The Winning Steak Cinemas: Video Archive & Criticism Thread Updated

[da K.I.D.]

cus its safer that way.

id rather not go for some stupid gimmicks that could result in me getting grabbed offstage or something.

 

[JoseLuisUrias]

"Sonic Got A Lvl UP" A Sonic combo video by JLuis

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ViIzPtzOeQ
well, hope u like it
im new in this but thats my sonic

 

[Death Arcana]

i just gotta say i love you now for you using Dear you bass remix in your combo vid ^^

 

[Kinzer]

Forget that.

U.N. Owen Was Remixed?

On top of that, Uair shenanigans I haven't seen until now that I wanna try out is awesome.

 

[WedginatorX]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sGC7Kwn9tVA - WEDGE (Sonic) vs Keitaro (Falco)

From CoT5. I was so mad that I lost this match. I missed a crucial jablock on keitaro's second stock that would've given me a huge lead if I didn't **** it up. Figures :/ good match overall though and I now love playing keitaro. Just not falco.

 

[Tesh]

I love how you got grabbed @ 0 and should have taken 50+ damage because you wanted to go for a combo that might yield 20 damage. Thats just the first 20 seconds. Seriously people, if they are close enough to get hit by THAT dtilt hitbox, you might as well grab and upthrow.

Your first death, I saw myself doing the same dumb thing.

LOOOOOOOOOOOOOL your 2nd stock his styled on you. How come he didn't just grab you out of spring? He wanted to make a combo vid clip and he succeeded.

You put yourself in alot of bad risk/reward situations imo.

 

[B.A.M.]

yeah Wedge. and dont worry about the jab lock. he had an easy laser lock that he gave up too. There were too many times you were shielding with no purpose. iono why you are standing there with your shield up at falco's jab/grab range. You know our grab range sucks. stopping there gives you no advantage whats so ever. Again like Tesh said, just waaaay too much situations with high risk/ low reward that you participated in.

 

[WedginatorX]

Yeah, the shield thing is a terrible habit of mine that I have to drop.

 

[B.A.M.]

well you need to not just drop it, you need to understand other options that can aid you. If you are going to dash shield. you should know what you intend to do OoS for a punish and as an escape. If you shield and your out of grab range and you havent been tilted just jump OoS or roll. heck you could aerial spin shot to safety. you have to replace; not drop

 

[WedginatorX]

Hmm that aerial spinshot idea is quite original, and i dont think anyone would expect that. I think I might try that concept out.

 

[Tesh]

Wedge, i gotta real talk you for a sec. You played bad. Like you played Tesh bad. Cept you didn't camp your *** off to try to make up for how bad you played.

I blame Espy, cuz people see him use dtilt and they wanna be like him. Also stop trying to Fsmash people just cuz ur losing. If he is at 130, nothing wrong with being patient and safely kicking him around until u can kill with upthrow/uptilt/nair/ stale bair etc. You SHOULD have gotten punished so many times for those "prayer" smashes. You have to RESPECT your opponent a little and not treat them like idiots. He never jumped into a smash you were charging and somehow u kept trying it and letting him recover for free and slip in little bits of damage to widen the lead.

everybody start camping.

 

[WedginatorX]

-dead- @ I played bad. I'm not one to toot my own horn, but tesh get the **** out of here. Game one i'll admit I played like ***, but I was on-point the other games minus some technical errors.

 

[Tesh]

If that was on point, you are lucky you wound up facing someone that was willing to spike you 3 times rather than cypher grab you.

Like I was saying before, you may have felt "on point" during the other games, but you lost because you made bad decisions and simply hoped your opponent would screw up without you pressuring him. I don't think I saw you try anything other than charging smashes on stage to edgeguard him.

 

[Exceladon City]

Tesh with the real talk. One question though: Why didn't you think to aerial spinshot over the grounded lasers? He would've been open for a cross-up bair or atleast put in a dumb situation.

 

[~TBS~]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sGC7Kwn9tVA - WEDGE (Sonic) vs Keitaro (Falco)

From CoT5. I was so mad that I lost this match. I missed a crucial jablock on keitaro's second stock that would've given me a huge lead if I didn't **** it up. Figures :/ it was a good experience overall though and I now love playing keitaro. Just not falco.

Dont know why but this brought up several memories from last year. Ugh Falco, sup with dem lazers man. Still tho, you did good, but i didn't see anything nearly as extreme as you described to me before this was uploaded. o_ o

Tesh with the real talk. One question though: Why didn't you think to aerial spinshot over the grounded lasers? He would've been open for a cross-up bair or atleast put in a dumb situation.

This might because i fight sonic infused falcos, but wouldnt they bair on reaction or shoot you out of the air?

 

[WedginatorX]

Still dying @ tesh bad. If you're as bad as I was playing, you wouldn't be placing so low at locals.
@Speed- Yeah, he should bair if I tried that. I played Shugo's falco the day before so I was afraid to try anything along those lines. :s

 

[B.A.M.]

Speed if done right then he should have ample time to AD any aerial attempts and if there's an opening, he could take advantage of it. that's the beauty of an aerial spin shot vs a regular one. and down b spinshot is so fast i love it! its bomb following up throws. Aerial spinshot is pretty safe in my book if you are passing the opponent. otherwise if its a direct approach you should get owned. And im assuming Oreo is talking about doing it WHILE he begins to SHDL correct?

The lasers are such a pain though man. and bair ***** so much of our moveset.

@ WEDGE: I think you are equating racking damage against an opponent who also made a ton of mistakes as 'on point'. There were tons of missed opportunities, and there were times just as the first game when you would shield for no absolute reason. Falco was offstage at 9:07 and you just ran and shielded. Why? I mean either you do something that can hit falco out of side b or you rush the edge. Shielding serves no purpose. is he gonna laser you? no.

when you were in mid range you let him get away with a ton of jumping around with no lasers. if falco is mid range and in the air, you need to either rush him with something like uair or a quick fair, or land camp him. you let him land for free when you were in the appropriate range to punish. There were also numerous occasions where you ran all the way across FD to get AWAY from Falco. As if that hurts him. You gave up your positioning and ate laser damage for free. that is NOT on point. You did some decent things here and there, but you cant just take in all the pros and look at the closeness of the match and declare you were on point. Because that means thats your A game; and if thats your A game and all you can think about changing was landing that jab lock game 1 then you're bad. And im pretty sure thats not the case. Re watch your videos man.

While you do so think about why you did what you did, and how you got into situations where you took damage. Because from what I can see, you allowed a ton of free damage for no reason. Imagine if he took advantage of the fact too? it would've been way worse.

Like I said you did some things worth some merit; however there were tons of decisions that really cant be justified by anything.

 

[WedginatorX]

Yeah I just watched through the match again twice actually before I started posting here a few minutes ago, and there are definitely some bad decisions. I wasn't punishing his recovery at all, and that's what I should be doing against falco. I definitely was NOT on point. I'm not playing as terribly as tesh is describing though. My tilts I shouldn't be using on falco in chaingrab percentage. And I shouldn't approach with shield and freeze up or try to grab immediately afterwards. I need to use more spindash shield cancels against falco as well, it works really well to predict his landings and recoveries.
I definitely need to find a solution to my overuse of running in and shielding. Should I stop shorter than I have been and try to bait him to jab or grab? Like run in, stop short (but not shield unless he actually is going to hit me with something), then punish accordingly? Also, what should I be doing to deal with his spotdodge? I feel that was a big problem for me as well.
I really love your critiques btw, BAM. You're so much more helpful than the majority of sonic mains when it comes to this. I appreciate it. This is the kind of help I was trying to get for months lmao.

 

[Tesh]

Still dying @ tesh bad. If you're as bad as I was playing, you wouldn't be placing so low at locals.
@Speed- Yeah, he should bair if I tried that. I played Shugo's falco the day before so I was afraid to try anything along those lines. :s

My "worst" placings are actually when I place last or lastish at regionals (and that one national). I'm pretty sure even the great Wedge would go 0-2 if he had to fight Trela and Illmatic back to back. No shame at all placing last at a Houston local I'd say.

@ "tesh bad" I was referring to one of the major flaws I've notice in my own playstyle, and I saw a good bit of it in your performance against that Falco. You had alot of bad and/or obvious decisions you made over and over and you just HOPED your opponent wouldn't have to knowledge or experience of the matchup to handle it. Ask yourself why he would ever phantasm directly into a spam you tried to fully charge at him if you have NEVER threatened to block off a ledge grab. Hopefully Kinzer will come in and give you a massive collapse tagged play-by-play of your mistakes.

I'm not telling you this because I think I would do better (this this wouldn't be close to the hardest Falco I've ever played), but I saw alot of the SAME exact dumb stuff I would do in the same situations, expecting my opponent not to react properly.


Also, someone remind me of this dtilt stuff. Why do you guys even bother close range dtilts when you could grab. Its not like dtilt beats shield or spotdodges or has super armor.

 

[Exceladon City]

One thing you should abuse like no other is that he likes to do some sort of aerial if he's right above you. Namely, Dair. Try to exploit it next time you two meet in bracket.

@Tesh: I only do the Dtilt against Fox and a few other fastfallers. I almost never stay within jab range of Falco because it's an awful place to be. Granted, there aren't too many GOOD spots to be when fighting Falco and on top of that, I don't play that match-up. It's horrid and it's harder than Lucario imo.

 

[Tesh]

This is probably gonna sound overly basic, but I always tell people I'm coaching to ask themselves "If this doesn't work out, where do I wanna be?". Its just a basic playstyle involving avoiding bad DI, hard punishes and the worst kinds of trades. If you are at 0% vs Falco, I'd say it makes more sense to assault him in ways that make it difficult for him to land his best option at that time (grab). I'd rather get punished by a bair/uair or lasers at that time than get grabbed. Wedge wasn't playing like he cared what he got punished with. It shows in most of his deaths as well. Its just a simple concept in battle.

Sure you might expect or hope your attacks to land before his, around his or instead of his, but if you are wrong about your spacing or what your opponent has planned, how bad do you want it to hurt?


@ oreo, I'm just asking what kind of damage dtilt combos are putting in. I've never seen anyone get hit by more than 4-5 dtilts consecutively. Which is the same damage as upthrow x2 or upthrow to uptilt/bair. Tipper dtilt imo is the only one with unique uses.

 

[WedginatorX]

Tesh, you do have a point. But you could have made it earlier without making insults, like goggles.

 

[Exceladon City]

@ oreo, I'm just asking what kind of damage dtilt combos are putting in. I've never seen anyone get hit by more than 4-5 dtilts consecutively. Which is the same damage as upthrow x2 or upthrow to uptilt/bair. Tipper dtilt imo is the only one with unique uses.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aU4rwqi0ppY
That should answer your question.

I prefer to grab after 2-3 inside dtilts.

 

[Tesh]

I critique your work, and its all for Da KID.

 

[WedginatorX]

I believe your "overly basic" post is the most helpful thing you've said about this so far lmao. I'm gonna take out my notebook and start jotting some of tthis down.

 

[Tesh]

My game winning strategy is usually to camp until my opponent trips, then I take the lead and camp some more.

 

[WedginatorX]

I see. Tell me more oh great and wonderful TeshboSempai

 

[Tesh]

I run from people, and then when they don't expect it, I approach and dash grab.

 

[WedginatorX]

But that's what I do. It didn't work for me, but obviously you do it better, all-knowing Tesh7D.

 

[Kuraudo]

Camping is for ****ies. Speedrun that match like a boss.

 

[Exceladon City]

Camping is for ****ies. Speedrun that match like a boss.

I wonder how one would describe my playstyle?

Spoiler

inb4bad.

 

[WedginatorX]

I almost wrote it, too, before I saw what was blocked out with the black.

 

[Kuraudo]

I'm gonna upload some recent matches soon of my Sonic, but not before I upload a Dolphin Slash Cancel video for KillLock. Just dunno whether to do it tonight or right after work tomorrow...

Most of the vids will be of me and KillLock, so expect a lot of Sonic vs. Marth and whatever. I also use Fox and Snake and whatever. lol though those don't count.

 

[Kinzer]

NOOO no pika vs sonic goodness? for shame.

I really should start caring more about this game again and get myself recorded.

... Alright, challenge accepted.

 

[Tesh]

I'm a pacifist. Why be more violent than you have to.

 

[Kinzer]

Err, what's that even in response to?

 

[Kuraudo]

My speedrunning like a boss during a match thing, I guess.

 

[~TBS~]

Camping is for ****ies. Speedrun that match like a boss.

Excuse me?

I wonder how one would describe my playstyle?

Spoiler

inb4bad.

Excelerating.

I'm gonna upload some recent matches soon of my Sonic, but not before I upload a Dolphin Slash Cancel video for KillLock. Just dunno whether to do it tonight or right after work tomorrow...

Most of the vids will be of me and KillLock, so expect a lot of Sonic vs. Marth and whatever. I also use Fox and Snake and whatever. lol though those don't count.

Marth is actually someone i have trouble with...love to see how you get around his stuff. BAM also helped me out too...fsmash shenanigans

I really should start caring more about this game again and get myself recorded.

... Alright, challenge accepted.

Exactly how I feel right now.

My speedrunning like a boss during a match thing, I guess.

@_____________@ Link to

Speedrun.

 

[B.A.M.]

i would put it this way Wedge. Understand that to approach that distance with shield is absolutely terrible for us. we have nothing out of shield that is fast enough to do anything. You automatically limit the majority of your offensive options in that manner. Sometimes in scenarios such as those i will pivot SDSC so i can at least bair OoS and use sh uair. However the best thing i would say if you want to get into that particular range, you are better off walking into it or just screech stopping. My honest opinion though is thats a terrible area for sonic to be in. 2 1/2 DKs away is best in my opinion and walking in and out of that range spacing ftilts and using DDP mixups with SDSC are good. when you are fighting falco i believe that being mid range is the best. Why? because you can react to everything he does while walking in and out of that range. side b? shield. he dash forward? shield. he walks forward? you walk backwards or space bairs. usually what ull see from a falco though in that mid range is a SHDL, in which you could walk up and ftilt under the second laser or dash attack which due to falcos fall speed aids us in getting follow ups afterwards.

if you are going to go in, you need to get as close as possible so that you can grab or use jab, cross up or something. we cant compete with virtually the majority of the cast in tilt range. our strong suit as a character comes in the fact that we can punish and approach from outside tilt range to cqc very quickly. use that to your advantage. I dont know if you've noticed that already or not. the only thing we have in that tilt range is bair usage really.

even ftilt really shines only when you realize aside from follow ups its initial usage is to stuff dash approaches and jump ins. And to stuff those and be able to through these moves out somewhat safely you have to be in sonics ideal range. Watch some of _X_ vids and watch some of Espys. You'll notice Espy loves to stay up close or at that mid range spacing i was telling you about so that he can keep pressure. _X_ likes to SDSC around that range so he can bait ppl and punish.

Ever since I picked up brawl I always wanted to figure out characters ideal spacing. Marths is a given with his tipper range, Falco has his long range and really close range. We are brilliant when it comes to mid range. its where it becomes hard to react to things like spin dashes, our approach mixups and baits. etc. but you have to remember; you gotta be in or out. otherwise we get wrecked.

Now that I think about it, thats probably why we thought Marth used to destroy us. It just so happens our dead zone is his tipper spacing. How funny.

Sorry about the tangent Wedge (Kinzer moment). Basically i think you need to work on the approach spacing and understand at mid range we have a luxury of not committing. However once you step in closer a bit closer our options become severely limited. Also like i was saying before; shield with a purpose. If you make a mistake and you find yourself in this bad range, you can roll back or jump OoS backwards to reset your positioning. remember those things so you dont get scared and just sit in shield.


Yeah i have that grabbing too early habit when i stop playing for a bit as well wedge. Gotta remember to wait for the shield contact then grab. and i hope you arent shield dash grabbing as that could be an issue if you arent skid grabbing. I usually deal with spotdodge with nair, sh ff bair, or dsmash. I think fairing works too.I used to think holding jab is good but if they buffer grab out of the spotdodge there are times you'll miss the jab and theyll grab you. so use that one with caution.

Oh and one last thing. fsmashing falco out of side b is good and all but i think using usmash or spin charge is the best in terms of getting falco out of those moves. spin charge and usmash net you an easy punish due to RCO lag ( see Espy vs DEHF MLG) so you might wanna be wary of that. of course attempting to get his jump or stop side b before it comes out are all options you want to explore vs Falco.

thats all i can think of right now. Im tired as heck. Hope this helps a bit.

 

[Kuraudo]

Excuse me?

LOL! I knew that'd get you.

Marth is actually someone i have trouble with...love to see how you get around his stuff. BAM also helped me out too...fsmash shenanigans

You'll see it a lot from my matches, and though FSmash is good and all? FAir is your ultimate tool against Marth, hands down.

@_____________@ Link to

Speedrun.

Link to "speedrun" coming tomorrow or whatever when I get around to recording my replays.