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There is no such thing as *auto win* in Brawl.

fissionprime

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Mar 3, 2008
Messages
127
Location
New Haven, CT
You can't say that something would happen once in an infinity, it just doesn't make sense since an infinity isn't a measurement of time.
i'm not using infinity as an amount of time, an iteration is a repetition, so infinite iterations of DK vs. DDD would mean having DK fight DDD an infinite number of times.

and to the person directly above me, if that was directed to me, basically the whole thread is about how people are incorrect when stating certain matchups are auto-wins, so I am arguing for my side of this, if it was directed to the whole thread, you don't have to post.
 

Big Red

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jun 18, 2008
Messages
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Location
Just West of Chicago
you can't have DK fight DDD an infinite number of times.

Here, in your defense we'll assume that 1 in infinity is not zero, so it can happen. So we will say that DK can beat D3 once in an infinite amount of attempts. Now then let's assume that some DK beats a D3, well now what? That means that DK will never beat D3 again. So now the possibility is zero. Probabilities can't change like that. The probability is always zero, it can never happen.
 

fissionprime

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Mar 3, 2008
Messages
127
Location
New Haven, CT
but the thing is that infinity minus infinity is still infinity because it doesn't have a defined value. so even if it happens once there are still infinity more matches between the two characters. It is pretty hard to understand. But basically my point is that no matter how big an advantage one character has, eventually the other is going to win. So the win is not automatic, it's just really easy. We probably shouldn't even argue about this, its basically just nitpicking at the term auto-win.
 

CR4SH

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 22, 2008
Messages
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Location
Louisville Ky.
Captain Falcon vs Meta Knight, that's the one I REALLY disagree with, because Meta Knight has no infinites on Captain, so he has no 99% advantage over him, other than the fact that Captain totally has no advantages over MK and that MK destroys Captain, but it IS possible to win, I've done it a few times against a "good" MK (friendly).
CF, when fighting MK, is ALWAYS completely open. There's nothing falcon can do to stop an MK with a clue, and he has no way to punish any MK that has any idea how to space. Any attack falcon does, MK can watch it happen, decide what he wants to do, attack, and watch his attack eat completely through anything falcon throws out. It's completely auto-win. I promise.

For reference I play luigi, and we have it exactly the same way. D3 even has an infinte on luigi, and MK is still a WAY worse matchup. "Don't get grabbed" is way easier than "Hope he ****s up monumentally".
 

Big Red

Smash Journeyman
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Messages
223
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Just West of Chicago
Well of course were just nit-picking.

But discussing mathematical related things is far more interesting than anything related to "Brawl Tactical Discussion"
 

Barge

All I want is a custom title
Joined
Aug 9, 2008
Messages
7,542
Location
San Diego
When doing high level matchups, it's assumed both players are good at the game and are at equal skill level.
100-0 means, if it was DDD vs DK at the same skill level in high level play, the DDD would win.

You obviously can't apply this to...pro vs newbie, casual matches, etc.
 

AlAxe

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Mar 30, 2008
Messages
440
Location
northern CA
At high levels of play there are some matchups that are close enough to auto win you can just assume they are. For example DDD vs DK. Of course there's always the chance that DK plays amazingly, never gets grabbed, and absolutely owns DDD. Or there's always the chance that DDD SDs three times in a row. But the chances of these things occuring is so low, especially at the top levels of the game, the matchup can be considered auto win. No matchup is ever truly 100-0 but some come close enough that you should really just pick another character.
 

xoxokev

Smash Lord
Joined
Sep 8, 2008
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California, baby
Just in case you're still arguing about it...

I think the best DK player in the world DOES have a chance against the best D3 player in the world... for some reason... I do not believe it will be an auto-win, even within the elite
 

CR4SH

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 22, 2008
Messages
1,814
Location
Louisville Ky.
Just in case you're still arguing about it...

I think the best DK player in the world DOES have a chance against the best D3 player in the world... for some reason... I do not believe it will be an auto-win, even within the elite
As it turns out, you're completely wrong.
 

kr3wman

Smash Master
Joined
Feb 16, 2008
Messages
4,639
Once, i asked Isai to do me a favor, he was DK and a gorilla was DDD (ironic, huh?).The gorilla than proceeded to eat the controller. and win.
Isai would have somehow found out a secret button combination that transforms DK into Melee Falcon and proceed to do a sacred combo in Brawl.

The sacred combo would be so epic it would destroy the whole character select screen in each and every Wii that exists and will exist and the only one left would be Falcon. And sonic. 'Cause he's cool. And you need his side taunt.
 

E.G.G.M.A.N.

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jun 14, 2007
Messages
301
Just in case you're still arguing about it...

I think the best DK player in the world DOES have a chance against the best D3 player in the world... for some reason... I do not believe it will be an auto-win, even within the elite
Isn't Mew2King the best DeDeDe in the world? Have fun trying to find someone to beat him with Donkey Kong.
 

¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯

Smash Legend
Joined
Apr 27, 2008
Messages
12,115
Location
Chicago, IL
@OP:

You think there isn't an auto win? Here:

Pick D3
Have opponent pick DK
Use only grab as you move around
Once you grab him, infinite him and then Fthrow for the kill at a high %
Repeat twice more


DK cannot avoid this, it's imminent with DK's big character and D3's grab range.
 

PKNintendo

Smash Master
Joined
Aug 9, 2008
Messages
3,679
@OP:

You think there isn't an auto win? Here:

Pick D3
Have opponent pick DK
Use only grab as you move around
Once you grab him, infinite him and then Fthrow for the kill at a high %
Repeat twice more


DK cannot avoid this, it's imminent with DK's big character and D3's grab range.
What if the DK spaces like hell? I've come to learn that auto wins exist at high levels of play, but your describing if I picked D3 vs some random D3. Not exactly high levels of play.
 

cycon365

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Dec 25, 2007
Messages
157
Location
GA
As it turns out, you're completely wrong.
Factor in Tripping and the *low* possibility of a failed move and it is possible to win

meh, I'm just contributing for no reason really

EDIT: Let's stop arguing for a sec and wish each other a happy new year
 

Woozle

Smash Journeyman
Joined
May 31, 2008
Messages
250
Location
Crofton, MD
Nitpicking over terms isn't getting anyone anywhere.

What are you trying to accomplish here?

You're right. The term isn't EXACTLY ACCURATE. Is that what you want? You're right.

Good for you.
 

bobson

Smash Lord
Joined
Jul 28, 2008
Messages
1,674
@OP:

You think there isn't an auto win? Here:

Pick D3
Have opponent pick DK
Use only grab as you move around
Once you grab him, infinite him and then Fthrow for the kill at a high %
Repeat twice more


DK cannot avoid this, it's imminent with DK's big character and D3's grab range.
Yes, DK can never avoid losing to a Dedede who uses the infinite.

*ahem*
 

kuenzel

Smash Ace
Joined
Apr 29, 2007
Messages
607
Location
St Catherines, Ontario
A 100 - 0 advantage has only happened once in all of Brawl History.
It was Sakurai vs AT's
Luckily the timer ran out before he could 3-stock them.
 

Braggins

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Mar 2, 2008
Messages
127
Two grabs in that video before anyone even dies, and he doesn't infinite DK.

Uh, yeah, whatever.
The point is that even at high levels of play the DDD player can make mistakes and lose. No one on the planet can play without eventually making mistakes. The infinite is not guaranteed. There isn't anyone who has a 100% success rate at "grab to deathing" a DK player with DDD. So, uh, yeah, whatever.
 

bobson

Smash Lord
Joined
Jul 28, 2008
Messages
1,674
Two grabs in that video before anyone even dies, and he doesn't infinite DK.
And? He screwed up the infinite a few times. Point is, DK won.
DK's not going to be able to do that all day, and he's assuredly doomed against better opponents, but if you're going to argue that it's a literal auto-win matchup for Dedede, this simply proves that you're wrong.

I made the exact same post on page 5. Sarcastic line followed by that video.
To be fair, I was going to just go with the *ahem* originally, but I botched an attempt to get past 10chars in the process and had to edit it into something. Fun fact: Smashboards filters alt 0173 into an asterisk. Time to break out the unicode.



This thread is stupid.
 

E.G.G.M.A.N.

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jun 14, 2007
Messages
301
And? He screwed up the infinite a few times. Point is, DK won.
DK's not going to be able to do that all day, and he's assuredly doomed against better opponents, but if you're going to argue that it's a literal auto-win matchup for Dedede, this simply proves that you're wrong.


To be fair, I was going to just go with the *ahem* originally, but I botched an attempt to get past 10chars in the process and had to edit it into something. Fun fact: Smashboards filters alt 0173 into an asterisk. Time to break out the unicode.



This thread is stupid.
The point is that if Dedede had done it right, DK would have been dead right there. We already know it's possible to beat a Dedede who keeps messing up.
 

salaboB

Smash Champion
Joined
Nov 16, 2002
Messages
2,136
The point is that if Dedede had done it right, DK would have been dead right there. We already know it's possible to beat a Dedede who keeps messing up.
You can beat an Akuma who keeps messing up, yet people say he's too unbeatable to be allowed (And I don't disagree with that).

It's somewhat irrelevent to the point how easy that messing up is, if not doing so is realistic at higher levels of play.
 

Crackle

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Nov 8, 2007
Messages
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UCLA
NNID
ZZZobac
This is an argument against superlatives, and the fact of the matter is that superlatives are never entirely proven. Nor are they ever disproven, hence their existence.

So stop wasting thread space.

Higher levels of play still consist of mistakes, but the number of mistakes it would take would deem them lower level players for the match, hence the theorized "higher levels of play" matchup numbers are not applicable to those situations.

Obviously if you're in a horrid matchup you're either going to counterpick or try your best, if you don't do either of those you won't get the most out of the situation and therefore fail at Brawl for the time being.
 

KoRoBeNiKi

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Slippi.gg
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at a higher level of play, there is such thing as an auto win
Please give me an example of a top D3 face a top DK, and the DK winning in a tourney where the Infinite is Not Banned or the top pikas and a top fox.
Some matches are that horrible that it is basically impossible. (you can call it 99 to 1 but really, is it that meaningful?)
I understand people saying to avoid the ice climber infinite because that is true. Ice climbers have 0 to deaths besides this and the only way to beat them in melee is to kill Nana and its exactly the same in brawl besides the fact that Popo can't Kill as well and that Nana has slightly better AI.
The difference for D3 is that D3 has such a humongous range. DK's cannot avoid grabs.
Also, for any wall infinite, most wall stages are banned, if you are afraid, block out that CP, or just avoid it when it does occur like on PS1 or Delfino until its not there anymore. These can be avoided by just dodging for a while.
Other strategies such as laser locks can be avoided by learning how to Tech better.

This is the reason why so many people are in favor of banning the D3 infinite. Furthermore, many tournaments already ban the short step infinite. Just look at the majority of East Coast tourneys.
 

camzaman

Smash Journeyman
Joined
May 12, 2006
Messages
410
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SoCal
at a higher level of play, there is such thing as an auto win
Please give me an example of a top D3 face a top DK, and the DK winning in a tourney where the Infinite is Not Banned or the top pikas and a top fox.
Some matches are that horrible that it is basically impossible. (you can call it 99 to 1 but really, is it that meaningful?)
I understand people saying to avoid the ice climber infinite because that is true. Ice climbers have 0 to deaths besides this and the only way to beat them in melee is to kill Nana and its exactly the same in brawl besides the fact that Popo can't Kill as well and that Nana has slightly better AI.
The difference for D3 is that D3 has such a humongous range. DK's cannot avoid grabs.
Also, for any wall infinite, most wall stages are banned, if you are afraid, block out that CP, or just avoid it when it does occur like on PS1 or Delfino until its not there anymore. These can be avoided by just dodging for a while.
Other strategies such as laser locks can be avoided by learning how to Tech better.

This is the reason why so many people are in favor of banning the D3 infinite. Furthermore, many tournaments already ban the short step infinite. Just look at the majority of East Coast tourneys.
QFT, this guy speaks the truth.
 

pure_awesome

Smash Lord
Joined
Sep 17, 2007
Messages
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Montreal, Canada
Why is this thread still going on? We already established that it's obviously not a universally auto-win match-up.

It's an auto-win matchup at high levels of play. This is only further evidenced by the fact that we have to go back to June, and I'd like to remind everyone that we all sucked back in June, to find a single match where DK beats DDD, and even then, he only does so despite the DDD getting something like nine grabs over the course of the match, exactly triple what should have been needed.
 

IDK

Smash Lord
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I agree with SOLID, but I don't at the same time. Although what he said is true, it's still not auto-win. If anything we should just call it something else 99-1 or something. Basically D3 might not know how to grab or something. In this sense, it really can't be an auto-win, because that would pretty much mean neither character would have to do anything, and D3 would just... win.
 

Yuna

BRoomer
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The point is that even at high levels of play the DDD player can make mistakes and lose. No one on the planet can play without eventually making mistakes. The infinite is not guaranteed. There isn't anyone who has a 100% success rate at "grab to deathing" a DK player with DDD. So, uh, yeah, whatever.
But matches like that do not count towards what the match-up represents. We do not base that on matches where one side does everything wrong while the other does everything right. We're assuming roughly equal skill level, roughly equal level of mistakes, highest level of play (and even if it's M2K or Azen behind the controller, if they're screwing up basic things, they are not playing at the highest level of play).
 

Braggins

Smash Apprentice
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Mar 2, 2008
Messages
127
But matches like that do not count towards what the match-up represents. We do not base that on matches where one side does everything wrong while the other does everything right. We're assuming roughly equal skill level, roughly equal level of mistakes, highest level of play (and even if it's M2K or Azen behind the controller, if they're screwing up basic things, they are not playing at the highest level of play).
Still though, you can't say that the match-up is impossible for the DK player because the DDD will always win if both players plays every match perfectly. It is obviously true that the DDD would win in those circumstances, but it is completely hypothetical and playng mistake free every game is impossible. I agree that when making match-up ratios you obviously shouldn't factor in the possibility of mistakes because that doesn't show what the match-up represents, but I don't think that is what we are talking about. A DDD player can clearly lose to a DK player with a similar skill level. It may be extremely unlikely, but the point is that it is possible for the DK player to win if the DDD player makes mistakes. If you say that match-up is an auto-win then that means you are saying that the DDD player will win 100% of the games if they are both top level players of roughly equal skill. I don't see how this could possibly be true. If you are unwilling to accept the CBK vs. Zelgadis example(I understand why you don't), then just look at it this way. If Bum played 10,000 matches as DK against Seibrek or M2k playing DDD I don't think he would lose all 10,000. On a side note, I think that this thread and my argument are both pointless. In the match-ups we are talking about the outcomes are nearly certain. It doesn't matter if the match-up is an auto-win, or if it is just extremely likely that the favored character will win, because in the end the outcome is the same and the DDD or Pikachu or whoever is pretty much always going to prevail.
 

salaboB

Smash Champion
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Nov 16, 2002
Messages
2,136
If Bum played 10,000 matches as DK against Seibrek or M2k playing DDD I don't think he would lose all 10,000.
Assuming boredom to continue playing correctly didn't enter into the picture for Seibrek or M2K, you might very well lose if you bet on this.
 

Braggins

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Mar 2, 2008
Messages
127
I made the exact same post on page 5. Sarcastic line followed by that video.
To be fair, I was going to just go with the *ahem* originally, but I botched an attempt to get past 10chars in the process and had to edit it into something. Fun fact: Smashboards filters alt 0173 into an asterisk. Time to break out the unicode.
I didn't mean anything by it. I wasn't trying to be condescending or anything. I just thought it was funny that we both made the same post. I don't know if you thought I meant anything or not, or if I came off that way. Just wanted to clear that up.
 

Braggins

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Mar 2, 2008
Messages
127
Assuming boredom to continue playing correctly didn't enter into the picture for Seibrek or M2K, you might very well lose if you bet on this.
Ehhh, maybe, but not if they played 100,000 matches. :-)
 

salaboB

Smash Champion
Joined
Nov 16, 2002
Messages
2,136
Ehhh, maybe, but not if they played 100,000 matches. :-)
Why do you keep assuming there's any way the DK can win?

If DDD keeps playing with his ability to ping DK from range until he forces a grab (At which point he gets a free stock) DK may never, ever win at that level of play unless something like exhaustion/carelessness starts happening (Which isn't playing at the top level anymore).

It's not an auto win in that DDD will have to keep playing and being careful, but it may very well be auto win in that if DDD is careful he can not lose.
 
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