The Unofficial Weekly Moveset Discussion Thread!!! This Week: D-Throw and U-Smash

[Falconv1.0]

...I'm just happy because I've been an apprentice for months. I don't judge people by their post counts, I just like the title.

That's what we commoners of SWF call being a massive tool.


^___________^

 

[nash123]

Falcons got it right .

 

[A1lion835]

That's what we commoners of SWF call being a massive tool.


^___________^

...or maybe I just like the sound of "Lord."

 

[Falconv1.0]

...or maybe I just like the sound of "Lord."

Thus making you a massive tool.

Ahaahah, I kid. Well, kinda.


Anyhoo, no one here has yet to change my mind about d tilt and it's supposed sexiness.

 

[A1lion835]

Thus making you a massive tool.

Ahaahah, I kid. Well, kinda.

>.>

I like the freaking sound of lord!

"Yes, m'lord." /Warcraft

Anyhoo, no one here has yet to change my mind about d tilt and it's supposed sexiness.

ZOMG LOWER THAN CROUCH!

 

[Asdioh]

Agreed on both points. Sadly, there is no Starshot CG. I tried... for a long time... on just about every legal stage that *might* make it possible...
If you find one you will be my hero though.

I was totally joking about that.

BUT now that you mention it, what about that tree on Pokemon Stadium (Melee)? The one that you can camp Final Cutters under?

o_O

Go ahead, name the match ups where this move really helps you, and tell me, how many of those match ups are characters that matter?

Captain Falc- oh.



Ok, Dtilt. Good move. Does like 5% damage, but you can usually hit with it twice if you hit the first time, for 9-10%. Yay. You can also usually hit with Ftilt after a Dtilt. It's mostly useful because you're short and hard to hit when you're using it. If it trips them, opponents will usually roll away from Kirby after the trip. So if you predict this, you can easily run after them and dashgrab. I did it a few times this weekend. Then I told one of my opponents "people usually roll away after the trip." Then the next time I tripped him with Dtilt, he did the getup attack and hit me lol. Sooo don't tell your opponents what you're thinking.

Dtilt->Fsmash works, supposedly. I never land it, ever. Probably because I try to hit with the tip of Kirby's foot, whereas you need to be really close for Dtilt->Fsmash to really work. So it's pretty situational.



Stone is bad onstage. If your opponent likes to uptilt/upsmash/jump and upair you when you're above them, and you've seen them do it a few times, feel free to punish with Stone. Otherwise, smart players usually stay a bit in front of Kirby when he's in the air, baiting him to do an aerial or Stone so they can punish. So don't be stupid.

Stone as an edgeguard is great if you're patient and wait until your opponent has no options. I KOed an Olimar with it twice in one match in friendlies. Good stuff. Just time it carefully, and you will get a KO or a good chunk of damage.

The best way to not use Stone is to not use it. Make your opponent forget that it exists, and then surprise them with it for an easy kill.

 

[Kewkky]

I like stone, but I dislike dtilt. I could just do something else rather than risk a retaliation on my opponent's part... Instead of dtilt, just go in for a grab or something. Same difference IMO, even if all you want to do is setup for an fsmash... Just wait until your opponent will get hit 100% with one, rather than setting up for one that might miss is they block the dtilt.

I know dtilt has many beautiful things, but uhh... It's just not my type of attack. I can't just sit back and wait for things to happen whenever I see a chance where a move will connect 100%. I'd rather just wait and string unavoidable hits when i feel it's time for a random brawlkombo.

Stone... It's quite strong, and I rarely use it, and only 1 time did it end up ****ing up my match, and costing me a tourney. Had to land on top of Halberd's top platform, on top of an usmash-charging DDD... I'd rather just use it to slide, or stagespike on stages whose floors also serve as ceilings.

 

[thrillagorilla]

I'm gonna be brief with this one, since there has already been some discussion going and I'm limited on time tonight because I'm going to an opera performance.

D-tilt: D-tilt as an attack by itself isn't that interesting of a move. It comes out on frame 4 (which is nice and fast, 1 frame more than jab and 1 less than f-tilt) but only does 5%-6% damage. It's range is around .5 blocks (1 Kirby length) and has a bit faster cool-down and shorter range than an f-tilt. It also has a tripping mechanism that can combo (true combo) into a f-smash if it goes into effect. Since this move can be performed directly out of a crouch, I decided to see what defensive uses the move might have as well. D-tilt has very nice priority on it, clanking with most tilts that I checked (most notable were all of Snake's and Marth's tilts) as well as out-prioritizing both the Fox Illusion and Falco Phantasm. A funny thing happened while I was testing it, though. I successfully ducked under a DK f-tilt. After playing with it a bit more, I came to the conclusion that Kirby is shorter than his regular crouch while performing a d-tilt. I don't know if this is known (A1's post LOOKED like it was referring to it, but idk), but it wasn't listed in Krii's crouch avoid list, so I figured I'd post it just to be sure. All in all, not a bad move.

Stone: I'm not gonna lie. I may use this move once a day of playing smash if that, and only for my opponent's "wait, you're using what mo- aw crap it hit me" reactions. The move doesn't come out until frame 30 if used in the air, so it is by far the most telegraphed of all Kirby's moves. That said, it hits nice and hard if it does connect, and can be useful for regulating altitude in some situations (Falling after a typhoon in PS, Wind stage on PS2, things like that). It also can work as an edge-guard against opponents with slower airspeed or telegraphed recoveries. On a final note, If playing on Norfair, I will always use stone to defend against the lava tsunami. There is no chance of committing shield stupidity and a flaming rock just looks cool.

 

[A1lion835]

Yea, that was referring to it. If you check AiB, t1mmy has a "kirby tip of the week" guide-thingy, one of the first few of which was dtilt, where he said it was lower than crouch.

 

[Asdioh]

But ... there are times when people grab me when I'm using dtilt, when I swore they wouldn't be able to grab me when I'm just normally crouching.

Or maybe their grab ranges go deceptively low, regardless?

 

[A1lion835]

But ... there are times when people grab me when I'm using dtilt, when I swore they wouldn't be able to grab me when I'm just normally crouching.

Or maybe their grab ranges go deceptively low, regardless?

Maybe there are a few frames where he's slightly higher than regular crouch? Iunno.

 

[thrillagorilla]

Ah, it would appear that I have some more testing to do . I can guarantee that you are shorter when you d-tilt, so I'm thinking it's a grab mechanic. Who did it to you and under what circumstances?

 

[Asdioh]

A lot of people did it to me with various characters. >_>

I get grabbed a lot when I'm trying to dtilt.

The only question is, can they grab me when I'm crouching?

Try playing against Snake on FD. Have him try to grab you when you're crouching. Then have him try to grab your foot when you're spacing with Dtilt so that only the tip of your foot would hit him. Then have him powershield the dtilt at close range and grab.

I wish I could test stuff.

 

[thrillagorilla]

Snake's Grab range extends to his feet at close range. If you are spacing with d-tilt, he's gonna grab your foot. If you are ducking and near his feet, you will get grabbed even if doing a d-tilt away from him. I wouldn't doubt it's the same for all characters. Also, any time you use a non-disjointed attack that gets power shielded your opponent can grab your extended hurt-box. I read a little while back about MogX grabbing one of the DKs f-tilts by doing that, and tested it myself with success.

 

[A1lion835]

Good thing most of our attacks have disjoints, albeit small ones(:.

 

[thrillagorilla]

Well, looks like there hasn't been a great amount of info posted on these two moves compared to other weeks (5+ posts were about A1 becoming a Smash Lord ). There is still time, though! If you haven't already given input on d-tilt and stone, please do.

That being said, the week is coming to a close and it is time to vote on our next two moves. Let the voting commence!

 

[A1lion835]

Let's discuss his Final Smash lulz. /scrub

Um...utilt?

 

[fromundaman]

Not much time, so I'll just post one thing: all characters have different grab ranges, both vertically and horizontally. What this means is that while some characters can grab us out of a crouch, not all can, and the same goes for Dtilt.

 

[Falconv1.0]

U tilt sounds cool to me.

 

[Asdioh]

Don't bother voting on a move, just choose something :/

So we don't all increase our post counts with stupid poasts like this one

 

[thrillagorilla]

Lol, I hadn't thought of it that way...

Well then, our moves for this week are u-tilt and b-throw. I'll post my thoughts on them some time tomorrow. To speed things up I'll take Asdioh's suggestion and start choosing the weekly moves for the remainder. If there is a particular move that you want me to go over, feel free to post it on the corresponding Friday.

Ready... GO!

 

[TechnoMonster]

U-tilt is tight

B-throw sets up for edgeguard beatings at 0%

 

[A1lion835]

Don't bother voting on a move, just choose something :/

So we don't all increase our post counts with stupid poasts like this one

No, you fool, don't tell them!

Utilt sets up for so many combos...utilt>reverse ftilt>dtilt>fsmash is fun from time to time, or you could do the orignial Lion Combo (utilt x2->bair x2->fsmash). Bthrow...play melee.

 

[thrillagorilla]

Time for this week's wall of text .

B-throw

Since we are moving into sub-move territory (the throws all stem from the grab) I figured I'd start by out by listing what I know about grabs. Kirby has five variations (six if you include inhale) that have different properties to them. First off is the standing grab. It comes out on frame 6 (I believe this is a standard for all grabs, correct me if I'm wrong) and can grab opponents from just under a Kirby width away (if you think Snake's magic u-tilt is fun, check out Kirby's grab at max range on slow brawl ). The second variation is a dash-grab. It has a range of around .9 of a block, which is just shy of two Kirby widths. The dash grab has a big range advantage on the other variations, but the trade-off is a lot of ending lag if you whiff it. There are generally better options. The third variation is a pivot grab. The pivot variant has about the same speed and range as a standing grab. It can be useful if you are retreating and want to catch the enemy off guard, but a retreating bair will usually do the trick just as well. The Fourth variant is the shield grab. This is exactly the same as a standing grab, just used while comming out of a shield. The big draw on this move is that you can perform a sliding shield grab, which will effectively extend your grab range by about another Kirby length. It is done by dashing, then dash-cancelling by using your shield. Kirby will slide about 1 to 1.5 Kirby widths before comming to a halt, and the grab can be activated any time that the shield is up. This is one of the more common ways for Kirby to approach, as it is safer than a lot of hit grounded move-set on block. The fifth and Final variant is the boosted pivot grab. This is done the same way as a DACUS, just with different timing and another addition to the process. To Boost pivot grab, start a dash and use the c-stick to initiate a dash-attack. At the same time, hit up on the control stick and z. Immediately afterwords, Roll the control stick back in the opposite direction of that which you are running. This will cause Kirby to do a pivot grab, just like normal. Most characters get a boost from this in range and slide distance, but Kirby doesn't. Not the most useful of techs for Kirby, but it can be done and therefore should be mentioned .

On to the throw! Kirby will flip his opponent over his head and behind him, slamming the opponent into the ground. The opponent will then be launched at a 45 degree angle (no DI) behind Kirby. The kill power on this move is abysmal, not killing until at least 300% if not higher (center of final destination, no DI), so it is best used as a spacing tool. Kirby usually has the upper hand off stage, so this can be a quick way of achieving that purpose if your back is turned to the stage edge. The move is also a nice mix-up if your opponent is expecting the other three throws, and adds a nice 8% damage to boot.

U-tilt

This is one of the more useful moves in Kirby's arsenal. It can be used for comboing in the form of the Gonzo combo, and it can combo into itself at low percentages. The move comes out on frame 4, and arcs all the way from directly behind Kirby to a bit in front of him at the end of the move. It has a surprising range on it as well, reaching behind and above Kirby just under .5 of a block (a bit less than a Kirby width). This move has nice priority on it, so you won't see it getting over-ridden very often. Because of the combination of speed and priority, it makes for a good "get off me" option, and can easily be strung into bairs if the opponent is unaware or caught off guard.



[/wall of text]

 

[A1lion835]

Nice WoPT, but I liek mudkipz I'd like to mention that utilt has IASA frames (not sure when though).

And utilt leads into tons of attacks (utilt, bair, nair, usmash, pivot grab, another utilt, ftilt, uair, inhale (???)). I'll go see if I can find my lion combos that I posted here long ago...

ff'd Nair>utilt>bair>bair>fsmash

ff'd Nair>utilt>reverse fsmash

ff'd Nair>dtilt>fsmash

utilt>ftilt>dtilt>fsmash

utilt>ftilt>fsmash

utilt>utilt>reverse fsmash

took me a while to find these. I also looked at some of my old posts...n00b! (none of these are guaranteed, but it's hard to guess which one of millions of combos you'll try)

 

[DFat2]

The only disjointed moves kirby has are fc and hammer.

Everything else is joined to the bodies hurt box. Thats why some moves clash with marths Fsmash and others just take the damage.

It sucks man, harder than a completely charged fsmash from King ddd on your balls.
(ps. Iwrote this from my dsi ^_^ with touch screen keyboard)

 

[thrillagorilla]

The only disjointed moves kirby has are fc and hammer.

Everything else is joined to the bodies hurt box. Thats why some moves clash with marths Fsmash and others just take the damage.

I don't remember it being said that Kirby had any other disjointed moves. As far as I know you are correct (I say this because I'm not done testing everything yet ). What were you referring to when you said this? Also, unless you are up against a MK, you don't need a disjointed attack to clank with an opponents' disjointed attack. You just need to have your hit-box connect with their hurt-box for the clank to happen. If their move has higher priority than yours, though, you will lose out (I have yet to see DK's 9-punch get clanked with). That's why I said Kirby's d-tilt clanks with Marth's tilts last week. On the other hand, if he out-spaces you he will win out due do him hitting your extended hurt-box and you missing his hurt-box. Sorry if I'm missing the point of your post.

(ps. Iwrote this from my dsi ^_^ with touch screen keyboard)

Rock on. I would get one if I had the money to spend .




Edit: Thanks for mentioning the other ones, A1. On a side note, I have just found a move that clanks with DK's Punch!

...

Another DK punch. Try it, its funny to watch.

 

[A1lion835]

Jab has a disjointed hitbox as well. Speaking of jab, if you're jabbing and your opponent grabs your back, they take a little damage from it. Stone also has a disjoint (the reach horizontally is larger than the stone's hurtbox).

 

[DFat2]

I don't remember it being said that Kirby had any other disjointed moves. As far as I know you are correct (I say this because I'm not done testing everything yet ). What were you referring to when you said this? Also, unless you are up against a MK, you don't need a disjointed attack to clank with an opponents' disjointed attack. You just need to have your hit-box connect with their hurt-box for the clank to happen. If their move has higher priority than yours, though, you will lose out (I have yet to see DK's 9-punch get clanked with). That's why I said Kirby's d-tilt clanks with Marth's tilts last week. On the other hand, if he out-spaces you he will win out due do him hitting your extended hurt-box and you missing his hurt-box. Sorry if I'm missing the point of your post.

Your whole conception on clashing is wrong.

First off, priority is thrown arrond alot. Peaches nair doesnt have high priority, neather does Mk's dair. However, Peaches Nair comes out on frame 4 and Mk's dair comes out on frame 3.

Kirby's dtilt hits on frame 4. Thats probably why you clashed/can clash k's dtilt with marths.

secondly a clash ocurrs whenever two attacks meet on the same frame. Take jabs for example. If two jabs that go out on frame 3 are executed at the same time, they clash. Now the thing with ALL SWORD CHARACTERS is that they get to you before you get to them, with is why marth playsrs space in a way that no attack gets to them before they get to you.

You're mistaking priority. The only priority in this game is super armor priority and grab priority, which mean that even if an attack meets in te same frame, it will trade the damage and continue with the move. Anything else like two grabs going out at tne same time is decided by controller ports.

And some disjointed moves are Olimars moves but I think that, at least in melee, marths moves'arent disjointed. (I've slowed down the game by frames)

 

[thrillagorilla]

First off, priority is thrown arrond alot. Peaches nair doesnt have high priority, neather does Mk's dair. However, Peaches Nair comes out on frame 4 and Mk's dair comes out on frame 3.

I never mentioned areials because they work off of a different system than ground attacks (once again, with the exception of MK's ground moveset minus his dash attack). First hit-box to reach the opposing hurt-box wins, if I'm not mistaken.

Kirby's dtilt hits on frame 4. Thats probably why you clashed/can clash k's dtilt with marths.


secondly a clash ocurrs whenever two attacks meet on the same frame. Take jabs for example. If two jabs that go out on frame 3 are executed at the same time, they clash. Now the thing with ALL SWORD CHARACTERS is that they get to you before you get to them, with is why marth playsrs space in a way that no attack gets to them before they get to you.


I know this is how it works. This is how it has worked since Smash 64. I'm having trouble understanding your explanation of disjoints, priority and how sword characters work, though.

You're mistaking priority. The only priority in this game is super armor priority and grab priority, which mean that even if an attack meets in te same frame, it will trade the damage and continue with the move. Anything else like two grabs going out at tne same time is decided by controller ports.

Priority as I understand it is a move's ability to override another move. An easy way of illustrating this is using moves like DK's punch of Lucario's aurasphere at their varying levels of power. Example, if you use aura-sphere at full charge at low percentages, DK can swat them away with an f-tilt. When Lucario is at higher percentages, DK can no longer do this. By your definition (if I am understanding it correctly) the aurasphere is simply reaching DK earlier, but none of my testing has proven that to be the case. Let me use an example that doesn't involve a projectile (note: for the following examples, I am lining up the moves so that their hit-boxes come out on the same frame). If you use Link's jab against DK's punch when the DK has it charged to 3, the moves clank and both characters are pushed back. If you try the same thing against a 9-punch, though, DK will finish the move and Link will be the only one to get pushed back. Jabs have different priority depending on character though, so lets use Squirtle next. I have not been able to successfully get Squirtle's jab to clank with any of DK's punches. This should be relatively easy to do considering that the jab come out on frame 1, but the punch always wins. Yoshi's jab is different as well. At the lower charges, DK's punch and Yoshi's jab clash. At higher charges, DK's punch overrides Yoshi's jab. This is how I understand priority.

And some disjointed moves are Olimars moves but I think that, at least in melee, marths moves'arent disjointed. (I've slowed down the game by frames)

What are the qualifications to a disjointed attack? I understand it to be when a move has a hit-box outside of the character's hurt-box. Meta-knight is a perfect way to test this, seeing as his ground moves can't clank. Using meta-knight's f-tilt, space a DK f-tilt so that Meta's f-tilt will only hit DK's hit-box (his arm). Meta will damage DK and interrupt the move. Now try the same trick using Marth instaed of DK. Meta's f-tilt won't damage Marth, even though Marth's hit-box is being invaded. This means (at least as far as I can tell) that Marth's sword moves' hit-boxes are disjointed from his hurt-box. You can pull the same kinds of tricks with Link's tether grabs. Link can grab character's limbs, but not their swords.

Everything I've put up is in yellow. I don't mind going off course a bit longer for this discussion, but I would like to get back to talking about this weeks moves soon.

 

[A1lion835]

Disjointed hitboxes are just an attack that has a hurtbox extended farther than the hitbox. However, what we mostly use it for is to describe attacks like snake's utilt, who have such large disjoints that you'd think it's from another move. All sword characters have disjoints b/c, unsurprisingly, hitting someone's sword doesn't physically hurt them. What you say about marth not having disjoints in melee doesn't make much sense...if you hit his sword, he'd be hurt?

 

[DFat2]

Disjointed hitboxes are just an attack that has a hurtbox extended farther than the hitbox. However, what we mostly use it for is to describe attacks like snake's utilt, who have such large disjoints that you'd think it's from another move. All sword characters have disjoints b/c, unsurprisingly, hitting someone's sword doesn't physically hurt them. What you say about marth not having disjoints in melee doesn't make much sense...if you hit his sword, he'd be hurt?

Yes, he would. I'm 83% sure about it.

Thrilla dude, i'll reply back when I get a full keyboard. I cant write as fast/johns.

 

[thrillagorilla]

Np. Don't worry about getting back to me quickly, I know how annoying those touch keypads can be for longer messages. If I'm wrong, though, I want to know about it so that I can be right the next time around .

 

[DFat2]

Np. Don't worry about getting back to me quickly, I know how annoying those touch keypads can be for longer messages. If I'm wrong, though, I want to know about it so that I can be right the next time around .

Man, you write a lot. I'm not going to bother replying in a long wall of text. The whole argument is silly really. I'm just going to say that for you to understand what I'm saying, you're going to need a capture device that slows down the game.

It gets a whole lot clearer when you know your attacks frames. I can Clash attacks like it's a joke so, I don't have a need to argue. It's all really an opinion, not a fact. The facts have already been stated on the brawl tactical discussion section. use the search engine.

 

[thrillagorilla]

Found it.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=155409&highlight=Clashing+Priority

Thanks for pointing me in the right direction. My statements still stand about the sword-users' disjoints, but intrinsic priority based on % damage makes a lot more sense than priority on a move by move basis. Thanks for the clarification, I won't miss-state it again.

Now that I've been corrected, I'd like to get back to the move discussion at hand. If you haven't posted on b-throw and u-tilt, please do. The more input and discussion, the better.

 

[DFat2]

Found it.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=155409&highlight=Clashing+Priority

Thanks for pointing me in the right direction. My statements still stand about the sword-users' disjoints, but intrinsic priority based on % damage makes a lot more sense than priority on a move by move basis. Thanks for the clarification, I won't miss-state it again.

Now that I've been corrected, I'd like to get back to the move discussion at hand. If you haven't posted on b-throw and u-tilt, please do. The more input and discussion, the better.

Back throw is kind of Meh. Dgrab is infinitely better. But, you could use it to get people out of the stage but they could probably jump over you or grab the edge. In any other case, it could be used to freshen moves.

Up tilt is sex. There's nothing that substitutes it. It's one of my most used moves. It's like Wario's jab attack, it follows up to Upair almost always. It comes out on frame like 4 or sometihng. It's a really good move that should be in every one's arsenal.

That's the basic stuff. I really don't want to write that much at 12 am.

 

[Delta Z]

I can think of one (maybe) good use for b-throw. Use it with Kirby's back near the edge of the stage and his opponent gets bounced into the air...putting Kirby in a good position to start up a b-air Wall of Pain.

 

[thrillagorilla]

Alright, new moves! This week will be u-throw and bair. I'll put my two cents in later.

DISCUSS!!!

 

[T-nuts]

u-throw: good for team battles and the ice climbers. if you grab snake and theres a nade on the ground next to you you can use this to be up in the air while the nade explodes. killing off the top at high percents, expecially if you can land on a platform or your opponent has bad DI. ninja spike. and the omnigay.

bair: step 1 use it every second of the match. step 2 win.

 

[Falconv1.0]

Bair is something I use like 90% of the time that I do anything. It's just ludicrously awesome, and if in the match up it's even a little bit useful, USE IT FOREVER AND EVER.