The URC has been disbanded.

[Overswarm]

Oh, and for those that want to play the 2012 game:

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=317124

There's John's thread on 2012.

 

[Overswarm]

I'm sure its possible, but the difference is that Akuma had moves that no other character could remotely handle, while Metaknight doesn't.

Well, he does. We just banned them. Some of them. MK's u-air is still pretty boss.

 

[The Good Doctor]

Well, he does. We just banned them. Some of them. MK's u-air is still pretty boss.

You banned glitches, not moves.
If you could say something around the lines that I can pick up Metaknight and beat people in a week I might agree.

You guys are just butt hurt that your game was made intentionally bad for competitive play.

From Shoryuken Wiki

"Akuma has better projectiles than the rest of the cast, goes through other characters projectiles with his Tatsus and Teleports, controls distance better with his air Hadouken, is completely invulnerable to cross-ups due to invulnerable Tatsus and never dizzies (it looks like he gets dizzy, but Akuma recovers instantly, effectively saving him from longer comboes and juggles and that's it). He is much stronger than other characters and should not be used for competitive play. "

Yeah, that's what I call ban worthy.

 

[Overswarm]

You banned glitches, not moves.
If you could say something around the lines that I can pick up Metaknight and beat people in a week I might agree.

You guys are just butt hurt that your game was made intentionally bad for competitive play.

It's not a glitch any more than Sheik's up+b stall is.

And yeah, you could beat non-MKs in a week of picking up MK if you have a smash background I'd say. :B

 

[Bizkit047]

I'm sure its possible, but the difference is that Akuma had moves that no other character could remotely handle, while Metaknight doesn't.

No character can handle IDC. No character can handle perfect ledge planking. Most characters can't handle proper nado usage. I'm not sure where you're going with this. You responded to someone saying that no character/player is technically unbeatable by comparing his statement to Akuma, which wasn't even accurate at all.

 

[Bizkit047]

That's never really been the case, nor has it been for anything smash has banned in the past. We banned items, but playing with items still result in consistent results; we've checked. We ban stages, but playing with those stages still result in consistent results there too; we checked on that for years.

I'm not sure I believe that. What tourney data did you gather that suggests this?

 

[Cassio]

There's ALWAYS room for more data. But when it comes to making decisions, current data is always king. You've gotta keep that as the status quo; you can't say "well, the data says this, so I agree with it... except for this one thing, cuz it's dumb", because that defeats the purpose.

I would love for the next smash to be started with some serious data mining efforts

True, although more to the point I mean numbers cant always tell you everything. And good analysis is important.

For instance, in the ongoing conversation at the moment showing MKs monetary dominance, simply presenting the charts is a bit misleading. When you consider that most tournaments make payouts at 60/30/10, it makes more sense that the consensus best character would receive close to 60% while those outside top tier or even within top tier recieve a pittance.

I'm not sure I believe that. What tourney data did you gather that suggests this?

Ive heard allbrawl produces consistent results. However it was pretty silly that they were banned before they were tested, bad decision on the early community's part.

 

[The Good Doctor]

No character can handle IDC. No character can handle perfect ledge planking. Most characters can't handle proper nado usage. I'm not sure where you're going with this. You responded to someone saying that no character/player is technically unbeatable by comparing his statement to Akuma, which wasn't even accurate at all.

Wow, Brawl kids need to think a bit harder before they post. Akuma was SO good in ST2 that in HD Remix they nerfed him HARD, and he is STILL banned. Most characters in Melee can't handle Sheik, yet no one calls for her ban. Tiers aren't a hard concept kiddies.

I'm not saying Metaknight isn't the best, he clearly is. Saying he needs to be banned because Metaknight mains are talking all of your money though, is just hilarious to me. How fair is that to the people that dedicated themselves to said character?

Spoiler

No Johns Brawl Kids

Also, don't ****ing double post brawl kids. It's not hard to read and understand forum rules.

 

[Bizkit047]

Im fairly certain pika could.

I would prefer to see a video exploring it than theorize that Pikachu might be able to handle it. But that's a bit of a stretch, because no one seems to care about exploring ledge mechanics with planking and such.

Im fairly certain Ive heard allbrawl produces consistent results. However it was pretty silly that they were banned before they were tested, bad decision on the early communities part.

I wouldn't compare AllBrawl to regular item matches. AllBrawl is random stages & characters with items. AllBrawl can be consistent, due to how well the people who place high do with a majority of the cast, as opposed to people playing their mains with items on a regular stage list.

 

[Hylian]

No one can even perfect plank lmao I don't know why that is being brought up. The very best mks in the world still lose to other characters on a consistent basis, especially looking at japan who showed us our mks really aren't as great as we thought they were. There has also never been an instance in the history of brawl where someone randomly picked up mk and started beating top players when they couldn't get close before. Pocket mks are the easiest thing to beat and switching to mk makes tournaments harder in general, he's really hard to get good with.

 

[Bizkit047]

Wow, Brawl kids need to think a bit harder before they post. Akuma was SO good in ST2 that in HD Remix they nerfed him HARD, and he is STILL banned. Most characters in Melee can't handle Sheik, yet no one calls for her ban. Tiers aren't a hard concept kiddies.

Ah, so you get called out on a stupid post, and resort to "Brawl kiddies" as your retort. Pretty sad. I think you should re-read my post so you can comprehend it better, since I never stated Akuma wasn't better than MK. Not quite sure what your tiers statement has to do with anything, because both MK and Akuma are in their own tiers, while Sheik is not. I don't think you know what you're referencing, to be quite honest.

I'm not saying Metaknight isn't the best, he clearly is. Saying he needs to be banned because Metaknight mains are talking all of your money though, is just hilarious to me.

I don't think anyone suggested that be the sole reason he should be banned. Otherwise I'd argue Snake in New England should be banned, because Snakes always place in top spots and make money.

How fair is that to the people that dedicated themselves to said character?

Irrelevant. Or you could throw out "How is it fair to people who dedicated themselves to Akuma that he got banned".

 

[Cassio]

Perhaps, I still think it was silly to ban items before they were properly tested though, but at this point its hard to turn back.

Also Ive tested some stuff with pika vs planking, but it becomes a pointless conversation since few would care if only one other character can handle it. Heres some stuff though, with thread linked in the description:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VjmuTs6Qc6Q
the gist of it is that pika has multiple ways of canceling QA on the ledge with some options selects.

A picture of pika from one frame before invincibility and a hitbox to the next grabbing the ledge:

Granted timing is important and it definitely takes more than just that, between jolts, thunder, quick ledge release, + MKs transcendant priority, poor mobility, poor priority on aerial shuttle loop, and pikas bair slicing through many moves like side B, its still a tough task given MKs very apparent strengths. Also I think pit does a better job of stopping pikas (specificallY) anti-planking because of his multihit uair + projectile.

Its also why pikachu is OP around the ledge, but not even ESAMs bothered to learn this stuff yet since he hates QA

 

[The Good Doctor]

Ah, so you get called out on a stupid post, and resort to "Brawl kiddies" as your retort. Pretty sad. I think you should re-read my post so you can comprehend it better, since I never stated Akuma wasn't better than MK. Not quite sure what your tiers statement has to do with anything, because both MK and Akuma are in their own tiers, while Sheik is not. I don't think you know what you're referencing, to be quite honest.



I don't think anyone suggested that be the sole reason he should be banned. Otherwise I'd argue Snake in New England should be banned, because Snakes always place in top spots and make money.



Irrelevant. Or you could throw out "How is it fair to people who dedicated themselves to Akuma that he got banned".

Sheik destroys like 80% of Melee's roster, that's why I brought her up. You guys can post whatever reasons you have, but the facts are that Metaknight doesn't break the game, and Metaknight mains take all of your money. Also Akuma BROKE THE GAME! He's not just "the best", Akuma literally makes the game unplayable for every other character.

 

[Bizkit047]

Sheik destroys like 80% of Melee's roster, that's why I brought her up. You guys can post whatever reasons you have, but the facts are that Metaknight doesn't break the game, and Metaknight mains take all of your money. Also Akuma BROKE THE GAME! He's not just "the best", Akuma literally makes the game unplayable for every other character.

MK would break the game if we did not place restrictions on him. Even with those restrictions, it's debatable if he still breaks the game to an extent (not an unbeatable extent, but still enough to cause too much disruption).

 

[The Good Doctor]

MK would break the game if we did not place restrictions on him. Even with those restrictions, it's debatable if he still breaks the game to an extent (not an unbeatable extent, but still enough to cause too much disruption).

Lmao, even before all of these "restrictions" I remember people beating those Metaknight mains with characters like Snake, Diddy, Falco. You have no idea what the term "break the game" means.

 

[AlphaZealot]

Lmao, even before all of these "restrictions" I remember people beating those Metaknight mains with characters like Snake, Diddy, Falco. You have no idea what the term "break the game" means

Aside from your verbal assertions, would you mind finding us the threshold of Akuma wins that occurred before they banned him? Similar to the plethara of data we have on MK, I'm sure that data must have existed with Akuma before such a serious decision was made. You know, just so we know where that line of 'breaking the game' is.

 

[-Ran]

Lmao, even before all of these "restrictions" I remember people beating those Metaknight mains with characters like Snake, Diddy, Falco. You have no idea what the term "break the game" means.

IDC lasted one tournament, and was only used in a few select matches during that tournament. It was found out about two weeks before FAST during the first summer of Brawl's release, and a video was released right before the event. It was immediately banned after FAST nearly universally, due to many players showing how effortlessly it could be done. Players were getting up to 2-3 minute up-time for the invincibility once they learned the tempo for it. With Planking, and the IDC, MK is pretty silly.

On the planking front, there were many, many high profile matches [many featuring Dphat ] that had better players losing just due to their inability to do anything to Meta Knight in his state. I remember numerous teams matches of Meta Knights grabbing the ledge over one hundred times to stock tank for their team mate, especially for a certain Lucario player.

 

[The Good Doctor]

Aside from your verbal assertions, would you mind finding us the threshold of Akuma wins that occurred before they banned him? Similar to the plethara of data we have on MK, I'm sure that data must have existed with Akuma before such a serious decision was made. You know, just so we know where that line of 'breaking the game' is.

It's kinda hard to find tournament data for a game that's been out as long as Street Fighter 2 Turbo has been out for. It's not just "widely accepted" though, it's just "accepted". There is a huge difference. When HD Remix came out, Akuma won everything for 6 months then got banned, and that was with a completely nerfed version of the original.

Ran
there is a difference, IDC clearly was not intentional. Infinite stall tactics like that are banned in Melee too.
*Peach Bomber Stall* *Jigglypuff Rising Pound Stall*

 

[Bizkit047]

Lmao, even before all of these "restrictions" I remember people beating those Metaknight mains with characters like Snake, Diddy, Falco. You have no idea what the term "break the game" means.

You may be referring to matches from around 2008. Things have changed. An MK can time out any character (other than himself) easily without restrictions. There is no way to beat it realistically. It would turn the game into "you must pick MK to beat MK." I don't know what matches you saw that suggest otherwise, but I'd imagine it was MK's abusing stalling incorrectly.

 

[WindMajor]

Lmao, even before all of these "restrictions" I remember people beating those Metaknight mains with characters like Snake, Diddy, Falco. You have no idea what the term "break the game" means.

I don't even know at what time period this could've possibly been at. 2008?

Are you aware that we're in the year 2012?

Looks like Bizkit and Ran beat me to the punch.

 

[Cassio]

Eh, heres my reasoning for why IDC ban/LGLs arent so bad

The reason I find the popular argument that "mk needs to be banned because we cater our ruleset to him" BS is because it was ruleset tampering to begin with that made him so powerful. A perfectly competitive version of brawl exists without powerful scrooging and and ledge abuse mechanics, yet people want to argue that making relatively minor adjustments like an lgl steps over the line after we basically nuked the stagelist and gutted a defining aspect of smash [items] for what boiled down to personal preference?

were a community that tampers with the ruleset. Thats just smash.

 

[-Ran]

Ran
there is a difference, IDC clearly was not intentional. Infinite stall tactics like that are banned in Melee too.
*Peach Bomber Stall* *Jigglypuff Rising Pound Stall*

It's a matter how much you want to stretch as to what was 'intentional' in Melee. IDC has a mechanic in it that by pressing your C stick up rapidly, you extend the range and time of your invincibility. This is something that could have very well have been intended by the developers, just as much as jumping out of shine, l-canceling, wave-dashing, or any of the other melee insanity. It could be as intended as Diddy's banana locks, Falco's and D3's Chain grabbing, ZSS's lack of a dimishing damage on her nair, wave bouncing, the ability for Snake to power-shield a stuck C4, and god knows how much else in the game that -is- legal.

You cannot speak of 'intentions' of a developer as criteria for banning a move, character, or technique. It all ultimately comes down to the competitive reality of the situation created in the metagame by its existence.

 

[The Good Doctor]

It's a matter how much you want to stretch as to what was 'intentional' in Melee. IDC has a mechanic in it that by pressing your C stick up rapidly, you extend the range and time of your invincibility. This is something that could have very well have been intended by the developers, just as much as jumping out of shine, l-canceling, wave-dashing, or any of the other melee insanity. It could be as intended as Diddy's banana locks, Falco's and D3's Chain grabbing, wave bouncing, the ability for Snake to power-shield a stuck C4, and god knows how much else in the game that -is- legal.

You cannot speak of 'intentions' of a developer as criteria for banning a move, character, or technique. It all ultimately comes down to the competitive reality of the situation created in the metagame by its existence.

Making a character invincible for an infinite amount of time would not be put into a fighting game, sorry. You lose the game.

 

[-Ran]

Making a character invincible for an infinite amount of time would not be put into a fighting game, sorry. You lose the game.

Making a character that could lock down every other character in the game would not be put into the game with one move [Akuma]. Making a character that could infinite three characters or chain grab two-thirds of the cast across any level, shouldn't be in the game [D3]. The list goes on. In those situations, those characters might as well -be- invincible. The reality is, they are in the game. As mentioned, we cannot judge the intentions of the developers, especially not in a game that was not designed for competitive play. We can only look at what we are given.

 

[The Good Doctor]

Making a character that could lock down every other character in the game would not be put into the game with one move [Akuma]. Making a character that could infinite three characters or chain grab two-thirds of the cast across any level, shouldn't be in the game [D3]. The list goes on. The reality is, they are in the game. As mentioned, we cannot judge the intentions of the developers, especially not in a game that was not designed for competitive play. We can only look at what we are given.

Akuma is a boss character, he was intentionally made to be broken. you lose again.

 

[-Ran]

Akuma is a boss character, he was intentionally made to be broken. you lose again.

And yet, he wasn't made to be a boss character in HD remix. Your trolling is rather hilarious, btw. It must suck to be out of your element.

 

[WindMajor]

Making a character invincible for an infinite amount of time would not be put into a fighting game, sorry. You lose the game.

Does this mean that Metaknight is broken for you yet?

 

[MR. K]

this doctor guy is a funny troll, i like how his own posts either contradict some of his last ones, or just flat out so stupid in their own right that they're easily torn to pieces by another person's in a single post.

please continue, I needed some laughs for the night after a stressful day at work.


more on topic;

I do still believe however that smash bros needs a universally accepted ruleset, regardless of whether you liked how the URC was handled, I just feel that It would be better to have a universal ruleset where everyone's on the same page, especially now since many tournaments don't feel that banning the masked bat is too taboo anymore.


does it need to be handled better then the URC? most definitely, but IMO it still needs to happen.

 

[Bizkit047]

Does this mean that Metaknight is broken for you yet?

ur just a brawl kid, no jojhns. akuma is super mega ultimate broken and mk isn't i saw sum diddy beat him in 2008 one match.

 

[The Good Doctor]

He wasn't designed as a boss character in remix, yet he was still found to be broken so they banned him. You guys speak as if Metaknight would never lose to another and it's just silly. Very, very silly. I'm all for banning tactics like IDC because well, it's infinitely protects him from harm. You guys are pretty much saying "MK is too good, no win can stop him. Whine whine whine."

If you don't like how your game is, find a new ****ing game. Hell play Project M. For all you do is ***** about Metaknight, and fail to see that being the best character doesn't make him banworthy, making the game unplayable would. Lets face it though, Brawl is already unplayable anyway.

I also like how everyone that doesn't like Brawl is labeled as a troll, do you guys pay attention to your own game?

 

[Bizkit047]

I also like how everyone that doesn't like Brawl is labeled as a troll, do you guys pay attention to your own game?

Do you pay attention to your own posts?

 

[Overswarm]

I'm not sure I believe that. What tourney data did you gather that suggests this?

We've played multiple items tournament series in the midwest as side tournaments; we get results that are overall consistent with the results in singles from the same tournament. You don't get complete randomness, but that's expected. What wasn't expected was getting nearly identical results.

Know what's even crazier?

TheKiest made an FFA series where you won 2 points for actually winning the FFA (last man standing) and won 1 point for getting the most kills (you can't win the kill point if you won the FFA). If there's a tie, no one wins points for kills.

Results have been consistent amongst his FFA tournaments with results in singles.

It's too small of a sample size for me to make a blanket statement, but given the amount of times we've done this and the eerie consistency of it I'd wager money on having similar results from singles to singles with items.

Some characters do fare slightly better though; Sonic and ROB both for sure.

 

[Overswarm]

Where's your data on HD Remix? If Akuma was unbeatable, he must have taken 100% of the money spots unless there weren't that many Akuma players.

 

[The Good Doctor]

Is that the new Braawl thing? "Where's yo data!'
Use google.

 

[-Ran]

Is that the new Braawl thing? "Where's yo data!'
Use google.

Since Brawl is a slower game, we actually have time to multitask while playing which allows us to gather and analyze data during matches. Due to this, we've learned to love data, and abhor statements that aren't backed by any.

 

[The Good Doctor]

Since Brawl is a slower game, we actually have time to multitask while playing which allows us to gather and analyze data during matches. Due to this, we've learned to love data, and abhor statements that aren't backed by any.

It's funny that you say that
ssbpd.com

 

[WindMajor]

He wasn't designed as a boss character in remix, yet he was still found to be broken so they banned him. You guys speak as if Metaknight would never lose to another and it's just silly. Very, very silly. I'm all for banning tactics like IDC because well, it's infinitely protects him from harm. You guys are pretty much saying "MK is too good, no win can stop him. Whine whine whine."

If you don't like how your game is, find a new ****ing game. Hell play Project M. For all you do is ***** about Metaknight, and fail to see that being the best character doesn't make him banworthy, making the game unplayable would. Lets face it though, Brawl is already unplayable anyway.

I also like how everyone that doesn't like Brawl is labeled as a troll, do you guys pay attention to your own game?

The point is that an unrestricted Metaknight is broken (and you admitted it), and because of that, we had to place restrictions on him just to put him on the same level as everybody else. If you knew anything about anything, then you would've known that both of the restrictions placed on Metaknight cannot be used because one cannot be enforced, and one is not discrete. The next logical step for treating the unrestricted Metaknight would be to ban the character as a whole, since nothing else can be done.

Do you pay attention to your own posts?

Or anyone else's posts for that matter? >_>

 

[Cassio]

The next logical step for treating the unrestricted Metaknight would be to ban the character as a whole, since nothing else can be done.

*cough*

The reason I find the popular argument that "mk needs to be banned because we cater our ruleset to him" BS is because it was ruleset tampering to begin with that made him so powerful. A perfectly competitive version of brawl exists without powerful scrooging and and ledge abuse mechanics, yet people want to argue that making relatively minor adjustments like an lgl steps over the line after we basically nuked the stagelist and gutted a defining aspect of smash [items] for what boiled down to personal preference?

The logical implications of 'unrestricted play' includes items. For some reason half of pro-ban always stops at IDC and lgl and conveniently ignore the full conclusions from their own reasoning >_>. The other half admit items shouldve been in competitive play...but still ignore the implications. Then theres an extremely slim portion that actually try to argue the contradiction that its ok to limit items but not MK with thus far poor reasoning, massive amounts of theorycraft, and little proof.

 

[Strong Badam]

I'd be interested in seeing a Meta Knight player attempt to plank with a percent lead while Food was spawning onstage.

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

But then stock lead.