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Luxord

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Akuma from SF2 would like to speak with you
you little...argh
beat me to it haha
@overswarm - he didn't win everything because the akuma wasn't good enough. If executed perfectly you actually can't win because air-fireball would make you have to block and enough time to do it over and over without punish. There was no lag time for akuma essentially and it would be a chip time-out with repeated air-fireballs

Where's your data on HD Remix? If Akuma was unbeatable, he must have taken 100% of the money spots unless there weren't that many Akuma players.
Still required perfect execution.


And ANYONE saying infinites are cheap look at El Fuerte in EVERY version of Super Street Fighter Four - he has an infinite in every version (including AE, PAL, and JPN versions). It's ridiculously hard to execute thus not an issue because El Fuertes have yet to take a major. The SAME thing applies to MK, perfect planking is not easy at all (to be perfectly invincible you need exact framing [excuse my lack of knowledge if there is a multi-frame window, though I do know it's not that big])

just my 2 cents i guess
 

MegaRobMan

Smash Hero
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Also, don't ****ing double post brawl kids. It's not hard to read and understand forum rules.

I also like how everyone that doesn't like Brawl is labeled as a troll, do you guys pay attention to your own game?
Sorry, but it's a learned habit from some of the Nebraska melee players.

I think the point is that he isn't trolling and is telling a lot of truths that are hard to swallow depending on where you are sitting.

Edit: lol @ coming into thread and defending :sheikmelee: players.
 
Joined
Mar 15, 2008
Messages
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*cough*

The logical implications of 'unrestricted play' includes items. For some reason half of pro-ban always stops at IDC and lgl and conveniently ignore the full conclusions from their own reasoning >_>. The other half admit items shouldve been in competitive play...but still ignore the implications. Then theres an extremely slim portion that actually try to argue the contradiction that its ok to limit items but not MK with thus far poor reasoning, massive amounts of theorycraft, and little proof.
We stop at IDC and LGL because we're talking about unrestricted Metaknight, not unrestricted Brawl. Two different things lol.

I'm totally down for items play and all things legal, thing is that I'm simply talking about Metaknight in the competitive setting that everyone is familiar with.
 

Strong Badam

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The problem there is that some people believe that the restrictions on MK are not necessary if items aren't restricted, which is a decent enough argument. The notion that MK should be banned due to the supposedly necessary restrictions on MK is not justified, as their necessity is caused by other restrictions.
 
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If that's the case, when why is it okay for us to ban so many stages?

A lot of stages can be fixed if we were to add items, but without items, people justify the stage ban by saying "oh, but walk-offs" or "oh, but camping", when the necessity to ban those stages are caused by other restrictions.
 

#HBC | Ryker

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My question is why this guy isn't arguing to legalize Akuma with restrictions rather than banning the character since it's such a crime.

Seriously Street Fighter kiddies, you're just mad because Akuma players are taking all your money.
 

Cassio

Smash Master
Joined
Jul 1, 2011
Messages
3,185
If that's the case, when why is it okay for us to ban so many stages?

A lot of stages can be fixed if we were to add items, but without items, people justify the stage ban by saying "oh, but walk-offs" or "oh, but camping", when the necessity to ban those stages are caused by other restrictions.
Its not. Theres already many stages that are questionably banned even without items, and I agree items would fix many others. TBH I agree with overswarm, theres a ton of stages that would actually help characters in their MK MU.
Actually thats part of why I think the last stagelist was BS, basically every stage was banned except for two of the best ones for MK (Brinstar and Delfino) except for maybe like, hanenbow. It just seemed so arbitrary...

I just find that logical consistency is a lost cause by the time you get to "the competitive setting everyone is familiar with". Youve already removed items and gutted the stagelist, so at that point banning MK, adding lgls, using % as a victory condition, etc. all come down to preference. Its also why Ive never really been against people who wanted to ban MK and felt sympathy for those who did, I only disliked attempts to create a blanket ban.
 

Overswarm

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Messages
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I'd be interested in seeing a Meta Knight player attempt to plank with a percent lead while Food was spawning onstage.
We recorded that data too. Small help. Works when someone's like "lol 1% lead", but it could take up to two minutes to regain health from a 50% deficit on low. We tried the various settings and really none of them stopped it at its core. Plus if MK just got a stock lead, it was over.

It's more MK than planking itself though. Despite people's claim that planking is broken, even MK's planking hasn't ever really done too much in tournament; we've only had one tournament where planking was a huge aspect of someone winning throughout the tournament, and that was pretty early on.

SB said:
The problem there is that some people believe that the restrictions on MK are not necessary if items aren't restricted, which is a decent enough argument. The notion that MK should be banned due to the supposedly necessary restrictions on MK is not justified, as their necessity is caused by other restrictions.
I'd love items tournaments to show up again and they're fun when we play in them and are still pretty skillful (assuming the right rules; no final smashes...). Catching thrown items with air dodge and aerials, doing an aerial instant-throw to throw that turtle shell back and forth? Pretty cool. More importantly, it gives characters with really low KO potential that are MEANT to kill with items a fighting chance, and gives characters that aren't meant to chase, like Bowser, the ability to fight ranged.

Unfortunately, the item spawning system is borked in Brawl. Items seemingly spawn closer to the losing player, meaning there is a kind of rubber-band effect. More importantly, due to aerials automatically picking up items if timed properly, we've seen characters actually just straight up do an aerial, item spawns as the aerial starts, and then the player picks it up mid swing. We can get rid of the items that do the craziest stuff, but the end of it is that item spawns are deliberately meant to spawn for the losing player and the argument of "it is about stage control" kinda falls apart when you can pick up items with inputs before they spawn.
 

Cassio

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50% deficit is very significant, especially in regards to a game where planking is prevalent, lol.

Experience and testing indicate that items do not spawn closer to the loser, although Ive heard the rumor before. This is something Im curious to know more about though so Ill keep testing, we might get some greater clarity from those who've dissected the games code though.
 

Overswarm

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50% deficit is very significant, especially in regards to a game where planking is prevalent, lol.
You can get that from one D3 grab, one early MK combo, etc., etc. It's really not too uncommon so we can't really view it as "don't get behind by 50%!"

The biggest thing with the food is that it didn't actually stop the problem people had. Planking never actually WON anything. It wasn't as good as people make it out to be. What it did do was make people go "ugh, this is boring", and staying on stage grabbing food is in the same vein.

Experience and testing indicate that items do not spawn closer to the loser, although Ive heard the rumor before. This is something Im curious to know more about though so Ill keep testing, we might get some greater clarity from those who've dissected the games code though.
Yeah. There's just never really been enough interest to really figure it out. I mean, you find out items are worthwhile and make the game 100x better, more competitive, and helps even out matchups. What then? Most people wouldn't want it because it hurts the status quo.
 

Cassio

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lol, yeah overswarm I more or less agree with both those points.

Sometimes I wish I had the desire to advertise a brawl tournament outside the existing community and just have the most random ruleset. Ive seen some people do this locally before and pull in good numbers since pretty much everyone owns brawl.
 

Dr. Tuen

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I'm assuming you mean that it affects the status quo while being competitive in spirit right?

Tuen, I see you. Any news?
Oh hi! I just woke up. Ahh... there were holes in Overswarm's analysis. But it's going to take considerable work to patch it up. I have to go through approximately 1000 matches by hand and mark 1st games, and subsequent games. All subsequent games need to have the counterpicking player marked. It'll be a day or two from now.

Overswarm - A clear definition of how you reached those numbers would be great. I don't have any idea how you got that 0.20 ish figure for smashville (MK) and 0.25 ish figure for frigate (MK again). I'm crunching win percentages right now and getting a similar story, but significantly different numbers.

Sample calculations or axis labels (both axis) would help the clarity of your presentation a lot too. The purpose of each graph becomes more apparent when you do counterpick percents and such, since that's a bit easier to grasp without explanation.
 

Overswarm

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I don't have all the data any more, nor do I have the processes written out; I just have random screenshots left. :\

Each of the things I did was a result of something someone said in the BBR, but I don't have access to those posts anymore so can't really check up on it.

The most contemporary data is held by John I think.

Regardless, I'm done with the data analysis stuff for a long while, at least for banning MK. He's gone as far as I'm concerned.
 

Dre89

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With food, I always thought it may be unfair to eat when you've knocked your opponent away or are waiting for them to respawn.

People might start running away just to get food.

:phone:
 

AlphaZealot

Former Smashboards Owner
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The Good Doctor said:
When HD Remix came out, Akuma won everything for 6 months then got banned, and that was with a completely nerfed version of the original.
Oh, so the data doesn't exist because the SF2T is to old...or possibly because it never existed in the first place.

But HDR is newer, in fact, more new than Brawl is. Is there any data recordings so we can see this 'threshold' of where to ban a character for 'breaking the game'?
 

Overswarm

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wUP6OAywFFQ&feature=player_detailpage#t=164s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ztZurroGzoM

NEC9 tournament results:

1 Damdai (Akuma) 4-1 grandfinals
2 Justin W ) (Sagat,Ryu)
3 Kyle ( Honda, Balrog)
4 Biran (Claw)
5 Julian (Claw)
6 Paul Wall (Dictator)
7 Nohoho (Blanka)
7 Ehonda (Ehonda)
9 Shag (random, blarog)
10 DSP ( Deejay, Akuma ...)
11 Jeron (chun)
11 Deep thoughts ( ?Ken, ...)
13 D Doyle ( Ryu)
14 Keith ( guile)
14 Zorin (claw)
14 Brandon (??)
17 gb ursine (??)
17 Diaper bomb (Discator, ?Gief)
17 GPL ( akuma, Dict?)
17 Jollies ( ?Boxer?)
17 Renegade (?Boxer?)
17 Josh B (Boxer ,sagat)
17 Jet/Phi ( Claw,?)
17 Sanford (Ryu)
25 Boleslaw ( Blanka)
25 Josh Wong (?)
25 Adam B(?)
25 Cent208 (akuma)
25 Ralph (?)
25 Deviljin01 (blanka)
25 Mizuki (?)
25 Rickson (?)
$1 single elim tournament with multiple entries allowed the night before:
Code:
Single Elim
Single Match
Character Registered and Locked
1$ entry
Multiple Entries allowed

Overall a fun tourney, but several prominent players had to be DQ'd b/c they didn't show up until late the next day. 

1: Akuma- DSP
2: Dee Jay-DSP
3: Sagat- JWong
3: Honda- Koop
5: Balrog-Robin
5: Vega-DS
5: Ken- Keith
5: Dee Jay- D'NYC3
9: Dee Jay-Ralph
9: Ryu-DS
9: Balrog-Jollies
9: Sagat-Jeron (DQ'd Day 2)
9: Ryu- Justin Wong
9: Ken-Caliagent (DQ'd Day 2)
9: Balrog-Zoob
9: Vega-Julien (DQ'd Day 2)
17: Blanka-Keith
17: Akuma- matt frank
17: Chun Li - GBRU
17: T. Hawk- mizuki
17: Cammy- BBHood
17: T. Hawk - matt frank
17: Dee Jay-Comeback
17: Ryu-BBHood
17: Chun Li- Xero
17: Gief-Matt frank
17: Sagat-Joe i l o v e u
17: Sagat-Zoob
17: Zangief-Caliagent
17: Guile-Keith (DQ'd Day 2)
17: Honda-Comeback
17: Bison-Jeron
33: Bison-Zorn
33: Blanka- Xero
33: Thawk-Julien
33: Zangief-Rich
33: Sagat Josh
33: Bison-Koop
33: Akuma- Keith
33: Fei Long- Jaguar
33: Blanka-Red
33: Ken- XIE
33: Zangief- Dwayne V
33: Dee Jay-Zoob
33: Blanka- Deviljin
33: Cammy-Forte
33: T Hawk-Keith
33: Balrog-PVFP
33: Ryu-Jollies
33: Guile- H-F Blade
33: Chun Li - Joe O
33: Ryu- Hold Dat
33: Balrog-Josh
33: Balrog-Comeback
33: Akuma- grizzly
33: Vega-PVFP
33: Honda- Zorn
33: Bison- BBHood
33: Cammy-Shag (DQ'd Day 2)
33: Ryu- Mizuki
33: Chun-Robin
33: Fei Long-Cless
33: Ryu-Keith
33: Chun-Ralph
65: Honda-Anti Shoto
65: Vega-Jeron
65: Balrog- BBHood
65: Chun-kayin
65: Guile-Plural
65: Sagat-GPL
65: Fei Long-Caliagent
65: Zangief-Rogue yoshi
65: Ryu- Ian
65: Sagat- Nestor
65: Guile-Zoob
65: Fei Long-Flashfire
65: Ken- Zorn
65: Gief- Majors
65: T Hawk- Robin
65: Guile-Red
65: Ryu-Caliagent
65: Vega-GPL
65: Ken-Cless
65: Guile-Skisonic
65: Ken-Zoob
65: Ken- Mr Quotes
65: T Hawk-Zorn
65: Chun LI-BB Hood
65: Guile-Robin
65: Cammy-Jensel
65: bison- b stag
65: Fei Long- Deep Thoughts
65: Guile-Cless
65: Sagat- b stag
65: Sagat-Jaguar
65: Balrog-Serge
65: Chun- Jollies
65: Balrog-Herve
65: DeeJay-Julien
65: Ken- Deep Thoughts
65: Fei Long-Ian
65: Chun li-Dippy
65: Sagat- Som De
65: Ken-Forte
65: Ryu- Steve H
65: Vega- Zorn
This was in December of 2008, Akuma was announced to be banned at EVO's HD Remix event in March of 2009 if I recall correctly.

Statement by Seth Killian in January of 2009:

Seth: Akuma can certainly be a pain, but Capcom doesn't have any official position on his "brokenness." Truly this is better decided by the players and tournament results than some kind of Capcom statement, right? :)

There has been some griping online, but nothing that firmly establishes him as overpowered. We're tracking what happens at the next big tournaments and can look at those results going forward.
I'm not sure if this is true, someone would have to test, but:

blitzfu on shoryuken.com said:
Is that really reason enough to ban him? I don't know about other Ryu and Ken players, but I would definitely stick with them even if a tournament simply banned Akuma's Air Hadoken. Remix Akuma's damage penalty is much greater than Classic Akuma's damage penalty. I tested this out, and he can be killed from perfect by Ryu's 9 hit Super combo. Crossup Roundhouse on a crouching Akuma, Rushing Fierce, cr Fierce, Super.
Don't know enough tournaments to get cold hard data, but they were talking about banning Akuma and Akuma being broken while the results posted here were happening. In other words, they started talking about banning Akuma the same way
people talked about banning D3's chain grab.

TL;DR, MK would be banned by Akuma standards faster than Smash standards. Traditional fighting game players are just used to the game being given to them on a silver platter instead of working at it -_-;;
 

danieljosebatista

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I play Melee, but let me just ask. Why in the world did the Brawl community decide that it needed a rule set committee to begin with? I mean, why not just have a recommended rule set from the BBR used at most nationals and then leave it up to the TO?

Also, I've never understood this whole banning MK business.
 

Overswarm

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There are also multiple HD Remix finals videos on youtube with Akuma winning.
There are many more Super Smash Brothers Brawl finals videos on youtube with Meta Knight winning. Against another Meta Knight, even.

I'm not saying Akuma isn't the best, he clearly is. Saying he needs to be banned because Akuma mains are talking all of your money though, is just hilarious to me. How fair is that to the people that dedicated themselves to said character?

Being the best character doesn't make him banworthy, making the game unplayable would! From all the tournament results I see, it looks like Akuma just gives top players an edge against other top players, not an instant win. Other Akuma players weren't able to do so well.
 

The Good Doctor

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There are many more Super Smash Brothers Brawl finals videos on youtube with Meta Knight winning. Against another Meta Knight, even.

I'm not saying Akuma isn't the best, he clearly is. Saying he needs to be banned because Akuma mains are talking all of your money though, is just hilarious to me. How fair is that to the people that dedicated themselves to said character?

Being the best character doesn't make him banworthy, making the game unplayable would! From all the tournament results I see, it looks like Akuma just gives top players an edge against other top players, not an instant win. Other Akuma players weren't able to do so well.
Yeah, nice try. I'm feel stupid for coming in hear and trying to argue with you, Mr.Stats. It's like, you try to troll because you are completely unreasonable and try to attempt at being a smart ***.

Go play other fighting games and understand how they control the rules for their games. The way you guys police Brawl is a complete joke, and then going on and banning a whole character that wasn't even 90% dominating your metagame should be treated with laughter. I used Akuma from ST2 as an example of a character that has basically no reasonable way of defeat when played right. From what I hear, Metaknights lost quite often, while that was not the case with Akuma.

Just look at ubers in Pokemon, if you know anything about banned choices in games. People that take that game seriously would want to speak to you about pokemon that break the game and are banned as a result. Metaknight is completely reasonable to deal with, your just so in the wrong.

/unsubscribed
 

Espy Rose

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I wish we could hit a giant reset button and have all items in Brawl and stuff like that.
Items tournaments sound amazing.

I blame Melee's standards, and how they transitioned unopposed into Brawl's rules. :p

Whatever the case, this cannot happen again in Smash 4. :applejack:
 

Overswarm

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Go play other fighting games and understand how they control the rules for their games. The way you guys police Brawl is a complete joke, and then going on and banning a whole character that wasn't even 90% dominating your metagame should be treated with laughter. I used Akuma from ST2 as an example of a character that has basically no reasonable way of defeat when played right. From what I hear, Metaknights lost quite often, while that was not the case with Akuma.
Do you have any evidence to back that up? Because I'd put $100 down flat that said Akuma didn't dominate 90% of the meta game because simple google search showed a whopping three Akuma players at NEC9, and that tournament had Justin Wong in attendance. It wasn't some piddly nothing tournament.
 

Overswarm

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I wish we could hit a giant reset button and have all items in Brawl and stuff like that.
Items tournaments sound amazing.

I blame Melee's standards, and how they transitioned unopposed into Brawl's rules. :p

Whatever the case, this cannot happen again in Smash 4. :applejack:
Agreed. I plan to take.... steps, to prevent that. Depending on what comes up in how its made, anyway.

If it's anything like Brawl, there's going to be some serious data mining going on.
 

danieljosebatista

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lmao item tournaments are you serious? Look items are inherently bull**** for tournament because the point of tournament is to pit players against each other 1 v 1 and test player skill. If random items like ****ing smash balls and hammers are flying around how can player skill be tested? It becomes highly about luck when items like these are in the game.
 
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Its not. Theres already many stages that are questionably banned even without items, and I agree items would fix many others. TBH I agree with overswarm, theres a ton of stages that would actually help characters in their MK MU.
Actually thats part of why I think the last stagelist was BS, basically every stage was banned except for two of the best ones for MK (Brinstar and Delfino) except for maybe like, hanenbow. It just seemed so arbitrary...

I just find that logical consistency is a lost cause by the time you get to "the competitive setting everyone is familiar with". Youve already removed items and gutted the stagelist, so at that point banning MK, adding lgls, using % as a victory condition, etc. all come down to preference. Its also why Ive never really been against people who wanted to ban MK and felt sympathy for those who did, I only disliked attempts to create a blanket ban.
The difference would be that banning things would be one thing, adding sketchy band-aid fixes to problems would be another. We've gone crazy gutting the game through bans, so continuing on wouldn't be breaking any double standards or opening pandora's box, but applying sketchy, outside band-aid fixes is territory that is nearly unexplored by us, and is best if we don't explore it any further (unless you want to discuss Punch Time for another couple of years or so). Ignoring the fact that they're outside rules, my biggest gripe with them is that they're non-functional outside rules, so it's not even worth having them on.

I understand what you mean about doing things by preference, but I think this is different. Believe it or not, I'm actually anti-ban in my own scene, lol.


Yeah, nice try. I'm feel stupid for coming in hear and trying to argue with you, Mr.Stats. It's like, you try to troll because you are completely unreasonable and try to attempt at being a smart ***.

Go play other fighting games and understand how they control the rules for their games. The way you guys police Brawl is a complete joke, and then going on and banning a whole character that wasn't even 90% dominating your metagame should be treated with laughter. I used Akuma from ST2 as an example of a character that has basically no reasonable way of defeat when played right. From what I hear, Metaknights lost quite often, while that was not the case with Akuma.

Just look at ubers in Pokemon, if you know anything about banned choices in games. People that take that game seriously would want to speak to you about pokemon that break the game and are banned as a result. Metaknight is completely reasonable to deal with, your just so in the wrong.

/unsubscribed
Something worth noting is that even though Metaknight wasn't 90% dominating the metagame, the number was actually increasing. If trends were to continue the way they were, then he would've made it there eventually.

Also, that's restricted Meta, he's not that special.
 

Overswarm

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lmao item tournaments are you serious? Look items are inherently bull**** for tournament because the point of tournament is to pit players against each other 1 v 1 and test player skill. If random items like ****ing smash balls and hammers are flying around how can player skill be tested? It becomes highly about luck when items like these are in the game.
What?

We did test items, but it was limited testing and over a long period of time. I tested custom stages too. We don't use either of those in regular tournament play, but now we have reasons more than "this sucks".

Smash is designed with item play in mind, so it may be important to, ya know, test items with each iteration. The items in Brawl are pretty tame compared to Melee's items once you whittle down the ridiculous ones (golden hammer, star, pokeballs, etc.). Have you seen how powerful green shells are in Melee? Ridiculous.
 

Omni

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I like data gathering and all.

But I feel like too many people use it to come to conclusions that can't be decided from a statistical standpoint. There isn't "evidence" that proves things like stages being allowed or Meta Knight being banned. It's simply a collection of factual information. It's being used as a crutch when it comes to arguments.

Essentially, two people can look at the same results and have two different opinions on the subject. You can't say, "Meta Knight is used "X"% of the time in tournament... clearly the data points to the ideal that he needs to be banned!" because everyone has different thresholds.
 

#HBC | Ryker

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You know, I'd think that if a fair majority thought it was past that threshold, then a ban may be warranted, but then again, I might just be antagonizing Omni.
 

danieljosebatista

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Look, ANY smash game that aims to be competitive needs to have items off. I know there have been some item tournaments, but come on, you all know what I'm saying is true. There's little point in actually learning how to play the game competitively when there's bats and hammers flying around. We don't even have to go that far it can be any item, the point is you now have access to a tool your opponent does not which can drastically change the game. Why? Just why lol. ****, before I played ANY smash game at a competitive level, my group of friends universally agreed that it was BS and took away from any real skill in the game. This went for 64, melee, and brawl

@Overswarm, Smash IS designed with item play in mind, but it's also not designed to be played competitively. Items were crafted around a game of 4 player mayhem, not 1 v 1 battles.
 

Overswarm

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The issue is more that Omni thinks that someone's opinion should be weighted as much as someone else's knowledge.

Go look up the previous anti-ban arguments from when they were first publicly posted; they consisted of "you have no proof" and "nuh uh".

We got proof, and completely shut down everyone one of their arguments with data in round 2.

The problem is, those weren't their arguments. Its just what they said. They weren't interested in right, or wrong, or competition or not. They just knew they wanted MK legal no matter what, so the only reason they'd want something different is... if they just wanted something different.
 
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