Thoughts on Shield Nerfs

[shanus]

Now that more people should hopefully be able to see this board I think it's time we solidified a couple of decisions regarding official codeset materials.

So for our first decisions, lets tackle the shield nerfs.

Shield Stun –Personally, I really like the value of 11/22/5. I have tested 10/20/5, 11/22/5, 13/22/5 & many old values for the old code. I think 11/22/5 really hits it home. The slide on being hit is not drastic and enables some shieldgrabbing, but greatly lowers the over shield grabbing game / viability. Personally, I think Mookie's codeset which I think still uses the old shieldstun code of 2.5/5 is way too high (unless he changed it) and causes unnecessary sliding.

Power shield Window – I just started to using this at 2 frames and I guess I see a bit of a difference in the amount of random power shields that come up during physical attacks. I think this reduces a bit of the luck that happens in auto-PSing some physical attacks and can be construed as a good thing.

The other stuff:

Shield Damage: Some people like to be able to do more damage to the shield with their attacks, I think this is plain unnecessary after the two nerfs above.

Shield Gain: Same as shield damage, I see no reason to nerf the defense any more as we already tipped the balance away from it.

I'm probably forgetting some others as I just woke up.

 

[KishSquared]

Sorry for my ignorance, but 11/22/5 and 10/20/5 make no sense to me... lol. I'm not up on what these values mean in respect to Shield Stun. I love the idea of decreasing the power shield window though. What was Melee, wasn't it also 2 frames?

I will say that I adamantly agree with your assessment of Shield Damage and Shield Gain, specifically Shield Gain. I think it's ridiculous to slow the regen of shields. I've never once thought that it comes back too fast.

 

[shanus]

Sorry for my ignorance, but 11/22/5 and 10/20/5 make no sense to me... lol. I'm not up on what these values mean in respect to Shield Stun. I love the idea of decreasing the power shield window though. What was Melee, wasn't it also 2 frames?

I will say that I adamantly agree with your assessment of Shield Damage and Shield Gain, specifically Shield Gain. I think it's ridiculous to slow the regen of shields. I've never once thought that it comes back too fast.

The 3 number lingo X/Y/Z apply a value proportional to X divided by Z stun&slide for strong hits, and Y divided by Z stun&slide for weak hits (sort of). Basically, the higher the numbers, the more ridiculous the shield stun in this case. I might have reversed what X & Y are right now, but I think you get the idea. It's more of a test and see what feels right kind of thing. I.e. Its hard to shield grab a sweetspot knee on shield because of the slide and stun, but a flubbed knee is easily shieldgrabbed.

EDIT: Confused New & Old codes, check new post below for accurate description

 

[KishPrime]

I still think there should be a delay on shield raise/drop. The instant raise/drop is the main problem with the shield as is with regard to the mechanics of Brawl. I need to try the shield stun codes though.

I also think that too much has been done to buff offense, but that's a separate topic.

 

[The Cape]

I am using Kupo's ruleset from Jan 30th right now and I dont think he has changed the sheild values since then. They feel perfect. Its enough sheild stun that it allows for low aerial hits to be followed up for a "sheild combo" and knock the person backwards. It has enough stun that sheilding isnt broken, but not enough that sheilding is a stupid idea (ala SSB64).

I have run into only one problem. In this match: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3OXLV4yuxUA
You can see my Dedede break Sheik's sheild. Nakamaru informs me that he actually released the sheild button because he wanted to be it. I need to do more testing, but I am curious if this is only from Dedede's jab (which is cool) or all rapid jabs in general?

Edit: the quickness of the sheild drop is one of the cooler things in Brawl that I think was a good addition. In the absense of powersheilding (which I still dont want in this) you can do things like sheild rushing. Sheild stun allows for safe attacks on sheild, but the sheild is now more useful and viable than ever before.

 

[KishSquared]

Hmmm... still not quite following the mechanics, though I get the gist of it. I'd love to know what exactly the values represent.

Why does shield stun need to be increased? Shield-dropping is hardly a mechanic that breaks the game, and it really helps characters fight against high-tier characters like MK, imo. Same question with shield sliding, I see no reason to increase shield sliding, otherwise all characters will be like Luigi.

 

[shanus]

Cape, Kupo's codeset makes yoru attacks do 25% more damage to the shield than before. You don't think that is kinda ridiculous (esp. for things like marth's shieldbreaker?) Can you test that out quickly, I'm rolling with a modified Mookie codeset so I don't have that on.

Glad you agree with me on the 11/22/5 stun though, I agree its perfect. I think its only DDD's jab, it seems to have weird stun properties.



EDIT: Here is the description on how the shieldstun code works:

Shield Stun V8 [spunit262]
C28753FC 00000005
83810034 8083013C
2C040000 41810014
1F9CXXXX 3B9CZZZZ
3880YYYY 7F9C23D6
60000000 00000000

(Old shield stun*X+Z)/Y=new shield stun
Our values:
X=11
Z=22
Y=5

 

[The Cape]

I was talking more about the stun and such. Lets get rid of that +25% break on the sheild and it should be just fine. I never played vBrawl enough to give two ****s about how much damage each hit on sheild did.

Also, I hope we keep the Dedede jab sheild break on there. Its hard to setup (may only work with a wall) and its a cool and original feature.

 

[Dark Sonic]

@Kishsquared-It's so that more characters can have moves that are safe on block. A lot of characters simply don't have the range to safely attack shields, so then need the shield stun in order to mount an approach. For instance, DK vs DDD. DK has absolutely no moves that are safe on block in this matchup, since none of his moves are disjointed enough to avoid being grabbed. However, with added shield stun, his move ends before the DDD is able to grab and thus he retracts his hurtbox, allowing him to be safe.

Other instances, Ganondorf lacks safe moves because the opponent can shield the attack, drop their shield, and attack Ganon before his lag is finished.

Shield sliding is also to help the characters who lack range (once again, think of Ganondorf). And no, not all characters are like Luigi. They slide a little bit when hit by strong moves, unlike the almost non existent slide in regular brawl.

Although the most important reason for including these shield nerfs is a result of the added hitstun. Grabs and attacks in general are more damaging, because they lead into combos. We like this, but this also causes shields to become OP because the approaching player is the one that ends up getting hit by these attacks. Here's the 2 scenarios

Player A approaches player B with safe attack
Player B shields
Player A drifs out of range of player B
Positions reset

Nothing happens in this case

Player A approaches with unsafe attack
Player B shields
Player B grabs and throws Player A
Player B combos player A
Positions reset.


Compared to regular brawl, player B got a lot more out of that one counter hit, but the difficulty of getting that one counter hit did not really change. Being on the defense is better than being on the offense, because it has less risk for the same reward. At this point, the entire game becomes centered around making your opponent approach you, so that you can shield it, so that you can land a combo on them as a countermeasure. Shield stun was implemented so that more combo or tech chase starters become safe approaches. At that point, you have shield pressure, where there is a negative aspect to always shielding your opponents approaches. They wear away your shield because their approaches become more frequent, while still being unpunishable, so overall shielding has less appeal and leans more towards simply not taking damage, rather than using it to counter attack your opponent.

Offense becomes stronger as a result of the defense becoming weaker, and there is more incentive to approach (and thus, less incentive to shield camp).

 

[The Cape]

So I guess Dark Sonic likes them how they are?

I like how the shields work right now because it forces you to think on the defense, including timing your rolls, sidesteps and air dodges better as well as sheilding. The increased sheild stun, slide back, and to a small extent, even the increased damage on sheilds is a great way to force the offensive hand a bit more.

I would say keep it how it is with Kupo's set (and make attacks do 10% more on sheild hit instead of 25% if possible)

 

[shanus]

Yeah the values for the stun are pretty much agreed on. The purpose of this thread was to really explore the other 3 players: the power shield modification, the shield gain & the shield damage and to discuss if they were necessary and what values to use.

Also, 1000th post :-O

 

[Dark Sonic]

^^Yeah, I like them how they are. I agree that the shield damage is a little too much (Two pounds breaks a shield), but I kinda want Marth's shield breaker to...break shields (lol?). Not in one hit of course, but just take a good chunk of it for people who shield too much against him (it creates a devastating mindgame of whether or not you should try to shield)

 

[The Cape]

Powersheild at 2 frames feels right. Good timing = PS, but it doesnt come out randomly.
The sheild gain that Kupo has seems fine. Its fast enough that you can get it back, but if someone keeps pressuring you, you will lose your sheild.
If we can weaken the sheild damage from 25% to 10% from the Brawl standard I think that will make it just perfect.

(and then I would need to think up a new Mario sheild breaker combo V.V)

 

[KishSquared]

I'll say again that I disagree with modifying the shield regen rate. Is it that much different from Melee? The regen already allows you to pressure someone's shield, and some characters (Marth for example) can already place an enormous amount of pressure on someone that shields constantly.

As for the shield stun concept, haven't we already included l-canceling? Why isn't that enough to improve offensive capabilities?

Let's not be so hasty to improve the offensive game that we remove the ability to be defensive. There needs to be a balance, and while Brawl is clearly slanted in favor of defense, I think there needs to be a caution about giving offense too much power all at once.

 

[Dark Sonic]

I'll say again that I disagree with modifying the shield regen rate. Is it that much different from Melee? The regen already allows you to pressure someone's shield, and some characters (Marth for example) can already place an enormous amount of pressure on someone that shields constantly.

I agree that modding the regen rate is unnecessary

As for the shield stun concept, haven't we already included l-canceling? Why isn't that enough to improve offensive capabilities?

Because a lot of attacks still weren't safe on block. Did you know that you can actually grab characters in the middle of their jabs! Then you've got plenty of instances where someone tries to approach with an aerial, only to have it shielded and then the opponent tilts you (think of Snake). Well, even with halved lag it still works.

Let's not be so hasty to improve the offensive game that we remove the ability to be defensive. There needs to be a balance, and while Brawl is clearly slanted in favor of defense, I think there needs to be a caution about giving offense too much power all at once.

I think the current amount of shield stun is fine. Basically, once jabs become uninterpretable I'm happy, since that creates the whole "is he going to continue the jab or stop and do something else" mixup.

 

[KishSquared]

Hmmm... grabbing through jab combos is a good example. I hadn't thought of that. Stupid Sonic jab.

Glad to see we agree about some other stuff. My main concern is ensuring that we don't eliminate all defensive options, which sometimes seems to be what people want.

 

[Dark Sonic]

Yeah, I must admit, I really do prefer offense over defense, but I understand that not everyone shares that preference.

 

[MookieRah]

Personally, I think Mookie's codeset which I think still uses the old shieldstun code of 2.5/5 is way too high (unless he changed it) and causes unnecessary sliding.

Umm... I've been using the new codeset at 11/22/5 now for a while. I was just confused cause I was gone for a week or so and had no idea about the new shield stun code and was asking why the old one was bad.+

@Power shield window
I don't approve this. I don't approve it because it's not as powerful as it was in melee, and you can actually use it to power shield predicted attacks. If you lower the window it would be next to useless for anything but projectiles. A lot of the reason this code was made was because of the fear that everyone would learn to power shield everything, which is completely absurd.

@random power shields
If you unintentionally power shield something it's unlikely that you would reap the full benefit of said power shield cause you would have to "react" to it. I don't see random power shields as a problem.

I also don't approve of shield gain reduction and shield damage increases. The only reason it's in my codeset right now is to try it out. I think it's kinda ridiculous, so I'm gonna toss it as soon as the character specific gravity/short hop code comes around.

 

[shanus]

Umm... I've been using the new codeset at 11/22/5 now for a while. I was just confused cause I was gone for a week or so and had no idea about the new shield stun code and was asking why the old one was bad.+

@Power shield window
I don't approve this. I don't approve it because it's not as powerful as it was in melee, and you can actually use it to power shield predicted attacks. If you lower the window it would be next to useless for anything but projectiles. A lot of the reason this code was made was because of the fear that everyone would learn to power shield everything, which is completely absurd.

@random power shields
If you unintentionally power shield something it's unlikely that you would reap the full benefit of said power shield cause you would have to "react" to it. I don't see random power shields as a problem.

I also don't approve of shield gain reduction and shield damage increases. The only reason it's in my codeset right now is to try it out. I think it's kinda ridiculous, so I'm gonna toss it as soon as the character specific gravity/short hop code comes around.

SOrry there, someone said in the IRC and in the code agenda thread your shieldstun values were 2.5/5, so its just written wrong about your code values in there.

So far, it seems almost everyone agrees on the following:

shieldstun at 11/22/5

shield gain: unmodified

shield damage: most want unchanged

Power shield: Still contested


In terms of believing people can't seize the power shield I think thats incorrect. There have been plenty of opportunities on autoPS's or lucky PS's resulting in shieldgrabs during normally blocksafe moves which the other player blatantly says it was luck. I think the window is something that is worth examining and deciding on.

 

[KishPrime]

Because a lot of attacks still weren't safe on block. Did you know that you can actually grab characters in the middle of their jabs!

People could do this in Melee too to some characters, and it was not a problem. I don't see why this automatically gives us a reason to modify an entire parameter.

 

[KishSquared]

@random power shields
If you unintentionally power shield something it's unlikely that you would reap the full benefit of said power shield cause you would have to "react" to it. I don't see random power shields as a problem.

I also disagree with this. I see them all over the place, and they're quite easy to react to. It has little to do with shield reduction and no shield lag and more to do with sliding. The fact that you don't move while powershielding is just ridiculous to me. If someone is standing near an edge and I use an unsafe move planning on knocking them off the ledge, but they accidentally PS and don't move, I get punished.

If they intentionally PS, I'm all for getting punished. But I see accidental ones all the time, and it drives me nuts.

Anyone know what the current frame window is?

 

[shanus]

People could do this in Melee too to some characters, and it was not a problem. I don't see why this automatically gives us a reason to modify an entire parameter.

Have you tried it out yet? It works very well right now. Defense is still strong, it just gives a few more approach options where you can't just get away with camping all day long.

 

[KishPrime]

Well see, I still operate under the premise that we make as few changes as possible for maximum effect.

Unless I can see an area with a major need for improvement, I'd rather see it go untouched. But I'm fully aware that most people back here aren't even close to this mentality.

 

[Dark Sonic]

People could do this in Melee too to some characters, and it was not a problem. I don't see why this automatically gives us a reason to modify an entire parameter.

Umm...what characters are you talking about. Are you talking about Marth or something.

Fox's jab could not be interrupted, Falco's jab was safe on block, Falcon's jab could not be interrupted , Samus's jab could not be interrupted, Mario, Dr Mario, Luigi, Link, Pikachu, Young Link, Game and watch, Ness (well, he uses d-tilt), Yoshi, Kirby, Pichu, and Mewtwo all had jabs that cannot be shieldgrabbed between the first and second hits (some could be shieldgrabbed before the rapid jabs.

The point of shield stun is to make characters have some safe approaches. They need to have some kind of approach that actually leads to something if it hits in order to have incentive to actually go on the offense.

We modified the parameter because it did cause problems in brawl! When you see Snake run up to someone, block their moderately fast attack, let go of his shield and still have time to uptilt them before they even reach the ground (and this is on an aerial done at the apex of a shorthop mind you), then you have a problem.

If they intentionally PS, I'm all for getting punished. But I see accidental ones all the time, and it drives me nuts.

Anyone know what the current frame window is?

edit: never mind. I thought it was eight

Unless I can see an area with a major need for improvement, I'd rather see it go untouched. But I'm fully aware that most people back here aren't even close to this mentality.

And I think shieldstun was an area in need of a major improvement. Avoiding damage is in itself a benefit. I see no reason that you should have the opportunity to counterattack your opponent regardless of what move they use (this only applies to some matchups, but it is there). That's what spotdodging is supposed to do.

 

[Almas]

I believe the default may be 4, not 8, frames.

 

[Dark Sonic]

I believe the default may be 4, not 8, frames.

Strange, I remember reading somewhere it was 8.

My bad.

And I had an entire post about it too.

edit: Actually, out of curiosity I decided to test it. The default powershield window is 3 frames.

So I don't think it's the powershield window that's causing the problems.

 

[KishSquared]

Ultimately, there's nothing wrong with creating the code and allowing the TOs decide whether to use it. I'm a very firm believer in letting the TOs determine which rules should be used and which ones shouldn't. And there's certainly no harm in giving them that option.

 

[Almas]

I think part of the problem with the idea of giving the TO the power is that the complexity of codes is increasing. Character specific tweaks like SH height are going to be nigh on impossible for the average person to write.
While it would be possible for coders to pull out codesets for them, it's not like we have an excess of writers. You also wouldn't want the codeset changing too much from tourney to tourney.

 

[leafgreen386]

Put it this way: if melee had seven different variants played would it have gone anywhere near as far as it did? The item vs no item argument was bad enough, but now we're talking about fundamental game mechanics here that could be varying from tourney to tourney. There needs to be a standard.

As for shield stuff...

Shieldstun: obviously I agree with the 11/22/5 value

Shield loss (when you just hold the shield down): It's the same as it was in melee - it lasts for 178/179 frames (don't remember which), which is ~2.98 seconds. Doesn't need to be changed. (I know no one was really talking about changing this one but I figured I'd throw it in anyway).

Shield regen: This shouldn't be messed with, either, and I'm pretty sure its also the same as it was in melee. It currently takes ~11.9 seconds for a shield to fully replenish from near-break (714 frames). With the .05 setting, it takes ~16.67 seconds for a shield to fully replenish from near-break (1000 frames). The main reason I think most people think brawl regens faster is that it's easier to get away from your opponent to camp your shield back to a suitable state, especially with how brawl is a slower game. I don't see this being a problem at all in brawl+.

Shield damage: I don't know how else to put this except for... screw that. I don't know what the value for this was in melee, but damage feels just fine as is. You can shield pressure thanks to the shieldstun, but you're not likely to get a shield break unless you're marth or jiggs maybe, which is how it should be. Shield breaks are supposed to be rare.

Powershielding: Ok, time to clear up a little confusion here. The powershield window is 4 frames, which is the same as it was in melee, except now I'm pretty sure it's applied to both physical attacks and projectiles (in melee, there was a 4 frame PS window for physical moves and a 2 frame window for projectiles). However, there is also another "near perfect shield" value in the game which drastically decreases stun, which has a value of 8 frames. My suggestion is that we take both of these values down to 2 frames. Due to the way brawl handles powershields (the timer starts when your shield goes up, not from when you press the button, which I believe is how melee handled it), they're a lot more likely to happen by accident. Unless we change the way powershielding in this game works entirely, the best way we could fix this would be to just reduce the PS window. Brawl is still a slower game (even with all of our changes), which makes it a little easier regardless of what the actual PS window is. The 2 frame PS will still be useful for projectiles, although it will be quite a bit harder to PS regular attacks. Just an FYI: I've been playing with a PS window of 3 frames, and I think it's still too high.

@dark sonic: Are you sure about that value? The codeset I sent you before had a 3 frame PS window in it, so unless you've disabled that code since then it probably influenced your test results (I'm assuming you used the frame advance code to test this, so it would be fairly easy to forget to turn off a code like that).

 

[Dark Sonic]

@dark sonic: Are you sure about that value? The codeset I sent you before had a 3 frame PS window in it, so unless you've disabled that code since then it probably influenced your test results (I'm assuming you used the frame advance code to test this, so it would be fairly easy to forget to turn off a code like that).

Yes, I disabled every code except for the debug pause and button mod codes (I was testing out random other stuff as well).

Squirtle has a 1 frame jab, so I used him for testing.

Paused game, held R, pressed Z once. Frame 1 shield comes up.
Continued to hold R, pressed Z once. Frame 2
Continued to hold R, pressed Z once. Frame 3
Continued to hold R, held A on Squirtles controler, pressed Z once. Frame 4 Squirtles jab hits shield, no powershield.

It worked on frame 3 though. I'll check again just to be sure.

edit: Checked again making sure to turn everything off. PS window is still 3 frames.

 

[leafgreen386]

Well then... this is awkward. The code spunit gave us had a default of 4.

 

[spunit262]

The window is 4, but that includes 1 frame that the shield is not out.

 

[The Cape]

I agree with Leaf's post. The only thing that needs changed is to get rid of the extra sheild damage and make powersheilding a bit harder.

 

[shanus]

Alright, so now we just need to determine the most agred upon PS window. I'll try out 2 and let you know my thoughts

 

[KishSquared]

Would someone mind linking the code for this? :D

For that matter, we should probably pull a Kupo here and post all current codes we're discussing/using.