C~Dog
Smash Champion
Why do people love FD so much?
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Thriller Brawl Ruleset Discussion
- Thread starter Shaya
- Start date
- Status
It's got nothing to do with love or hate. It's the fact that it should be a starter stage not a counterpick.
I hate Yoshi's island but even if that was a Counterpick i would be arguing that it shouldn't be as it's a starter.
I hate Yoshi's island but even if that was a Counterpick i would be arguing that it shouldn't be as it's a starter.
swordsaint
Smash Master
Final destination has proved successful as a counterpick. I agree with that move now, despite being unsure of it at first.
Starter Stages are a matter of finding balance.
The starter list is created for balancing the first stage of a set, not to have a match that has the least amount interference or whatever.
Final Destination IS a STARTER STAGE.
But is considered not a fair choice in a starter list of only 5 stages.
The starter list is created for balancing the first stage of a set, not to have a match that has the least amount interference or whatever.
Final Destination IS a STARTER STAGE.
But is considered not a fair choice in a starter list of only 5 stages.
luke_atyeo
Smash Hero
- Joined
- May 10, 2008
- Messages
- 7,215
wow, all I heard these last few pages were 'WHAAAA WHAAA SOMEBODY CALL THE WHAAAAMBULANCE!'
also shaya I've cp'd lylat like twice in my whole life, my cp list is way different from that.
just leave it how it is shaya, I know you'll only change it if someone goes to hell and back to prove you wrong, and no matter what SOMEBODY is going to find something to cry about.
also shaya I've cp'd lylat like twice in my whole life, my cp list is way different from that.
no thanks buddy
lolololololol
just leave it how it is shaya, I know you'll only change it if someone goes to hell and back to prove you wrong, and no matter what SOMEBODY is going to find something to cry about.
SummonerAU
Smash Lord
I still want to know about the pools ruleset <_<
WAH WAH WAAAAHBULENCE
Wario paramedic would be horrible
WAH WAH WAAAAHBULENCE
Wario paramedic would be horrible
luke_atyeo
Smash Hero
- Joined
- May 10, 2008
- Messages
- 7,215
lol, mouth to mouth
I also cannot wait for brawl pools to be released. <3 Want to see my lovers in the pool who want to get down and dirty with me.
Anyway Shaya seriously just put FD back as a starter. Or i am going to have to unleash the jackie chan inside of me.
Anyway Shaya seriously just put FD back as a starter. Or i am going to have to unleash the jackie chan inside of me.
luke_atyeo
Smash Hero
- Joined
- May 10, 2008
- Messages
- 7,215
alzi, jackie chan hates you
C~Dog
Smash Champion
Alzi.
Shut up.
Shut up.
I believe I will be doing pools as best of three sets.
Also, my mistake on part of Lylat Luke.
Hell and back is a bit far... i went through and showed Falco as an example of how his starter stages would go... and to me it seemed like only against Snake does [Snake] get most of the options (well snake decides between sv/bf/ps1 instead of just sv/bf...), on three stages none the less that Falco does not do too badly on. If another character in a particular match up gets screwed over I am interested to hear it, because I know in general that the 3 start up stages of SV, BF, YI are pretty simple in regards to safety (but not necessarily giving the best starter stage between two characters).
Also, my mistake on part of Lylat Luke.
Hell and back is a bit far... i went through and showed Falco as an example of how his starter stages would go... and to me it seemed like only against Snake does [Snake] get most of the options (well snake decides between sv/bf/ps1 instead of just sv/bf...), on three stages none the less that Falco does not do too badly on. If another character in a particular match up gets screwed over I am interested to hear it, because I know in general that the 3 start up stages of SV, BF, YI are pretty simple in regards to safety (but not necessarily giving the best starter stage between two characters).
SummonerAU
Smash Lord
Pools as best of 3 sets
IT'S LIKE DEATH POOLS ALL OVER AGAIN D:
(Why do you want to go best of 3 sets for pools Shaya? Won't that eat a heap of time?)
IT'S LIKE DEATH POOLS ALL OVER AGAIN D:
(Why do you want to go best of 3 sets for pools Shaya? Won't that eat a heap of time?)
Trillest
Smash Ace
Rob does not do well on lylat it kills our projectile game. It's strange that any1 ever would think that imo. Try and angle a laser on a curved floor and pick up gyro on a slop without dash attack
i thought i was pretty clear in my arguments, but if you want examples, ill give you some that i can speak with authority on. Obviously not all people will have the same choices as me for stage picks, but I'm choosing stages according to my experiences playing on them against players of a pretty high level.
Snake vs. Wario
MU ratio: 60:40 Wario
Strikes on Regular (5) Stage System: Snake: BF + PS1, Wario: FD + YI, therefore playing on SV
Strikes on Thriller Stage System: Snake: BF + PS1, Wario: SV + YI, therefore playing on Lylat
Gay gay gay. It's like a mini-BF. Wario can run away forever on this stage. If Snake drops a percent lead, he really shouldn't be coming back on this stage. At least on SV, there wasn't many places to run, and Snake could try and corner Wario, but good luck doing that on these platforms. Mind you, PS1 is even more stally thanks to the gayer transformations, and Wario outruns Snake on BF easily too. The matchup just changed for Wario's benefit.
Ice Climbers vs. MK
MU ratio: 60:40 MK
Strikes on Regular (5) Stage System: MK: FD + SV, ICS: YI + PS1, therefore playing on BF
Strikes on Thriller Stage System: MK: SV + BF, ICS: YI + Lylat, therefore playing on PS1
Wow this MU just got stupid. Ics obviously need flat stages without obstacles, but here they completely run out of them. PS1 transforms, releasing MK from chaingrabs and providing obstacles that give MK more camping/running options, and screw Nana over due to her ******** DI. But Lylat screws over their recovery, camping game, and can makes cgaingrabs harder, in much the same way that YI does. This MU just went from hard to stupid really quickly.
Ice Climbers vs. Wario/Diddy/Marth/Falco/Any other character in the game
Refer to above description. It doesn't change too much. Ice Climbers get screwed over more than anyone else in the game.
I was going to complain about Snake vs. Marth/MK, but I don't think the list makes these matchups that much worse. It does make Ice Climbers unplayable though.
Snake vs. Wario
MU ratio: 60:40 Wario
Strikes on Regular (5) Stage System: Snake: BF + PS1, Wario: FD + YI, therefore playing on SV
Strikes on Thriller Stage System: Snake: BF + PS1, Wario: SV + YI, therefore playing on Lylat
Gay gay gay. It's like a mini-BF. Wario can run away forever on this stage. If Snake drops a percent lead, he really shouldn't be coming back on this stage. At least on SV, there wasn't many places to run, and Snake could try and corner Wario, but good luck doing that on these platforms. Mind you, PS1 is even more stally thanks to the gayer transformations, and Wario outruns Snake on BF easily too. The matchup just changed for Wario's benefit.
Ice Climbers vs. MK
MU ratio: 60:40 MK
Strikes on Regular (5) Stage System: MK: FD + SV, ICS: YI + PS1, therefore playing on BF
Strikes on Thriller Stage System: MK: SV + BF, ICS: YI + Lylat, therefore playing on PS1
Wow this MU just got stupid. Ics obviously need flat stages without obstacles, but here they completely run out of them. PS1 transforms, releasing MK from chaingrabs and providing obstacles that give MK more camping/running options, and screw Nana over due to her ******** DI. But Lylat screws over their recovery, camping game, and can makes cgaingrabs harder, in much the same way that YI does. This MU just went from hard to stupid really quickly.
Ice Climbers vs. Wario/Diddy/Marth/Falco/Any other character in the game
Refer to above description. It doesn't change too much. Ice Climbers get screwed over more than anyone else in the game.
I was going to complain about Snake vs. Marth/MK, but I don't think the list makes these matchups that much worse. It does make Ice Climbers unplayable though.
High level of play that doesnt conform to just about anyone elses opinions does not mean its right...
Calling it the regular striking system is a misnomer. Previous BBR rule set had starter/counters, and it was the fault of the BBR at the time to have such a classification. A better classification is coming out that I am pretty much following.
As Meta Knight why the HELL would I strike smashville or battlefield? Do you not have ANY idea about what those stages give for meta knight in the match up?
THEY ARE TWO OF HIS BEST STAGES out of any of the starters against ICs.
HE CAN RUN AWAY ON SMASHVILLE DUE TO THAT PLATFORM THE ENTIRE TIME.
ON BATTLEFIELD HE CAN CAMP ON PLATFORMS AND SHUTTLE LOOP OUT OF SHIELD TO HIT ICE CLIMBERS BELOW HIM TRYING TO UAIR AND IF THE SL MISSES CANCEL (with NO LAG) on the top platform.
Thank you for bringing fourth your opinion in the match up from 6+ months ago.
Now I am not entirely certain you have even PLAYED Wario on all those 5 stages. But Pokemon Stadium is a BAD WARIO STAGE. Snakes projectile coverage during most transformations means Wario cannot even get near him, the stage in non-transformations is similar to FD. Roof is the LOWEST out of all starters and Grab release to uair kills at ridiculously low percents.
Now I JUST talked to Ted and he said he would strike YI and Lylat. But definitely does not think PS1 is exactly a good stage for Wario (against Snake either way). Wario hates slopes in general. Wario needs flat stages MORE than Snake.
Wtf attila... why are you embarressing yourself?
Calling it the regular striking system is a misnomer. Previous BBR rule set had starter/counters, and it was the fault of the BBR at the time to have such a classification. A better classification is coming out that I am pretty much following.
As Meta Knight why the HELL would I strike smashville or battlefield? Do you not have ANY idea about what those stages give for meta knight in the match up?
THEY ARE TWO OF HIS BEST STAGES out of any of the starters against ICs.
HE CAN RUN AWAY ON SMASHVILLE DUE TO THAT PLATFORM THE ENTIRE TIME.
ON BATTLEFIELD HE CAN CAMP ON PLATFORMS AND SHUTTLE LOOP OUT OF SHIELD TO HIT ICE CLIMBERS BELOW HIM TRYING TO UAIR AND IF THE SL MISSES CANCEL (with NO LAG) on the top platform.
Thank you for bringing fourth your opinion in the match up from 6+ months ago.
Now I am not entirely certain you have even PLAYED Wario on all those 5 stages. But Pokemon Stadium is a BAD WARIO STAGE. Snakes projectile coverage during most transformations means Wario cannot even get near him, the stage in non-transformations is similar to FD. Roof is the LOWEST out of all starters and Grab release to uair kills at ridiculously low percents.
Now I JUST talked to Ted and he said he would strike YI and Lylat. But definitely does not think PS1 is exactly a good stage for Wario (against Snake either way). Wario hates slopes in general. Wario needs flat stages MORE than Snake.
Wtf attila... why are you embarressing yourself?
when i said regular system, i was just talking about the current one, or the one we've used til now. we're playing with words now...
platform camping ics on sv is kinda difficult. its easy enough for them to hit with an uair, then another, meaning mk is the one having to approach. the platforms on ps1 are spaced quite far from each other, allowing mk to hop from one to the other quite easily. and stage transformations are gay for ics.
and why would ics be attacking mks shield on bf anyway? utilt is a much better move on a grounded character on a platform... uair is for aerial characters, dayo.
that being said, they do lose the mu anyway.
question. why would wario want to get near snake, ever? he gets a cheap hit or two, then spends the rest of his life dodging nades, until snake gets fed up and approaches (getting punished for it). wario stalls for two minutes, and suddenly he has the strongest attack in the game ready. gg.
oh, and snake grabbing wario? lol. not only does snake have the slowest non-tether grab, but wario is also the (second?) best at not getting grabbed in the game. there really arent too many excuses for it.
EDIT: ok, im over the argument. but i will ask, if can, to describe as succinctly as possible
1. what was wrong with the old list, and
2. what makes this list more fair?
platform camping ics on sv is kinda difficult. its easy enough for them to hit with an uair, then another, meaning mk is the one having to approach. the platforms on ps1 are spaced quite far from each other, allowing mk to hop from one to the other quite easily. and stage transformations are gay for ics.
and why would ics be attacking mks shield on bf anyway? utilt is a much better move on a grounded character on a platform... uair is for aerial characters, dayo.
that being said, they do lose the mu anyway.
question. why would wario want to get near snake, ever? he gets a cheap hit or two, then spends the rest of his life dodging nades, until snake gets fed up and approaches (getting punished for it). wario stalls for two minutes, and suddenly he has the strongest attack in the game ready. gg.
oh, and snake grabbing wario? lol. not only does snake have the slowest non-tether grab, but wario is also the (second?) best at not getting grabbed in the game. there really arent too many excuses for it.
EDIT: ok, im over the argument. but i will ask, if can, to describe as succinctly as possible
1. what was wrong with the old list, and
2. what makes this list more fair?
Wario gets grabbed. Nearly every pivot grab in the game out disjoints him (and outranges).
He may be one of the best at avoiding the grab... but a character only needs one... Characters with disjoints grab Wario (more so than other characters) due to wario having to commit to get inside those horrendously evil hitboxes. Snake also has the power to grab out of holding a grenade... !_!
But really, the situation can be turned around... you hit Wario once and then all he has from blowing up your nades is bite which can be pivot grabbed if he telegraphs it...
But according to Ted, he would strike YI and Lylat, so you would get smashville...
Wario -really- does not like slanted stages.
Ice Climbers utilt has a lot more ending lag than their uairs, and they are a multi hit move... potentially allowing for an SDI punish...
Anyway match in question (watch the 2nd one too) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0EIeCIm3Qqg&feature=related
Shuttle Loop on prediction of an uair (so they are close to you underneath you). Tornado at the end of a sh blizzard on the horizontal. If MK mispredicts hes safe.
Sorry for being so harsh Attila
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Whats wrong with the current list? It shapes the game to one distinct perception of Flat/Plat only... One which has Falco and Diddy as awesome against MOST of the cast than they would be. Hell battlefield is also flat/plat and is still good stages for those characters that do not swing match ups by large margins... Why do those characters get smashville anyway?
The main issue of course is that the current list does not follow the definition of what a starter list should be. Which is allowing the most neutral stage to occur between two characters on the first match of a set. Unfortunately characters such as Diddy/Falco/ICs/Dedede/Pikachu are seen to have extremely strong match up swings between ONE starter than another. Some characters get this with Yoshis Island for example, but NONE of them have match up swings like they do on the other starters, hence against those characters you are forced to strike one stage... why against Diddy/ICs/Falco are we forced to strike 2 stages that swing match ups GREATLY? When at most they only have to strike one.
What makes this list more fair?
I think the fact that it aims for its definition rather than the old list shows that its more fair. Why have a stage list that promotes Diddy/Falco/ICs more than -anyone- else? Why doesnt ROB get to have Rainbow Cruise as his forced first stage against everyone he wants to? Yes it is a fact that SV/FD/BF have the least amount of intrusions in matches... but Smash is not Street Fighter... It is not a traditional fighting game. In Street fighter the first match (and every match) is undoubtably neutral... why MUST WE HAVE A STARTER LIST that has the least amount of intrusions but the first match is NOT neutral?
A lot of match ups are still going to be played on the same stage. You are still going to get Smashville against Wario with Snake. This ideal is a means of balancing the game OVER ALL. Not just balancing it so Falco/Diddy/ICs can do better against MK.
He may be one of the best at avoiding the grab... but a character only needs one... Characters with disjoints grab Wario (more so than other characters) due to wario having to commit to get inside those horrendously evil hitboxes. Snake also has the power to grab out of holding a grenade... !_!
But really, the situation can be turned around... you hit Wario once and then all he has from blowing up your nades is bite which can be pivot grabbed if he telegraphs it...
But according to Ted, he would strike YI and Lylat, so you would get smashville...
Wario -really- does not like slanted stages.
Ice Climbers utilt has a lot more ending lag than their uairs, and they are a multi hit move... potentially allowing for an SDI punish...
Anyway match in question (watch the 2nd one too) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0EIeCIm3Qqg&feature=related
Shuttle Loop on prediction of an uair (so they are close to you underneath you). Tornado at the end of a sh blizzard on the horizontal. If MK mispredicts hes safe.
Sorry for being so harsh Attila
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Whats wrong with the current list? It shapes the game to one distinct perception of Flat/Plat only... One which has Falco and Diddy as awesome against MOST of the cast than they would be. Hell battlefield is also flat/plat and is still good stages for those characters that do not swing match ups by large margins... Why do those characters get smashville anyway?
The main issue of course is that the current list does not follow the definition of what a starter list should be. Which is allowing the most neutral stage to occur between two characters on the first match of a set. Unfortunately characters such as Diddy/Falco/ICs/Dedede/Pikachu are seen to have extremely strong match up swings between ONE starter than another. Some characters get this with Yoshis Island for example, but NONE of them have match up swings like they do on the other starters, hence against those characters you are forced to strike one stage... why against Diddy/ICs/Falco are we forced to strike 2 stages that swing match ups GREATLY? When at most they only have to strike one.
What makes this list more fair?
I think the fact that it aims for its definition rather than the old list shows that its more fair. Why have a stage list that promotes Diddy/Falco/ICs more than -anyone- else? Why doesnt ROB get to have Rainbow Cruise as his forced first stage against everyone he wants to? Yes it is a fact that SV/FD/BF have the least amount of intrusions in matches... but Smash is not Street Fighter... It is not a traditional fighting game. In Street fighter the first match (and every match) is undoubtably neutral... why MUST WE HAVE A STARTER LIST that has the least amount of intrusions but the first match is NOT neutral?
A lot of match ups are still going to be played on the same stage. You are still going to get Smashville against Wario with Snake. This ideal is a means of balancing the game OVER ALL. Not just balancing it so Falco/Diddy/ICs can do better against MK.
swordsaint
Smash Master
attila, getting fed up and approaching just means you're impatient, that's not a problem with the match of wario and snake.
hell, even not being able to get grabs or avoid those "cheap hits" is your problem, not snakes.
hell, even not being able to get grabs or avoid those "cheap hits" is your problem, not snakes.
C~Dog
Smash Champion
I hate you so much Diddy.
swordsaint
Smash Master
Why? Its a stage that swings match ups in favour of ROB because the opponent is unable to deal with what the stage focuses on (vertical aerial movement + good recovery).
Seems pretty fair to me.
Also
I guess I am just sick of Diddy then
I LAG
Smash Lord
imo this should be a snake free tourney
lets just try it. it might make it a funner tourney ^_^
lets just try it. it might make it a funner tourney ^_^
C~Dog
Smash Champion
Yes let's ban that menace once and for all, the metagame would truly be better without his ****-you tilts and stupid grenades.
If it was a snake free tourney then luke would get ***** hard. Espcially by me because he enjoys size 1 type of ****.
Shaya are the rules going to change coming closer to thriller or will they just be exactly the same as they are now? What i think you should do first is have FD as a counterpick on one of the boost tournaments before thriller so you can get a better idea of how it is since you don't want to try out anything silly at a major tournament.
Espcially by me because he enjoys size 1 type of ****.Shaya are the rules going to change coming closer to thriller or will they just be exactly the same as they are now? What i think you should do first is have FD as a counterpick on one of the boost tournaments before thriller so you can get a better idea of how it is since you don't want to try out anything silly at a major tournament.
C~Dog
Smash Champion
You just don't get it do you.
... FD has been a counterpick at boosts for a while now.
Oh never knew that as i don't really follow the NSW side of things. What did people think of it being as a counterpick?
I've seen swordsaints rage about it already lol. I still think if we put it as a starter it will be much better. If you hate diddy kong Shaya just ban FD first then boom FD won't be a starting match for your first match. Then against diddy you will ban FD boom problem solved.
Could we have a poll vote Shaya whether or not to keep FD as a starter or CP? Think this would be the best way to settle this once and for all.
I've seen swordsaints rage about it already lol. I still think if we put it as a starter it will be much better. If you hate diddy kong Shaya just ban FD first then boom FD won't be a starting match for your first match. Then against diddy you will ban FD boom problem solved.
Could we have a poll vote Shaya whether or not to keep FD as a starter or CP? Think this would be the best way to settle this once and for all.
C~Dog
Smash Champion
Wouldn't that make your opinion valid though?
Scoot didnt rage about FD at all (at least in this topic)...
Hell he (last time I checked) completely agrees to it being a counterpick.
But in reality -> ITS NOT A COUNTERPICK.
Its just a starter that is best not contained in a starter list that is 5 or less stages. Hence its a counterpick.
What dont you get Alzi?
Seriously...
Hell he (last time I checked) completely agrees to it being a counterpick.
But in reality -> ITS NOT A COUNTERPICK.
Its just a starter that is best not contained in a starter list that is 5 or less stages. Hence its a counterpick.
What dont you get Alzi?
Seriously...
swordsaint
Smash Master
I didn't majorly complain EVER about FD being a counterpick. I questioned it at first, asked for Shaya's reasoning behind it. He explained, I waited, we played a BOOST with FD counterpick. The whole move of FD to counterpick was the best thing Shayas done. (exaggeration, but it was a good pick) And I've completely agreed to it ever since.
Alzi, go away.
Alzi, go away.
Nova
Banned via Warnings
*Waits for luke to textually violate Alzi*
Also, I don't care about stages.
I usually just strike Yoshi's and don't care about the rest anyway.
I'll probably strike Lylat though, because I have a habit of losing on it.
Bawwwah.
Also, I don't care about stages.
I usually just strike Yoshi's and don't care about the rest anyway.
I'll probably strike Lylat though, because I have a habit of losing on it.
Bawwwah.
swordsaint
Smash Master
This isn't Perfect Dark on 360 Nova.
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