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There is no such thing as *auto win* in Brawl.

Yuna

BRoomer
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Match-up numbers don't take mistakes into account, and they assume that both players are at the highest level of play possible.
We're assuming they'll be making the "average amount" of mistakes. We're assuming they are both human and will make human mistakes. If both parties were to be playing perfectly, they'd just constantly dodge, roll and out-space each other, taking almost no damage.

We're assuming that at the highest level of play, both sides will make mistakes, but not inordinate, huge and stupid ones. We're assuming that they'll also possess the knowledge, training and skill to minimize their mistakes as much as possible.

How often do you see someone at the highest level of play die because they Up B:ing into the side of Final Destination? Not very often. How often do they die from aiming Sheik's or Zelda's Up B:s wrong? Not often. How often do they miss that chaingrab? Not often.

We're assuming they'll be making as many mistakes (and of the same magnitude) as people usually do in your average match and the highest level of play. We're assuming that since they're on roughly the same level, both sides will also commit the same amount (and magnitude) of mistakes.

So we are not going to assume that D3 is going to keep screwing up the infinite, SD and just run into DK's moves while DK does everything perfectly. In a game where both sides are making the same amount of mistakes and playing at the highest level, what would the outcome be?

DK would lose. Every single time. It is an unwinnable match-up, an auto-win/auto-lose. Deal with it.
 

1048576

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I always thought the matchup ratios represented out of 100 games against players of roughly equal (and high-level) ability, the number of times each character would win.

I think DK could grab maybe one of every 200 games if there is a 50-50 chance of out-manuevering the opponent (which there isn't; DK has more options if D3 is only going for the grab) and it takes DK like six punishments to take the stock whereas it only takes D3 one.
 

cj.Shark

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don't get grabbed.

guys, an 100:0 would be like UNPLUGGING THE GUY'S CONTROLLER AT THE START OF EVERY MATCH. in all the "almost unwinnable" matchups, there is a still a chance, albeit slight, that you can win because of mistakes, etc, etc. or you may be just that much better than the opponent. there are ALMOST UNWINNABLE matchups, but NO 100:0s.
if you unplugged their controller. you could still lose from
A. the stage
b. Items(if they are turned on)
c) the timer

so it isnt AUTO WIN!
 

M15t3R E

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You're right. It's never an auto-win.
D3 vs. DK is like 95/5 and Pikachu vs. Fox is 90/10.
Not an auto-win, but close enough.

I think we might as well call it an auto-win for lack of better term. What would you propose we call it instead?
 

Brinzy

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It IS an auto-win. If DK and DDD are at the highest level and are of even skill... then that DDD should be crushing that DK each and every single time.
 

RyanPF

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Flawed statement: DK can't beat DDD.
Correct statement: DK doesn't beat DDD.

There's a difference between saying it can't ever happen (auto-win) and saying that it would be a miracle if it did happen. I don't think you could say that DK could never beat DDD in a tournament setting; I could be wrong, but I think there is a reasonable amount of skill difference between the top and bottom seeds. Not enough to even the matchup, but other factors could possibly, though not likely, tip the scales enough in DK's favor to boost him to a win.
 

Dragoomba

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You're right. It's never an auto-win.
D3 vs. DK is like 95/5 and Pikachu vs. Fox is 90/10.
Not an auto-win, but close enough.

I think we might as well call it an auto-win for lack of better term. What would you propose we call it instead?
****tarded matchup
 

Demenise

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Nothing is auto win. At the highest levels of play, everything is a minimum of 98/2.
 

PKNintendo

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Because that's not the character ratio. Picking DDD against DK isn't universally auto-win. Like I said, if the DK player is significantly better than the DDD player, he can win. So a 100:0 ratio wouldn't be accurate.

Picking DDD against DK is an auto-win at high levels of play.


From a practical standpoint, a 99:1 ratio is an automatic win at high levels of play because the skill gap between the elite isn't significant enough to ever overcome it. If it was, they wouldn't be elite.

I fully realize that you understand how hard the match-up is for DK. I'm not even disagreeing with you and saying that the match-up is universally auto-win. I'm explaining to you that the match-up is auto-win, but only at high levels of play.
Okay guys, I get it now.
Thanks for clearing that up.
 

Nidtendofreak

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It becomes an auto win when DK finally gets grabbed on his last stock by D3. At that moment, it's impossible for DK to win.

Everything else was already covered by the discussion that had already occurred.
 

Brinzy

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^ So "don't get grabbed" is how Fox wins?

Because last time I checked, Fox doesn't win.
 

Amazing Ampharos

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I'll just throw this out there. At CDF2 (a tournament yesterday with a bunch of MO and KS guys), the Fox v Pikachu matchup came up twice... and on all sides the players were good. The Fox player actually beat the first Pikachu and BARELY lost to the second one. It was pretty crazy watching him in action against Pikachu; I thought his controller was going to fall apart when he was grabbed since he was mashing so ridiculously fast (you could have heard his mashing from the other room even though several other matches were going on and people were talking). If the Pikachu was even a single frame too slow with a down throw, he got out. When he wasn't being grabbed, he was generally playing exceptionally well. He was shining Thunders from high altitudes, avoiding Pikachu's attacks nearly perfectly, and applying tons of obviously hard to handle pressure very intelligently. The chaingrab isn't fatal anyway; even when it took him up to 80% from 0%, he made up for it by just not dying for a while. Pikachu obviously had a big advantage, but "auto-win" wouldn't describe it at all. Beating that Fox with Pikachu definitely required real effort, and if you weren't an actual Pikachu player, counterpicking Pikachu on him would do you no good at all.

"Auto-win" is so misleading because it suggests you can win without even trying, but that's obviously not true at all. If your opponent is good enough, I don't care how extreme the matchup is you are going to have to work hard to win it. Also, I'm pretty sure none of those matchups are bad enough that you have to worry about being counterpicked by someone who doesn't actually use the character in question. Like, Fox v Pikachu is bad... but is it so bad that someone at a high level who almost never uses Pikachu can counterpick him against a top Fox and win? I doubt it. That makes it WAY less bad because odds are you'll know if someone is a Pikachu main before you play so, even if you won't be beating the Pikachu mains with Fox, you can still use Fox with total confidence against everyone else (well, Sheik/Zero Suit Samus problems, whatever). I know I would not ever counterpick toward those auto-win matchups... I feel way better about beating Fox or DK with Mr. Game & Watch than with those other guys because I actually know Mr. Game & Watch and not those other guys...
 

Mocha19

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Ehhh.. I'm pretty sure at the high levels to highest levels of play in Brawl, there ARE auto-wins no matter how good the underdog actually is. This happened quite a lot in Melee where low tiers like Pichu and Ness were always dominated by Sheiks and Marths. Smash has evolved into a different fighting game than others, so you can't really bring those up either.

Sorry.. That's just the way it is. If a Dedede knows how to infinite, he'll do it. And he'll win. If a Fox knows how to Drill Shine Infinite in Melee, he'll do it. A lot of matches really ARE that bad.

Top players will be able to use more than just their mains too.
 

Harbinger631

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This thread was over at page 1.

No, of course there are no matchups where it is literally an automatic win for one party. People just say "auto win" because it isn't realistically winnable at high levels of play and they don't feel like appending "if your opponent has functioning motor skills" or "if you are not, in fact, God himself" to the phrase every time.
Read this very carefully, and move on.
 

Newskool

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No, of course there are no matchups where it is literally an automatic win for one party. People just say "auto win" because it isn't realistically winnable at high levels of play and they don't feel like appending "if your opponent has functioning motor skills" or "if you are not, in fact, God himself" to the phrase every time.
This.

This topic wasn't ever about "It's never an auto-win if you try!" The TC didn't like the use of the term auto win when the match was not indeed an automatic win. You people have completely missed the point.
 

Yuna

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Nothing is auto win. At the highest levels of play, everything is a minimum of 98/2.
No, at the highest level of play, the chance of an upset is actually much smaller since people at the highest level of play are less prone to making mistakes! Assuming roughly equal level of skill, match-ups are unwinnable.

I'll just throw this out there. At CDF2 (a tournament yesterday with a bunch of MO and KS guys), the Fox v Pikachu matchup came up twice... and on all sides the players were good. The Fox player actually beat the first Pikachu and BARELY lost to the second one.
Nobody cares. Maybe the Pikachu just wasn't that good. You guys are most probably not playing at the highest level of play.

Pikachu outranges, outprioritizes, outcombos, out-everythings Fox and he has that chaingrab. That Pikachu can't be very good.

The skill level was most probably not equal. The Fox was probably much better than the Pikachu. Or the Pikachu just screwed up a lot.

If the Pikachu was even a single frame too slow with a down throw, he got out.
Yes, I'm sure you can see a single frame's difference. It was not one frame!

When he wasn't being grabbed, he was generally playing exceptionally well.
Or the Pikachu was just playing exceptionally badly.

He was shining Thunders from high altitudes
Obviously Pikachu is bad. Who would constantly Thunder people as soon as they're above them? Especially a Fox, who has a reflector? Thunder is telegraphic.

and applying tons of obviously hard to handle pressure very intelligently.
Pressure? Brawl Fox?

The chaingrab isn't fatal anyway
Doesn't matter. It still tacks on 90%.

and if you weren't an actual Pikachu player, counterpicking Pikachu on him would do you no good at all.
This is not what "auto-win" means.

"Auto-win" is so misleading because it suggests you can win without even trying
No, that is just your incorrect assumption.

"Auto-win" means that at the highest level of skill, in a match between two people of roughly equal skill level, one side has an advantage so steep it is virtually impossible and extremely improbable that they'd lose, ever.
 

marthmaster59

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Once, i asked Isai to do me a favor, he was DK and a gorilla was DDD (ironic, huh?).The gorilla than proceeded to eat the controller. and win.
 

Braggins

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At high levels of play if the infinite is legal a DDD player will ALWAYS beat a DK player. I repeat, DDD will ALWAYS win. 100% of the time.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_mnzu5-tRBI

edit: I realize the DDD vs. DK matchup is heavily in favor of DDD. I would not mind one bit if the DDD infinite was banned.
 
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9.9" = x

10x= 99.9"

10x-x= 90 = 9x

90/9= 10

9x/9= x

x=10
thats not true, you cant go between exact and decimal form like that, besides that equation wasnt correct cause 9x/9=x shortned down becomes x=x which sure is true but it is not equal to 10. The actual equation you were looking for(which is untrue still) looks like this:

1/9=x (1)

1/9= 0,9999999.... (2) (this is what is untrue 1/9 is only almost equal to 0,99999...)

1/9*9=9/9=1 (3)

combined (2) and (3):

1=0,9999999...



just wanted to point that out, so that people stops screaming that math is flawed cause math is flawless. Mathematics for god tier.

this discussion is a matter of definition. you define "auto-win" diffrent but agrees with each other, stops this idiocy, this is madness...

*awaits a "THIS IS SPARTA"*
 

Demenise

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No, at the highest level of play, the chance of an upset is actually much smaller since people at the highest level of play are less prone to making mistakes! Assuming roughly equal level of skill, match-ups are unwinnable.
I was kind of making a joke. To make this post not seem like spam, if two people are at an equal skill level and it's an impossible matchup, it's an auto win. If the one with the advantage is at a slightly lesser skill level than the other, it's still PROBABLY auto win. If the player with the advantage is significantly worse than the other, then it's not auto win.
 

LuLLo

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I'd like to see you win against a good player playing one of the following match-ups as the losing character:
* Donkey Kong vs. King DeDeDe
* Bowser vs. King DeDeDe
* Captain Falcon vs. Meta Knight
* Fox vs. Pikachu
I can see the point of this topic, nothing in Brawl is a 100% win, there is always a small chance that the DK player plays so that the D3 player can't grab him, or makes mistakes.
As for Bowser, it's the same as the above.
Captain Falcon vs Meta Knight, that's the one I REALLY disagree with, because Meta Knight has no infinites on Captain, so he has no 99% advantage over him, other than the fact that Captain totally has no advantages over MK and that MK destroys Captain, but it IS possible to win, I've done it a few times against a good MK (friendly).
As for Fox vs Pikachu, my knowledge kinda ends there...

There's no such thing as a 100% chance to win over a specific character in Brawl, you'd have to use factors outside the game (like plugging out controllers) or serious hacks where you push a B button and your opponent loses a stock, which has not been seen....yet...
 

zeldspazz

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There will always be distinct advntages but an auto-win........

I don't think so
 

1048576

Smash Master
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Infinite time, infinte typewriters.

It will happen eventually, because eventually, DK will guess right for three stocks.
 

Big Red

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thats not true, you cant go between exact and decimal form like that, besides that equation wasnt correct cause 9x/9=x shortned down becomes x=x which sure is true but it is not equal to 10. The actual equation you were looking for(which is untrue still) looks like this:

1/9=x (1)

1/9= 0,9999999.... (2) (this is what is untrue 1/9 is only almost equal to 0,99999...)

1/9*9=9/9=1 (3)

combined (2) and (3):

1=0,9999999...



just wanted to point that out, so that people stops screaming that math is flawed cause math is flawless. Mathematics for god tier.

this discussion is a matter of definition. you define "auto-win" diffrent but agrees with each other, stops this idiocy, this is madness...

*awaits a "THIS IS SPARTA"*
No that guy was right, I think your just dumb.

But he is also dumb because he told us it is actually 9.999... and not ten, but we just say ten, and then proceeded to explain that 9.999 = 10. lolwut?
 

fissionprime

Smash Apprentice
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Mar 3, 2008
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how could it be possible for auto-wins to exist, even if the chance for a DK to win against a DDD of the same skill is 1 in infinity, if you have enough matches, in this case use an infinite number of matches.

1/infinity (chance of DK win) x infinity (# of iterations)= 1

eventually DK will win. Eventually DDD will not get his grabs, no matter how unlikely. Eventually DK will play far enough over his head that he kills DDD before DDD gets in a position to chainthrow him.

Of course no one is denying that there are matchups that are virtually impossible, but they cannot be impossible, there is a clear cut difference between the two.

Mostly it depends on if you consider an auto-win a true automatic win, or if you just consider it such a great advantage that it is nearly insurmountable.
 

Big Red

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right, and that is exactly when the original guy did, except he had everything multiplied by ten to do it terms of matchup ratios.

No guy above me, you can't have an infinite number of iterations, so that won't work.
 

fissionprime

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right, and that is exactly when the original guy did, except he had everything multiplied by ten to do it terms of matchup ratios.
theres a simpler way to prove it
0.11111...=1/9
1/9 x 9= 9/9= 1
substitute 0.11111... for 1/9
0.11111... x 9= 1

@post above
of course in real life you cant have an infinite number of iterations but showing something's impossibility is theoretical so the only way to be decisive is to use the largest possible sample, infinity.

you need to have an infinite number of iterations because unless something does not occur in an infinite number of iterations it is not proven to be impossible. You can say something is impossible all you want but unless it would not occur in a theoretical test with an infinite sample then it is not impossible.
 

Xiahou Dun

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England
It takes a special kind of stupid to notice a small insignificance that everyone is aware of but doesn't deem bother to mention and go around pointing it out to everyone like it's some amazing new revelation and you're the genius who figured it out. But the above with something that has already been pointed out before in exactly the same way many times is just awe inspiring.

Congratulations.
 
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