Thought's on Kirby's current tier postion?

[Jester Kirby]

Kirby is slowly loseing the massive ammount of initial flood of metagame he started with. I think he will remaine slightly higher in the mid tiers since he can fare decently against most of the commonly used characters in Tournaments. Thing is, he can;t surprise people as much as he used to...throw followups get hader to pull off everyday since everyone knows they are comming. I think Kirby will drop but no lower than high C-Tier. His worst matchups are uncommon characters. (Ice Climbers for example)

 

[fromundaman]

Of course, man! You'll have to remind me, though... I have a very small problem, see: whatever I'm told, if I don't apply it daily or repeat it every day to myself, I forget. My horrible attention span makes it hard for me to remember things if I don't make sure I implant it into my memory.

And, I also want you to play against my friend NOT because I want to test you, but because I want to see how you would play against them, and see if I could learn anything new from another person... In turn, I'll play anyone you want me to play! ;D

Sounds good to me. Hopefully by then I'll have gone to tournies again and won't be quite as bad as I am now...

Also, who's coming from PR?

And yup, I'll have one I'll want you to play as well :D



Oh and Jester, there really wasn't much of a metagame to start with. I mean, we aren't as bad as the D3 in this respect, but we've never really had much of a 'metagame' to begin with.

That being said, there is no way we would drop to C. B, maybe, but I think we'll stay in A for a while still. Our metagame may not improve, but our character is solid and has pretty good MUs, especially vs most of the higher tiers.

 

[Jester Kirby]

Right, Snake, Metaknight, and Falco are the most common characters when it comes to tournaments. Kirby can fair decently against all of these if you know how to approach the fight. What I was talking about in the beginning with metagame was all of the grab combos we had. "The gonzo combo" for example. Nobody really knew about those, nowadays though, you toss a f-throw on a character they know that an up-air is comming for a follow up. So we're being forced to mix ti up more and more and constantly outplay our opponents. C tier was a worst case scenerio. I think he will drop to B for the next tier list though. He'll most likely stay there after that.

 

[Pink murder]

I don't think we'll have any good metagame anytime soon, but I don't think Kirby will drop much. As long as we read our opponents well and punish accordingly, mix up our play-styles every once in a while, and throw in a couple of mindgames, we'll still have a pretty solid character.


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[fromundaman]

I see a lot more Diddies, Warios and Marths (*sigh*) than Falcos... That may just be my region though.

 

[evanswift]

Edit: This was posted in the wrong thread.
Noob mistake

 

[Hyesz]

Kirby's position in 3.0 made me happy.

It's enough to say "Yeah, I'm using a good character" without getting the tier johns from opponents.

 

[KMcVay]

I think Kirby's spot on the 3.0 tier list is about right. He is a very much improved character and I'm glad he is pretty high in the tier list. Hopefully more advance techniques will be discovered with Kirby. I am curious to see if he goes down or up in the next list. We'll find out soon enough hopefully.

 

[Lord Viper]

☆ At this rate, Kirby might move down because there isn't enough AT's that Kirby have, and the match up ratings are looking grim. We need to discover a useful AT. ☆

 

[Kewkky]

ATs won't determine if a character should rise or lower: it's how the character is played, and the potential that the character's most effective playstyles have in a competitive environment.

If I was in the SBR and had played with a couple of peeps, i'd make sure Kirby retains his #13 spot

 

[Eagleye893]

... spam sh FF'd nair? or do most kirby mains already do that?

.... I second kirby, but i can't think of anything to push his game (for me) just a little bit further... I also need a little help in knowing kirby a lil bit more so I can have a second that is nearly equal in skill level to my main.

Ness deserves to be at least C tier, but thats not relevant....
Kirby should be where he is, because he really is a good character, but he just has a couple of bad matchups and, to the best of my knowledge, no significantly won matchups, apart from maybe Gdorf.

 

[Asdioh]

If Kirby doesn't drop at least a couple spots on the next tier list, I'm going to... I don't know.

I mean, are Kirbys even winning tournaments? :/ I haven't paid attention to tourneys in a long time, but I never see the word "Kirby" anywhere above "49th" or whatever.

I think I've seen YBM get 1st at a few tourneys, but that's the midwest. I'm wondering about the whole country, or the whole WORLD @_@


But yeah, Kirby...
I'm gonna stop talking now because all I've been able to do lately is play wifi. Wifi is terrible.
Like, I played some Pikachus lately, and I could NOT beat them with Kirby. I switch to Pikachu to do dittos (despite the fact that I rarely play Pikachu) and get closer to winning. I can even get closer to winning while playing PIT, who I also rarely play. :/

 

[Delta Z]

Kirby just isn't very popular with the higher-level guys. All we really have for sure is Chudat, YbM, and t1mmy.

 

[fromundaman]

ATs won't determine if a character should rise or lower: it's how the character is played, and the potential that the character's most effective playstyles have in a competitive environment.

This.

And to be honest, our MUs aren't that bad. Having a few bad MUs is not abnormal at all. We have what, 2? We do pretty well against almost all high tier, so I wouldn't worry. Anyway, even if we do fall, what's it matter? We still have a strong playable character, and really, unless we fall to low tier, it's really no change to me (Kirby in low-tier tournies would be funny though XD ).

 

[Pink murder]

The tier list is... well... just a list IMO.

Even if we do fall a little - which I believe we will - it won't really matter too much.


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[Lord Viper]

☆ Lower the list the less you see the character, and the less likely people will discover new tricks. ._. ☆

☆ I agree that Kirby won't drop too far at this rate... or just stay the same on the list. ☆

 

[Pink murder]

Although that may be true, I doubt a couple of spots down will make too much of a difference.

Besides, at the rate we're going, do you think we'll find something useful anytime soon?


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[A1lion835]

And to be honest, our MUs aren't that bad. Having a few bad MUs is not abnormal at all. We have what, 2? We do pretty well against almost all high tier, so I wouldn't worry. Anyway, even if we do fall, what's it matter? We still have a strong playable character, and really, unless we fall to low tier, it's really no change to me (Kirby in low-tier tournies would be funny though XD ).

We have more than 2 bad matchups.

Assuming "High"=S and A Tiers, here's how the matchups play out:
Kirby-Enemy

MK: 40-60
Snake: 40-60
Wario: Ratings from various sources are around 55-45 in either's favor
Falco: 55-45 (though t1mmy, thrilla and I (me because I've listened to their arguments, and they're good) believe this is 45-55)
Diddy: 50-50
D3: Same as wario.
Marth: 40-60
G&W: 40-60
Pikachu: 45-55
Olimar: 40-60
Ice Climbers: 30-70 (last time I checked, there was more to be discussed, but it was still 40-60 or worse)
ROB: 45-55

So... 6 40-60's, 2 45-55's, 3 even/hovering around even unclearly, one 55-45 and 0 60-40's.

Not to be rude, but Kirby's matchups vs high tiers are much worse than how your posts describes them. Maybe I'm just a n00b though.

 

[momochuu]

I don't think GW vs. Kirby is that bad anymore. Just don't run into his stuff.


I think Diddy is a little worse for us than 50:50, but that's just me. x.x

 

[fromundaman]

We have more than 2 bad matchups.

Assuming "High"=S and A Tiers, here's how the matchups play out:
Kirby-Enemy

MK: 40-60
Snake: 40-60
Wario: Ratings from various sources are around 55-45 in either's favor
Falco: 55-45 (though t1mmy, thrilla and I (me because I've listened to their arguments, and they're good) believe this is 45-55)
Diddy: 50-50
D3: Same as wario.
Marth: 40-60
G&W: 40-60
Pikachu: 45-55
Olimar: 40-60
Ice Climbers: 30-70 (last time I checked, there was more to be discussed, but it was still 40-60 or worse)
ROB: 45-55

So... 6 40-60's, 2 45-55's, 3 even/hovering around even unclearly, one 55-45 and 0 60-40's.

Not to be rude, but Kirby's matchups vs high tiers are much worse than how your posts describes them. Maybe I'm just a n00b though.

Not only has there been a lot of debate on these (I personally think (I personally disagree with 6 of the ones just up there), but what I meant was truly bad matchups (which the only one up there is ICs, though I think there should be another...), not slightly disadvantaged.

Now sure, that doesn't make us look too good, BUT... I point you to this chart:

There aren't that many characters that have better overall MUs than us (really just the characters that ARE better than ours), not to mention I still think we should have a lot less orange, but ehhh...

 

[Lord Viper]

☆ Olimar vs Kirby is a freaken lie. >.> ☆

☆ Anyways, Wario vs Kirby match up is confusing to me, three months ago it seems like Wario was just overly gay when playing Kirby, but then it really depends if you watch how he moves at you, and if you play defensively he's going to fake you into a shield to a bite which can be really tricky. Though many Wario mains say that Kirby's B-Air is very annoying to deal with, lol. ☆

 

[fromundaman]

☆ Olimar vs Kirby is a freaken lie. >.> ☆

I completely agree with this.

 

[Lord Viper]

☆ Well Kirby's, looks like our beginning of a cold start that we all feared has just begun. As many people has figured out, Kirby the character himself is no longer a threat to most high or top tiers that's above him in match up's. Also due to a large amount of tournaments that doesn't have Kirby in the top five at least, his tier list placement seems just about right currently. Anyone's thoughts of the current tier list? ☆

 

[TaterSalad0811]

Well, IDK about the matchup part, I mean think about it:

45-55
45-55
50-50
50-50
55-45

That makes up, what 60-70% of all tournament entries?

 

[A1lion835]

Well, IDK about the matchup part, I mean think about it:

40-60
40-60
50-50
50-50
(debated for 55-45 falco's favor)

That makes up, what 60-70% of all tournament entries?

That sucks pretty hard. (fixed)

 

[TaterSalad0811]

That sucks pretty hard. (fixed)

The matchups in the thread are kind of outdated >.>

Those were the most recent I could find

 

[fromundaman]

Honestly, he does better vs most top tiers than most of those below him, but yeah, Viper does have a point.

Meh, still a solid character IMO.

 

[*JuriHan*]

I said this many times. Kirby is going to drop out of A tier. People know how to deal with him, and his matchups got worse, not better. I said Lucario and ZSS was going to pass him up. It happened. Kirby's entire moveset gets shield grabbed if misspaced. He has some rather poor match-ups against MANY good tourny characters (MK, Marth, ZSS, Snake, Olimar, G&W, ICs, DDD,) and has no safe approaches. Camping, mostly with projectiles hurts him and he cannot handle it as well as other characters can. He only has very good matchups against ****ty characters that are never used in competitive play. He should be bottom of C, I have no clue what happened to Rob. Can someone explain?

Kirby is a solid, basic character. It's now reflected in his tier position. I'm glad he dropped hard.

 

[Delta Z]

You seem to have the same mentality a lot of the guys did a few months ago...

I'm not surprised he fell. We haven't been doing **** with his metagame. So how do we get it started up again? Kirby needs a proverbial Maxim Tomato...

And, IMHO:
40-60
45-55
50-50
50-50
55-45

 

[Asdioh]

You seem to have the same mentality a lot of the guys did a few months ago...

I'm not surprised he fell. We haven't been doing **** with his metagame. So how do we get it started up again? Kirby needs a proverbial Maxim Tomato...

And, IMHO:
40-60
45-55
50-50
50-50
55-45

There's really not much to do with his metagame. We've been trying to figure that out for probably over half a year.

And in MY opinion (which is all important)

35-65
40-60
45-55 / 40-60
45-55
50-50/55-45
40-60
40-60/45-55
45-55


Meta Knight, in my opinion, is Kirby's only SUPER **** UNWINNABLE matchup, assuming of course that we're talking about the character, not the player. I put 35-65 just to show you guys how bad I think it really is if the MK plays to his maximum "gay" potential. Kirby can win, yes, but it's the player winning, not the character.

I want to know what Chudat thinks of the matchup, but I have a feeling he won't respond :\

 

[Lord Viper]

The matchups in the thread are kind of outdated >.>

Those were the most recent I could find

☆ Sadly the one's A1 put are the current one's right now. >.< ☆

I said this many times. Kirby is going to drop out of A tier. People know how to deal with him, and his matchups got worse, not better. I said Lucario and ZSS was going to pass him up. It happened. Kirby's entire moveset gets shield grabbed if misspaced. He has some rather poor match-ups against MANY good tourny characters (MK, Marth, ZSS, Snake, Olimar, G&W, ICs, DDD,) and has no safe approaches.

☆ I think majority of the members said Kirby will drop out of A tier, however since the tier list has changed majorly, I don't think A tier matters, just the placement of the characters spot by spot. Kirby's entire movesets get's shield grabbed? You have to name them all and how they get shield grab for better understanding. Also I don't count Mr. Game & Watch, King Dedede, or Olimar as a poor match up's but oh well. =/ ☆

He only has very good matchups against ****ty characters that are never used in competitive play. He should be bottom of C, I have no clue what happened to Rob. Can someone explain?

☆ Currently, Kirby has a good amount of even match up's to a handful of the characters above him, his advantage match up's I can't really say anymore, a lot of people disagree with my match up thoughts. =P ☆

☆ I can't explain ROB, maybe it's low tournament attendance. ☆

Kirby is a solid, basic character. It's now reflected in his tier position. I'm glad he dropped hard.

☆ I don't think dropping -3 is dropped hard. =P ☆

I'm not surprised he fell. We haven't been doing **** with his metagame. So how do we get it started up again? Kirby needs a proverbial Maxim Tomato...

☆ I agree. Sadly at the same time, with not many Kirby attendance on the boards, there's no way of evolving his metagame. )= ☆

And, IMHO:
40-60
45-55
50-50
50-50
55-45

☆ I would say I agree, until I saw Snake being a slight disadvantage and Meta Knight being a disadvantage, (yes, I'm still ranting about this). ☆

☆ My thought's, there's only so many people that rep Kirby in tournaments that place well, and some are MIA in major and publicly known tournaments. With this, what can we expect but for Kirby to drop down on the tier list. Right now currently, this tier list looks very weird on the placement of B, C, F, and G right now. ☆

 

[fromundaman]

Viper, while I respect your opinion, when was the last time you played in tournament? I mean, MK has evolved in the last year or so, and is without a doubt a disadvantage. I would almost agree with Asdioh as a 65-35 (Though that's pretty much the only one I could potentially agree with (IMO it's like 62-38 or something. You know, worse than 60-40 but still not a **** MU)).



I also want to say that kirby's whole moveset def does not get shieldgrabbed if you space right, except maybe by characters with ridiculously huge grabs.

 

[Tiersie]

I agree with fromundaman, you really have to space like a ****** to be constantly shieldgrabbed. Kirby is not only a solid beginner character, he has a low starter ceiling but if you break through it you'll find a whole plethora of new options.

40-60 I hate metaknight.
45-55 Learn to gimp ****it
45-55 / 40-60 Get him offstage is you only option really, I've found that even aircamping doesn't really work against those bananas, once offstage though he's not that bad.
45-55
60-40 Same story, side b isn't as unpredictable as you think, just hover over/shield/hang on the ledge, it greatly reduces their options, you can even cover both the on stage and ledge phantasm by FF'ing a bair to ledgegrab, trust me I've played against falco for over a year.
40-60
40-60/45-55 Left is for defensive marths (which really there aren't many of) right is for offensive marth (who are easier to punish but stil have that ****ed falchion.

Oh and also I have no idea why you people find DDD to be a disadvantaged MU. Somebody care to explain?

 

[Kewkky]

If the BBR doesn't ban MK and messes around with the ledgegame's rules (scrooging limiter, anti-planking rules like an official LGL), then the Kirby:MK ratio will change to 45:55 and stay there. I ASSURE YOU ALL OF THIS 100%!

= With scrooging and planking and platform camping... 35:65. Without, 45:55.
= Tch, I know this one inside out. 45:55/40:60 (depends on your playstyle, if you revolve around bair it's 40:60)
= 55:45/50:50. I truly believe we have a very slight advantage, once I got the time I'll cover it in the MU discussion.
= 60:40. It's definitely our advantage here. Whenever a character is forced to change his whole playstyle in order to deal with a character, it's proof that it's no easy MU.
= 40:60. Chaingrab is nasty, but we have a throw to handle that (uthrow), fast ranged tilts (dtilt/ftilt/utilt), rising bairs, the ability to aircamp, *INHALE (spit that Nana under the stage, it's easier than it sounds)*, and a nice spike (dair). Blizzard wall? We have our upB shockwave (:O A use for it!).
= 40:60. He's tough and I know he can be pretty difficult, but he's not worse than this ratio.
= 45:55. If he gets the lead, we'll have to intercept his pseudo-stalling, since he's too fast for us. Our utilt breaks his aerial approaches, even dair. If you dair him offstage, dair him again and watch him die, there's no way he can come back, it's a guaranteed death.


That's how I view Kirby vs top tier. :/

 

[TaterSalad0811]

If the BBR doesn't ban MK and messes around with the ledgegame's rules (scrooging limiter, anti-planking rules like an official LGL), then the Kirby:MK ratio will change to 45:55 and stay there. I ASSURE YOU ALL OF THIS 100%!

= With scrooging and planking and platform camping... 35:65. Without, 45:55.
= Tch, I know this one inside out. 45:55/40:60 (depends on your playstyle, if you revolve around bair it's 40:60)
= 55:45/50:50. I truly believe we have a very slight advantage, once I got the time I'll cover it in the MU discussion.
= 60:40. It's definitely our advantage here. Whenever a character is forced to change his whole playstyle in order to deal with a character, it's proof that it's no easy MU.
= 40:60. Chaingrab is nasty, but we have a throw to handle that (uthrow), fast ranged tilts (dtilt/ftilt/utilt), rising bairs, the ability to aircamp, *INHALE (spit that Nana under the stage, it's easier than it sounds)*, and a nice spike (dair). Blizzard wall? We have our upB shockwave (:O A use for it!).
= 40:60. He's tough and I know he can be pretty difficult, but he's not worse than this ratio.
= 45:55. If he gets the lead, we'll have to intercept his pseudo-stalling, since he's too fast for us. Our utilt breaks his aerial approaches, even dair. If you dair him offstage, dair him again and watch him die, there's no way he can come back, it's a guaranteed death.


That's how I view Kirby vs top tier. :/

I strongly agree with this one, most of your guy's MUs are all based on how YOU play, not how a Kirby SHOULD play.

And I put the 44:55 on MK because even though the SBR doesn't have official bans on planking (what's scrooging?), most tournaments do anyway.

But the Diddy MU could really change if some of you guys helped out in the Research thread

7(0.0)7 go now

And i'm at 45:55 Snake cuz' mah B-airs are always fresh daily!

 

[fromundaman]

= 40:60. Chaingrab is nasty, but we have a throw to handle that (uthrow), fast ranged tilts (dtilt/ftilt/utilt), rising bairs, the ability to aircamp, *INHALE (spit that Nana under the stage, it's easier than it sounds)*, and a nice spike (dair). Blizzard wall? We have our upB shockwave (:O A use for it!).

Just want to say, Uthrow is not a great idea. Grab one, and the other charges a smash where you land, which means free damage for you and none for the one you grabbed, since you get intercepted before hitting the ground.
Bthrow is probably better there. Sometimes Dthrow if they are close enough to each other.

 

[TaterSalad0811]

Just want to say, Uthrow is not a great idea. Grab one, and the other charges a smash where you land, which means free damage for you and none for the one you grabbed, since you get intercepted before hitting the ground.
Bthrow is probably better there. Sometimes Dthrow if they are close enough to each other.

Well, won't the explosion from landing interrupt the charging?

 

[fromundaman]

Not only does that not have any affect (It's purely for cool effects), but my point is they hit you BEFORE you land, AKA before you finish the throw, meaning no knockback or damage for the one you were throwing, and you eat a charged smash. It's a lose-lose situation.

 

[Kewkky]

Just want to say, Uthrow is not a great idea. Grab one, and the other charges a smash where you land, which means free damage for you and none for the one you grabbed, since you get intercepted before hitting the ground.
Bthrow is probably better there. Sometimes Dthrow if they are close enough to each other.

Forgot to mention platforms. Uthrow will separate both ICs if you do it below platforms. They can't kill you, and if they fail to intercept (which they migh due to the tight timing they have to realize whats going on, aim and time their attacks) then you successfully separated them.

 

[TaterSalad0811]

Forgot to mention platforms. Uthrow will separate both ICs if you do it below platforms. They can't kill you, and if they fail to intercept (which they migh due to the tight timing they have to realize whats going on, aim and time their attacks) then you successfully separated them.

Good plan. What confuses me is why the IC matchup is thought to be so bad, they can chaingrab pretty much everybody, so what is it that they can do to Kirby that doesn't apply to the rest of the cast?