Tier list of mario's moves

[Omari]

You guys serious?

Spoiler

If so, let's go more in depth...thanks. I'll participate.

 

[Matador]

You guys serious?

Spoiler

If so, let's go more in depth...thanks. I'll participate.

You can be really, really condescending, whether purposely or not. It's kinda annoying to be perfectly honest.

Just saying.

 

[Omari]

@Matador: May you explain this term in your own words (I'm having trouble understanding)? No sarcasm intended. Annoying? That's your opinion but I'll empathize, thanks.

 

[Kanzaki]

Omari - Matador's on his iPad.. and I'm on my phone most of the time. Therefore your blackened out tags, we can't really see them. So he most likely only see, as did I earliar, "You guys serious?". Can sense a bit of sarcasm in that if you can't see the rest.

But while on the subject, the overly use of blackening stuff out, and bold/italicize is quite annoying.

 

[Matador]

The annoying is just a bit of my personal opinion, and it's not related to the bolding or italicizing or anything. Not that it matters much if it is.

By condescending, I mean you speak as if you're coming from a space of superiority when addressing some things, usually discussions n such. I mean, I bump this thread, try to spark a lil discussion in our desolate Mario boards, and your first comment is "you guys serious?" which is clearly sarcastic and suggests that you think that it's ridiculous.

I know you're a cool dude, and probably don't purposely mean to step on toes or w/e, but this is the way it comes off to me.

But whatever, just keeping it 100.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Back on topic, D-smash is overused and Mario mains should generally speaking use it less in favor of safer options. Especially given that these days it's becoming more and more important to save it for kills in matchups where we end up juggling with U-smash a lot. If you end up using BOTH U-smash and D-smash, make sure you at least save B-throw. Between U-smash, D-smash, and B-throw, as long as you keep one of them fresh, it shouldn't be hard to get the kills you need.

Dash attack is underused. U-air isn't underused, but slightly misunderstood since it seems not many here understand how to implement it buffered and out of shield. F-tilt is always underused by everyone. Throws are also somewhat misunderstood by most Mario users.

 

[Omari]

My fault Mario boards. People IRL may get the impression that I'm cocky although I'm not sure why.

Didn't know you guys couldn't see spoilers so I'll stop (reasonable). Yes, "You guys serious"? in it's own sounds like I'm being sarcastic in the sense of "Are you really bringing this topic back up"? so thanks for letting me know.

Never went on SWF with a mobile device so I didn't know. The bold/italic/underline helps me emphasize my key points (in detail).

Reason: Usually, I'm reviewing/revising my work when finished & it's troublesome when I'm not sure of a specific part of a text someone else wrote. My text may be complex to read to several but I'm pretty sure the majority understands (knows) it first or second time around.

I'm above no one (fact), no one's perfect (fact excluding CPUs, how it reads inputs discourages me, it's ********...I'm talking versus-wise) nor is anyone the best/worst (opinion). At the end of the day when it's all said & done...we're all the same (aside from our two layers of skin that will differ).

@A2ZOMG: It'd be more helpful (to understand "why" instead of "what") if you gave examples regarding options. Terms like "should" are an opinion. They're not always true which is my point. You're looking for an ideal (perfect in every way or sense) Mario which I'm afraid there isn't (I used to & in a way still like this...think of it as OCD with video games...this continued until I came to the realization that no matter how I desire to play the game, I won't win unless I do what it takes at all/any costs). Now, I'm aiming to make my execution in all areas as effective (just enough) as possible but not perfect. When I see a certain approach isn't working, I switch to another (can be applied IRL) to get different (better) results (think of weight training for example). Maybe several members don't understand what (mainly "why") you mean by QDA being underused & u-air being overused. Not a demand, simply a suggestion.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Juggling with U-smash is generally better than juggling with D-smash because you can charge U-smash more easily for extra damage, and it frametraps landings more easily. Spacing with Jabs and F-tilt is better than spacing with D-smash most of the time due to being safer on block and spotdodge, and Jabs can lead to Jab cancel combos. Also spacing a charged F-smash is often more effective than D-smash if the opponent blocks.

D-smash can kinda help cover people who roll behind you, though you can often cover this more reliably by being in the habit of spacing aerials really well. All in all you really just shouldn't be using D-smash unless your opponent makes a mistake that leaves them really obviously open or unless you're replacing U-smash for a kill.

Dash attack is underused since it's by far the easiest move to use to frametrap a landing, and also potentially very rewarding since it starts combos at high percents. You can also use this on a read spotdodge for similar results. DA oos is also an okay punish option in some situations due to the range.

U-air needs to be implemented buffered and out of shield. Once you learn to do it consistently, it really expands your pressure and defense options.

 

[mars16]

Down smash Juggles?...
________________________

I like every ones opinions!


Top--
Fireball- good use for aproach
Bair
Utilt-good Lead into Uair....
Jab
nair

High---
Cape
Usmash
Uair
Ftilt - a decent follow up after bair
Dsmash
Fsmash


Mid----
Dthrow- good combo starter
Dair
Bthrow
UpB- break out jabs, and to enterupt.......... stuff
F throw - to get enemy off stage
Fair- I like this move..... Jab Lock

Low-----
FLUDD
Uthrow
Dtilt - Jab cancel, Dtilt, Fsmash

 

[A2ZOMG]

Metaknight players will bait airdodges to juggle with their D-smash. Mario can do the same thing pretty easily too for the most part. You should generally save that for kills if possible though. For damage dealing, charging U-smash and hitting with the late hitbox of Dash attack are preferable due to being more reliable.

 

[fromundaman]

Metaknight players will bait airdodges to juggle with their D-smash. Mario can do the same thing pretty easily too for the most part. You should generally save that for kills if possible though. For damage dealing, charging U-smash and hitting with the late hitbox of Dash attack are preferable due to being more reliable.

Personally, I do the very opposite. Dsmash kills really late, much moreso than Usmash, and does decent damage. I'd rather use that to rack damage and save Usmash for kills (OoS and AD baiting are the ways I get them the most.).

 

[A2ZOMG]

It's matchup dependent to an extent, also dependent on how your opponent adapts. Generally speaking though D-smash doesn't really have a place in Mario's movepool when the opponent is playing mostly safely, unless you get a lot of Jab cancels. Mario usually has better and safer oos options and AD baits are not something to abuse.

Especially at low percents, it's not really a great idea to D-smash unless it's for finishing a U-air juggle combo for maximum damage. At any rate when you end up using either U-smash or D-smash in a followup, you should make a point of saving the other for kills, though if you only use those moves to simply get your opponent to about 50-60%, those moves should likely become unstaled if you save them from that point to your opponent's KO percent.

 

[Payne]

I feel like a noob for asking this but i don't understand how you guys are listing the attacks,what does tier show.?

 

[A2ZOMG]

Generally speaking the moves that get listed higher are more useful.

 

[Payne]

Oh i see then this list is correct! But then i don't see how Mario himself is low tier.

 

[A2ZOMG]

This has nothing to do with how good or bad Mario is. This is a discussion about what moves Mario users should be using to be most effective.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Top:
Fireball
Jab
B-air
F-tilt
U-air

High:
U-smash
D-air
D-throw
F-throw

Mid:
Up-B
Cape
N-air
F-smash
U-throw
Dash Attack
B-throw
U-tilt

Low:
D-smash
F-air
D-tilt
FLUDD

I'd put Nair in High and utilt higher [around fsmash]. Utilt is pretty underrated imo.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Why N-air? N-air is only good in edgeguards and occasionally catching a spotdodge or mashing out of bad strings. Then I guess the Olimar matchup. I mean those are useful things, but onstage it's not that great. In almost every situation onstage where N-air might be useful, U-air is generally superior due to being much safer.

U-tilt maybe. It's not used enough as an anti-air or as a quick option out of D-throw mainly, but outside of that it's reeeeealy hard to apply in Mario's game without landing U-air at low percents.

 

[JuxtaposeX]

Top:
Fireball
B-air
Jab
U-air

High:
D-air
U-smash
D-throw
Cape

Mid:
N-air
D-smash
F-tilt
F-smash
B-throw
U-tilt
Up-B
FLUDD


Low:
U-throw
F-throw
F-air
D-tilt
Dash Attack


That's my list, I'm surprised that a lot of you put FLUDD that low. It's a pretty good move. F and U throw just suck imo. F-throw is only used by me to get them offstage, and upthrow I only used it in brawl- because it kills at like 60%. I use to use u-tilt alot, but due to it's severe lack of range and my significantly improved spacing, I never really use it anymore except at very low % after an aerial, or at very high % for an emergency kill move.

 

[A2ZOMG]

FLUDD is only good in like 2 matchups or so, and most of the time it's not even guaranteed to do anything partly because it doesn't do damage.

wtf F-throw is amazing. 9% is average, but it's Mario's fastest ending throw, and you can follow it up with fireballs surprisingly well. F-throw is especially good against the Ice Climbers where it's the best throw for separating them. Against a wall at 0, you can also use F-throw to start combos, or against Fox, F-throw -> reverse F-smash legit combos him.

U-throw is kinda matchup specific but it ***** Marth and space animals at 0, and you might as well use it when it will put them on a platform. You probably should be using this throw along with F-throw for building damage anyway when you have nothing better to do out of grab. B-throw should be saved for kills, and D-throw becomes kinda meh past 70%.

And Dash Attack is secretly amazing and Mario players need to learn. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UETCTAGaThg&feature=player_detailpage#t=238s

D-smash is hugely overrated and should be used sparingly, except in matchups where it's easy to Jab cancel into. You have safer "get off me" options otherwise. F-tilt specifically is almost always better than D-smash except in blatant punish situations. Almost 90% of the D-smashes I see from most Mario users are a result of bad habits, and I will admit myself I am guilty of that in some of my matches as well. Use this move less. In a lot of matchups you want to save this for kills anyway.

 

[Matador]

Why N-air? N-air is only good in edgeguards and occasionally catching a spotdodge or mashing out of bad strings. Then I guess the Olimar matchup. I mean those are useful things, but onstage it's not that great. In almost every situation onstage where N-air might be useful, U-air is generally superior due to being much safer.

U-tilt maybe. It's not used enough as an anti-air or as a quick option out of D-throw mainly, but outside of that it's reeeeealy hard to apply in Mario's game without landing U-air at low percents.

I agree with Gheb regarding both attacks...being one of the game's fastest aerials and one of its only sex kicks, I'd say nair's pretty useful. Good combo-breaker, weak hit combos into jab, powerful OOS option, and can even be used to approach in some match-ups (Mario, MK, Luigi...) Monk also felt that Nair was a weak aerial...I've never understood this...

And like you mentioned, Utilt is a phenomenal anti-air option. Quick, enough range to contend with just about any dair/nair from above, moderately low ending lag, and kills lightweights like Fox around 145%. I personally just spam it when I know it'll kill because of how quick it is....it'll trade with anything from Fox outside a well-timed jab.

And it keeps combos going/starts combos at low percentages. Awesome move, imo.

 

[mars16]

usually use Nair to lead to jab or to try and get a Jab lock going

 

[A2ZOMG]

I agree with Gheb regarding both attacks...being one of the game's fastest aerials and one of its only sex kicks, I'd say nair's pretty useful. Good combo-breaker, weak hit combos into jab, powerful OOS option, and can even be used to approach in some match-ups (Mario, MK, Luigi...) Monk also felt that Nair was a weak aerial...I've never understood this...

And like you mentioned, Utilt is a phenomenal anti-air option. Quick, enough range to contend with just about any dair/nair from above, moderately low ending lag, and kills lightweights like Fox around 145%. I personally just spam it when I know it'll kill because of how quick it is....it'll trade with anything from Fox outside a well-timed jab.

And it keeps combos going/starts combos at low percentages. Awesome move, imo.

N-air I definitely hesitate to rank above the moves that I put above it. When you consider how much utility the other moves above it have, N-air just kinda pales. The damage on it is low, its setups are often really percent and spacing situational, and while it's an okay out of shield option, U-air is just superior on way too many levels to the point that in most of my games, N-airing oos is a technical error for me. A lot of what N-air is for isn't very safe most of the time, and the damage on it is low. It is great in edgeguards though, and it's something that should be abused more in that situation, though even there, U-air still has advantages over it in that department

U-tilt might deserve to be ranked higher, though I definitely feel that Dash Attack is a better move than it. Neither move is really safe to throw out, but Dash Attack's combo utility works from a significantly broader range, and is very easy to set up from a generic juggle and especially powerful when paired with good conditioning skills.

I'm honestly shocked that in EVERY video I've seen of Mario vs Donkey Kong that I don't see anyone using Dash Attack against him. It's such an easy move to use to trap his airdodge, and it combos into a free regrab or at high percents into Smashes.

 

[cheezetime]

I agree with A2ZOMG. U-tilt is high maybe even top tier on this list.

 

[Sleek Media]

Hey, you know FLUDD doesn't do any damage, right?

 

[Coolwhip]

Nair should be top tier imo.

 

[Supreme Dirt]

Hey, you know FLUDD doesn't do any damage, right?

Everything isn't about damage.
FLUDD is amazing.
Single best thing to do on a shield break to start with.


Also I personally think the Cape should be high or at least top tier.

 

[fromundaman]

Ummmm... How often do you get shield breaks with Mario? If more than once in a blue moon, please plug your opponent's controller back in.

 

[Jimmyfosho]

I don't think I've ever broken a single shield with Mario yet.

 

[SKidd]

I've never broken anyone's shield with Mario.




Cape isn't that good. Only in random situations is it good.
... Well, for me, at least. =[

 

[Omari]

k, les do this.

Jabs:
Top: Jab
High: Triple Jab
Mid: double jab
Jab Cancel (borderline)
Low: N/A

Tilts:
Top: Walk (yo, I'm serious...)
High: f-tilt
Mid: u-tilt
Low: d-tilt

Smashes:
Top: N/A
Borderline: u-smash
High: N/A
Mid: f-smash
Low: d-smash

Airs:
Top: B-air, u-air
High: d-air
Mid: n-air
Low: f-air

Throws:
Top: d-throw
High: f-throw
Mid: b-throw
Borderline: u-throw
Low: N/A

Specials:
Top: Fireball
High: Cape
Mid: SJP
Borderline: F.L.U.D.D (borderline/F.L.U.D.D. isn't as useless as it may seem)
Low:N/A

*Everyone's entitled to their own opinion, feel free to ask "why" about a particular move & I'll gladly explain in detail.*

 

[Matador]

I like your format...it seems a lot more suitable for this type of tier list.

My only questions are Dsmash and walk. Why's Dsmash low and do you mean Mario's walk specifically or walking in general?

 

[Juushichi]

When I think about it, it does seem like dsmash is a bit overrated. The way that I see it, a lot of the people I see use it (which is ironically a lot of lower level Mario's) is kinda like a panic or overall gtfo move and short of at high % and offstage... we don't really want that.

Giving someone a free reset at low, mid prevents just seems silly. I mean, its ****ing hard getting in on some characters from the front and dsmash knocks them far enough away that you waste momentum chasing them.

This is all IMO though.

 

[Matador]

It's not AMAZING like we once thought, but it has its uses.

Primarily, it's still a punisher. Punishes rolls, spotdodges, bad spacing...all that stuff...and it's good at it because of the speed/dmg.

Can't forget that it puts opponents offstage and over your head with good DI.

It's a legitimate threat to lighter characters too. Jiggz, Peach, Sheik, Fox...they all die reasonably early to it with good DI.

I dunno, overall it seems too fast to be a bad attack.

 

[Juushichi]

I can agree with that. I think most of Mario's smashes are punishers honestly, but using dsmash on both lighter characters and fastfallers seem to be very useful.

I like to use dsmash on Fox, Sheik, DK, Wolf, DDD and the like.

 

[Omari]

I like your format...it seems a lot more suitable for this type of tier list.

My only questions are Dsmash and walk. Why's Dsmash low and do you mean Mario's walk specifically or walking in general?

Thanks Matador,

Mario's d-smash:
1. Linear (only covers front/back) whereas u-smash proves to be superior (excluding damage only) in most situations (u-smash travels in an arc motion thus becoming more useful)

2. hit boxes make no sense (whiffs when inside opponents) *I find this smash to be useless when jab locking. During a tournament I remember seeing ANTi tilt locking>force stand-up>walk up to his opponent (literally inside) & d-smashed (covering timing which was brilliant)

3. Worst smash (my opinion) for killing

4. Second hit not safe on block

5. First hit not safe on stage (excluding near/at ledges where smashes generally become much more safer due to shield stun/guard stun/knock-back etc...)

6. Not suitable for following after airs (@mid percent (40% for example) b-air>ssfs straight (covers spacing complete, you actually have the option of shutter stepping/angling for additional space/damage/positioning whereas with d-smash whiffs depending on how your opponent was hit & their DI+SDI) f-smash (especially u-smash) proves to be more flexible


Mario's walking: Honestly, I mean walking in general/regarding Mario.
1. Bad enough tripping is enable in brawl

2. Running limits your options (ask yourself, "what can I do while walking that I now can't while running"? & then ask yourself, "how many effective options does Mario actually have while....

running (how can I stop my run? how badly do I limit myself on platforms? Am I at least covered by a projectile when approaching while running?)/

shielding (smashers should (my opinion) learn to drop shield to OoS as well (example: f-tilt's range compared to the rest of Mario's standing moves))/

jumping (b-air (high angled spacing), u-air (cross-ups), d-air (eating shields) & maybe n-air (applying pressure/edge guarding/gimping) "?) Limited, there's a time for running (usually to close the distance (maintain pressure generally speaking) & there's times where walking is superior

3. jab/tilts (especially f-tilt since you can pretty much buffer anything (jab, smash (including ssfs), dash, jump, special, etc..) out of it lol) alone allows us much more useful setups

4. Low tiers need as much help as they can get (& it's my goal to break them/place better tourneys..)


*IMO, cape deserves to be higher (borderline at least) on our tier list (borderline between Top/high).

Cape covers energy/physical=godlike (at times where our physical attacks won't beat/or at least trade in our favor cape handles exceptionally well)

Example: Ness's f-air v Mario's cape (spaced): Since Mario isn't actually using his limbs, he technically isn't putting himself at risk whereas b-air is..)

*Most effect version of jump cape used imo is by caping@apex of short hop

 

[SKidd]

Cape is good for stalling in the air.
You're in the air, fastfall, cape, they usmash or try to do something else, you punish.
For me, at least.

I think all moves are useful in different scenarios. Except for dtilt. Dtilt better get replaced in Smash 4 <____<

 

[Omari]

Cape is good for stalling in the air.
You're in the air, fastfall, cape, they usmash or try to do something else, you punish.
For me, at least.

I think all moves are useful in different scenarios. Except for dtilt. Dtilt better get replaced in Smash 4 <____<

Cape=momentum tool

(Generally, it's not a good idea to cape arc based (usually u-smash) smashes-you may have meant something different though)

Granted, every move has use(s). When there's another move that covers the same options+more in similar scenarios, the previous move used becomes less useful.

 

[JuxtaposeX]

cept dtilt.
Dtilt has no uses.

 

[Omari]

D-tilt's uses:
1. shield poke (although f-tilt down (especially with a fire ball) proves to be better due to frame data)

2. keeps enemy airborne while at ledge (good for racking damage)

3. position opponent above you (generally in your favor) at high percents for following up whereas u-tilt may knock your opponent too high

4. RCO lag (creating possible setups/frame traps that otherwise wouldn't be) - mainly when your opponent uses their recovery (character/special dependent) to the ledge (which you should (my opinion) keep track of)

Spoiler

*Jab works better though, shhh

It honestly depends on the situation though...most (not all) of the time, there are better options than d-tilt.