

 

[Oniperson]

Can we quit arguing semantics and talk about how good certain characters would do in relation to each other in a tournament setting? Please?

 

[Wiisnake]

I do hope Ness and Luigi can get out of such a lower spot.

 

[Kink-Link5]

Can we quit arguing semantics and talk about how good certain characters would do in relation to each other in a tournament setting? Please?

Characters do as well as the person playing as them in a tournament setting. Tournament results and expectations shouldn't have weight on placement, else Fox and Bowser would look far and away unbeatable.

We can sort of look at Melee results NOW, this many years down the line, only to reenforce the claim that the characters are viable or not, but it's obvious at a GLANCE, that characters like Roy are far less usable than, say, Sheik. Melee has been around long enough to be able to say what does and doesn't work, and the tournament results reflect the things that work, not the other way around.

It's much more productive to talk about how well certain characters do in relation to each other in those matchups as well as compared to the rest of the cast in those matchups.

Like how Toon Link does well in matchups that other characters also do well in, but does poorly in other matchups; a fault others don't have. Oh, he beats Jigglypuff and Peach? BRB killing with DK at 60 off a grab.