The Unofficial Weekly Moveset Discussion Thread!!! This Week: D-Throw and U-Smash

[thrillagorilla]

After looking about the Kirby boards for a duplicate topic and finding only a few semi-similar topics from the past few months (most abandoned or closed), I thought it might be helpful to try this out. So, without further ado…

*ahem*




The Unofficial Bi-Weekly Kirby Move-Set Discussion Thread (tada! )



Kirby has a great move-set, and he can do a lot of cool things with it. Walls of pain, stone glitch, and… final cutter ledge stall?!? For those of you who don’t know what I am talking about, this thread is for you. For those of you that do know what I am talking about, this thread is also for you. The intention is to go through every move in Kirby’s arsenal and analyze every little thing he can do, no matter how arbitrary it may seem. Impress your friends! Pull a random upset! These and many more benefits could possibly come out of these discussions.



Before we begin, there are a few guidelines.



1. This is not a guide on how to play Kirby. If you are new to the awsomeness that is Kirby, and want to know how to become “one tough cream puff”, visit t!MmY’s amazing guide here.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=144039

2. This is not a match-up discussion. If you are seeking how to star-shoot your foes into oblivion, go to MK26’s match-up thread here.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=195032

3. This is not a meta-game analysis. If you want to see what’s all the rage in Kirby’s current playing style, visit psykoplympton’s thread here.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=175168

4. We won’t be going over Kirby’s Suck move or copy powers. If you want to know how to suck, visit fromundaman’s sucking guide here.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=224822

If you want to learn how to spam t-jolt back at Pikachu, visit RK Joker’s copy-ypoc thread here.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=222800

5. Finally, this isn’t a move tier-list. If you want to talk about tiers, go look up the topics that failed and see why this thread isn’t aimed at doing that .




I will bring up two of Kirby’s moves per week to discuss. I’ll present my findings for the moves, and then open the floor up to the Kirby Boards to discuss this week’s moves and request moves for the next week. You can talk about anything you want that has to do with that week’s moves. Talk about how you can stop Meta-Knight’s tornado with nair. Talk about how you can spam up-b in certain situations. It doesn’t matter if it is “general knowledge” or “not very useful.” If it is in any way, shape or form doable, post it. The idea is to spread the knowledge of the uberness of Kirby’s moves to entire Kirby boards! Share the love!

Without further ado, the thread!





Week one: Up-b and fair.


Up-B

Final cutter is a very high priority move with a disjointed hit box, a decent recovery and has some good attack properties. It is far from being spammable, though. It has a vertical range of 5 Kirbys when grounded, and about 3.5 Kirbys when used in the air. The hits come out on frames 23, 43 and 56, the second of which has spiking properties. Kirby can b-reverse this move in its opening frames by pressing the opposite direction after the move starts, as well as "slide" for about a kirby length horizontally in the first 22 frames by holding the direction you want to go in.

The move also has an energy shock wave that can be used in some unique ways. For instance, if a character is trying to recover horizontally, you can use it to force them to use a jump or fall below the stage (or get hit, either way...), giving you the advantage (this is best applied to characters that have slower horizontal recovery). The shock wave can also force Snakes grenades to explode, clearing the way (or allowing Snake to pull fresh grenades XD). The shock wave can also go through some obstacles without being stopped, such as the rock and tree on PS1, the connectors in Brinstar and the pillars in Luigi's Mansion to name a few.

A few final things on final cutter (I made a funny ). The move has a fair amount of ending lag, so it can be punishable. Make sure you are OK to use it before you do, like throwing it out as your opponent is about to jump at you, or when you are a safe distance away and the shock wave will be a good enough deterrent (AKA your opponent wasn't expecting it and you catch them off guard). It also has a few other situational abilities, such as stalling under a thin ledge or cutter-ciding (though the pseudo version is MUCH better to use if you can). All in all a solid if not situational move.

Fair


Fair is a versitile move, sporting a lot of uses, but not necessarily being the best at any of them. It has three separate kicks, coming out on frames 10, 18 and 27 with the last having the most stun and knock-back. The hit-box is a bit odd on it, covering below and slightly behind Kirby as well as in front of him. fair is akin to bair in that is can WoP, though it is less reliable due to the multiple hits. The multiple hits make it a good spot-dodge punisher, though. On the flip side, it doesn't perform well for shield pressure due to low shield stun.

If performed fast enough fair can finish before Kirby lands, allowing for a lag-less landing. This can lead to follow-ups at low percentages and allows for quick defensive measures should the move miss. It can also be fast-falled after the first or second hit connects, allowing for a grab follow-up. All in all, fun stuff .





Discussion: Pages 1-3/Post #1 - Post #31





Week Two: Side-B and Nair.




Side-B



Summary when I can get around to it.




Nair




Summary when I can get around to it






Discussion: Pages 3-5/ Post #32-#74





Week Three: Down-B and d-tilt.




d-tilt




Summary when I can get around to it




Down-B




Summary when I can get around to it






Discussion: Pages 5-7/ Post #74-100




Week Four: B-throw and u-tilt.




B-throw




Summary when I can get around to it





u-tilt




Summary when I can get around to it





Discussion: Pages 7-8/ Post #101-117







Week Five: U-throw and Bair.





U-throw





Summary when I can.





Bair





Summary when I can.






Discussion: Pages 8-9/ Post #117-132





Week Six:Dair and F-tilt





Dair





Summary when I can.






F-tilt





Summary when I can.






Discussion: Pages 9-?/ Post#133-?







That’s all I’ve got for now. So, ON TO DISCUSSION!!!


Frame data from “Kirby & The Amazing Guide (version 2.0)” by t!MmY

 

[thrillagorilla]

Up-B


Up-b is our vertical recovery move. It has a vertical range of about 2.5 blocks (~Five Kirbys in height) and has a horizontal range of about .5 of a block (~1 Kirby length) on the blade, 2.5 blocks (~five Kirby’s width) on the beam. The first hit-box comes out on frame 23, the second on frame 43 and the last on frame 56. This means it takes a good 22 frames before the move even comes out, making this one of our laggier attacks. The second hit has a spike on it, which can be used to spike, cutter-cide, or psudo-cutter-cide, all of which are explained in Gonzo’s psudo-cutter-cide thread here.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=219570

There are some interesting properties to those first 22 frames, though. For one, we can “slide” left or right about .5 blocks in length before the first hit box even comes out. This can allow us to either approach or retreat while using this move. This can help in it’s use as a projectile, giving us a weapon with which to camp against some characters and force approaches. This “slide” property can also be used while in the air, giving us a rather arbitrary but cool AT I like to call “final cutter ledge stall!” (sorry if this is known and has another name. Let me know and I’ll change it!)

To perform this, you need to be on a level that has a thin edge that can’t be jumped through (think Skyworld, PS1 and the like). Then, you perform a final cutter from below the stage, facing the center of the stage. A soon as the move activates, start to “slide” towards the edge. If done correctly, Kirby with “stall” under the ledge for a moment, before sliding out from under the stage and auto-snapping the ledge. Not particularly useful, but if Fox and Falco can make use of a measly amount of directional change in their Fire-Fox/Falco moves, I’m sure we can make use of this move.

To wrap things up, this move can be b-reversed by tapping the direction you wish it to go in just after you initiate the move. Kirby turns around within the first few frames of the move, so you can make it look like you are going to attack one direction, then attack in the other.



Fair

Our forward aerial attack. This move hits three times, with the hit-boxes coming out on frames 10, 18 and 27. The range on the move is just under .5 of a block (1 kirby length) per kick, with small amounts of knock-back occurring on hits one and two and the most knock-back occurring on the third hit. If you input the move fast enough after a SH, it finishes right before you land. This means you can laglessly follow up at lower percentages with a lot of cool things like grabs, ftilts, dtilts, and jabs as long as your opponent doesn’t react fast enough (or predict the right move). This also acts as one of our two “walls of pain”, meaning you can string it together with itself and take the opponent along with you off-stage or on depending on circumstance. The opponent can SDI behind you if you are too close while using fair, so be sure to space properly when using it.

 

[TechnoMonster]

I was expecting this to be about 3 lines, but I think it turned out pretty good.

Final Cutter has a lot of "priority" just above and in front of Kirby, but it doesn't extend up to the rise, just on the initial jump, and in that respect is very similar to Ike's recovery. You can also reverse it and do it backwards, and this can be useful for edgeguarding. An example might be to jump out with a B-air, fastfall it, then reverse up-B back onto the stage, landing the spike hit or shockwave for an edgeguard KO.

The shockwave hit is great edgeguarding on characters that can't recover quickly horizontally after they get hit, especially Marth, other Kirbies, DeDeDe etc, because the trajectory is low.


F-air is your essential mixup to B-air. 3 hits, more damage, but slower, and functions a lot like Snake's N-air in that you can hit a little under and behind you with it. In that sense, its good to jump into airborne opponents with it when you don't think they'll attack. Its also good to fall down in front of people with from a full jump, considering it has good priority and tends to linger, but obviously watch out for people that can easily beat it out (swords etc). You can also use the kicks to knock back boomerangs.

The big downside is that since the move is 3 weak hits instead of one buff one, it has terrible shield stun, so try not to approach grounded opponents with it as it isn't safe at all.

In general, Kirby's slow run and airspeed and the slow startup of the move preclude you from chasing people around with f-airs though, and U-air is often a better alternative.

 

[Phantomwake]

Final cutter slides further on the ground

 

[A1lion835]

Kirby actually slides further on the ground.

For fair, the 1st and 3rd hits hit behind him, but only about where kirby's back foot is. FF'd fair>fsmash is possible, but if it's sheildgrabbed, you're in for a world of hurt.

I imagine this being a pretty good thread.

 

[aqua421]

ignore this

 

[thrillagorilla]

I checked on sliding distance, and its about equal no matter if you are on the ground or in the air when you start it, though there is a diference of around .25 of a block (grounded is indeed longer). The height is different by about .5 of a block though (grounded reaching higher) and it LOOKS like the aerial version is a tad faster, too. As for fair hitting behind Kirby, it isn't so much behind him as it is below him. I wasn't able to hit a DDD when I tested it with just trying to hit behind me (I've got photos to illustrate these points and a few others, but I don't know an easy way to post them...). As always, feel free to check my results!

Edit:

and functions a lot like Snake's N-air in that you can hit a little under and behind you with it.

Doh! I missed this when I first read your post. This is the result I got when I tested it. It worked on all three hits as well, though not together in a single attack.

 

[A1lion835]

My testing was fairing, drifting back towards them. I'd managed to get the 1st and 3rd hits to hit opponents touching my back foot.

 

[AndreVeloso]

Try using a f-air when your opponent has laggy aerial attacks or only approach a Yoshi on the ground with it. The shield stun is cancelled by Yoshi's weird shield exit. I find f-air works on a Snake after a grab since you would like to keep snake in the air. Kirby's forward air is much quicker than Snake's and Ganondorf's so you can try it against these characters. Otherwise, I find u-air a better option.

His Final Cutter is also good as a quick vertical recovery. Can't say much for this attack except for exploding Snake's mines and forcing people into the air if they don't like dodging. Can be absorbed by Game & Watch's bucket.

 

[T-nuts]

final cutter is OK. i mean, its an up b recovery, but as an attack...well, its much better in laggy wifi than it is in offline. it still has SOME uses though.

as for fair, great move. total utility move, can be used in a lot of situations. I do not have the intelligence to explain it right now however. maybe next time.

 

[2pac29]

Is there a way you can cancel the final cutter?

 

[link64e]

Is there a way you can cancel the final cutter?

No, It's an all or nothing move.

It's pretty good at catching people off guard. I usually use it if an opponent jumps in front me, Depending on the character you can catch them as they take off before they have time to dodge. But it should be used very, VERY, sparingly since it is easy avoidable and punishable. Never use it as a projectile either.

 

[2pac29]

Dude I know you can some how cancel the final cutter? I did it by Accident... I have a video saved on my friends Wii I'll upload it As soon as i get a chance

 

[fromundaman]

Best usage of FC:

-Spamming it through the tree/rock/weird metal thingies on the rock and fire stages of PS1, since it's practically unpunishable there, and it lures the enemy into places where you can infinite them.

 

[Asdioh]

You already mentioned this, but I'll elaborate a little bit. Aerial Final Cutter has less horizontal distance than the grounded one does. When you think about this, that kinda sucks (recovering...?) but whatever.

For example, if you use FC from the ground under the middle platform on Battlefield, you will land on the platform. If you jump slightly and then use FC right after, you won't go high enough to land on the platform. Good to know if you're trying to hit someone that's trying to get onstage.

When I'm trying to get on the stage, and my opponent is near the edge trying to edgeguard me, I like to press down to fall off the ledge, and immediately use FC. The blade goes through the stage and has good priority, so it will very frequently hit my opponent. This is also hard for most characters to punish, even if they shield it. If the blade hits them, you can DI the FC onstage and land for hopefully, a 3-hit combo that does 16% damage, which is very nice. Use your judgment on this. If they block the cutter, you should NOT DI on the stage, and instead land back on the ledge. Yay, lagless Final Cutter
Be careful though. I did this a couple times against Anther's Pikachu, and one of the times he used Quick Attack, and edgehogged me. It happened in a split second, and I fell to my doom. It was pretty ******** >=(

Thanks to glitchiness, the FC shockwave (projectile) can go through some solid objects in the game, that no other projectile can go through. Think of the Fire transformation on Pokemon Stadium (Melee) .. if you FC on the left of the tree, under the branch, it goes through. Also, if there's a ceiling above you, you can use FC faster as a projectile. And yeah, it has lots of landing lag, so use it sparingly as a projectile. Most characters can't really punish it if you space it well and if you don't use it predictably.











Forward Air! Not too long ago, I didn't use this move that much. But recently, I've been using it more than Bair. o_O

It's good. Good damage, punishes spotdodges. Don't use it for shield pressure, but other than that, go for it. Using this instead of Bair keeps Bair fresh for a KO. If your Fair happens to be fresh, and your opponent is offstage near the blastzone, try to hit them with the 3rd kick of Fair, and it should KO. Fun stuff.

 

[thrillagorilla]

Thank you everyone for the input so far . If you are reading this and haven't given your input, please do! Anything and everything helps.

I have a couple questions for those that have already contributed...

Dude I know you can some how cancel the final cutter? I did it by Accident... I have a video saved on my friends Wii I'll upload it As soon as i get a chance

Thank you for being willing to upload! Is there any chance you could describe the events that led to the up-b being canceled in the mean-time? It would be great to get some testing in to see if we can re-create it consistently.

It's good. Good damage, punishes spotdodges. Don't use it (fair) for shield pressure, but other than that, go for it.

My comment for reference. Is there any chance you could elaborate on this a bit more?

Ex.

If we use fair like the foxes use their fair, wouldn't we be able to space the first kick then DI away from them and avoid the shield-grab (I ask because I don't know )?

Final question posed to anyone that can answer it. I mentioned earlier that SHFC LOOKS like it is shorter and faster than grounded. Is anyone willing to confirm or debunk this theory? If it is faster, it might be more viable as a projectile (by no means spammable, but certainly more usable).

 

[A1lion835]

Yea, you go up less far in the air than on the ground. I think Asdioh mentioned this, but:

1. Stand under center platform on battlefield
2. FC
3. You should land on the platform
4. Try doing it with a jump before you fc
5. You should just miss landing on the platform

 

[Blue Flash]

"5. Finally, this isn’t a move tier-list. If you want to talk about tiers, go look up the topics that failed and see why this thread isn’t aimed at doing that ."

<(;^')>

 

[Asdioh]

My comment for reference. Is there any chance you could elaborate on this a bit more?

Ex.

If we use fair like the foxes use their fair, wouldn't we be able to space the first kick then DI away from them and avoid the shield-grab (I ask because I don't know )?

Well, I guess you could. It's just that Bair is much faster and better for shield pressure. I love spamming Fair when my opponent is in the air, or to intimidate them when they're on the ground and thinking about going in the air. For shield pressure, it's much harder to space without getting grabbed or punished than Bair is. I would say it's good if you can go forward/pull back at the beginning/end of the move, and if their shield is pretty full. But other than that, I'd just use Bair to shieldpressure. What's great is that (I assume) hitting shields doesn't cause stale moves, so you can pressure shields with Bair all day, and then use Fair to hit them once they're in the air or their shield is low. Save Bair for KOs.

Final question posed to anyone that can answer it. I mentioned earlier that SHFC LOOKS like it is shorter and faster than grounded. Is anyone willing to confirm or debunk this theory? If it is faster, it might be more viable as a projectile (by no means spammable, but certainly more usable).

Like lion said, I already said this...and I only knew about it because I saw someone post it in a thread a long time ago, and I tested it myself.

<(;^')>

lolwut


edit: lol at how the colors turned out in this post.

Too lazy to edit them >_>

 

[thrillagorilla]

With the week coming to a close, it's time to gear up for the next two moves. I'll transfer my thoughts in the OP to the second post, and start creating summaries of whats been discussed in the OP. Is there one move in particular that anyone wants to cover for this next week? I have two moves in mind if there isn't any preference, but I'd rather go with what the community wants to discuss.

 

[A1lion835]

I'd prefer to discuss grounded hammer, as most people seem to misunderestimate it's usefulness.

"misunderestimate" is a trademark of George Bush Jr, Inc. all rights reserved

 

[fromundaman]

Well, I guess you could. It's just that Bair is much faster and better for shield pressure. I love spamming Fair when my opponent is in the air, or to intimidate them when they're on the ground and thinking about going in the air. For shield pressure, it's much harder to space without getting grabbed or punished than Bair is. I would say it's good if you can go forward/pull back at the beginning/end of the move, and if their shield is pretty full. But other than that, I'd just use Bair to shieldpressure. What's great is that (I assume) hitting shields doesn't cause stale moves, so you can pressure shields with Bair all day, and then use Fair to hit them once they're in the air or their shield is low. Save Bair for KOs.

True, but I don't really see a need to 'save' Bair per se, seeing as to how a single grab around 100% or higher will usually give you enough pummels to fully refresh it.

 

[thrillagorilla]

Are there no other moves that people want to discuss?

I'll be closing out the option later tonight and starting on the new moves, so speak now or forever hold your peace (or hold it till next week if I don't choose a move you want ).

 

[A1lion835]

I'd prefer to discuss grounded hammer, as most people seem to misunderestimate it's usefulness.

"misunderestimate" is a trademark of George Bush Jr, Inc. all rights reserved

Are there no other moves that people want to discuss?

I'll be closing out the option later tonight and starting on the new moves, so speak now or forever hold your peace (or hold it till next week if I don't choose a move you want ).

Ahem. Ahemhem. Ahemhemhem.

AHEHEHEM!

 

[thrillagorilla]

I saw, A1, I saw . That will be one of the two moves unless the thread magically gets a LOT of posts before 10 Pacific time. I'll update then.

 

[Phantomwake]

Lets talk about nair and Hammer

 

[thrillagorilla]

Lets talk about nair and Hammer

That's hilarious. This is EXACTLY what I was thinking about doing . Three votes for hammer (with emPHAsis on the grounded version) and two votes for nair. Any other takers?

 

[fromundaman]

Just to be different, FC and Stone!

(Seriously though, Hammer and Nair sounds good to me. Whatever you do don't start inhale... I don't have time to rant about it right now.)

 

[thrillagorilla]

No worries. I'm not planning to go over it. I stated that in the OP and put a link up to you're guide. Hope you don't mind . If we DO eventually get to it, it'll be at the end.

 

[fromundaman]

Oh, hadn't seen it. Awesome, thanks!

 

[SmileyStation]

oh to add on to the f-air metagame, the first and second hit of f-airs give a free grab. Theres my usefulness for the month. Dunno if it's been said.

 

[thrillagorilla]

Alright! On to the next two moves!

nair

Lets get the bad out of the way first. The range on this move is abysmal. If your opponent isn't close enough to be touching Kirby's body, the move just won't hit. I've seen Kirby's feet pass through a grounded Wario without even nicking him. The move is also a tad slow. It is tied with fair and u-air with how fast it comes out (frame 10), meaning this isn't a very good "get off me" type of move unless you predict well in advance. The stun and knock-back are both low too. Also note, it seems to work like a sex-kick, meaning the first half of the move has a stronger hit-box than the last half.

OK, now that THAT'S out of the way... Nair may be Kirby's least useful move all around, but it is NOT useless. In the event of playing doubles, this move can give partners back a third jump with little risk to them. It also can work to break up fights when your partner is getting ganged up on. These may not be big, but they can work effectively. Kirby has a "situational" type move-set, so if you forget even one use of a move, you limit your potential. I digress...

On top of this, it does have some other uses too. Nair can be Fast Falled without receiving heavy landing lag (the landing lag is the same for regular and FF, so you should never be afraid to FF it). This can allow you to defend yourself and reset your position on the ground if your opponent is hounding you in the air. If your opponent is on the ground, the move can shove them back a decent amount at higher percents. This can put you in a position to grab, jab, or whatever you would use in your normal ground game. Around the 100% range, it can even string into a F-smash if it connects with the weak hit. It can be shield grabbed, but if you aren't using it regularly it can offset your opponent's predicting rhythm. Nair may not be Kirby's best move, but it has it's place in the cream-puff's arsenal .

Side-B

Teh HAMMARZ! This move is one of Kirby's top killers, hands down. It is also one of Kirby's slowest moves, grounded version coming out on frame 25 and Aerial coming out on frame 16 and again on frame 36. The grounded version can kill as low as 83% (all these numbers come from using Mario, center of FD, no DI, sweet-spotted). The first aerial hit kills as low as 117% and the second around 110% (though if the character doesn't have good horizontal recovery, they won't be able to make it back any later than around 100% due to the absurdly low trajectory ). The aerial version does have a sour-spot on the hammer handle right next to Kirby. This can hit your opponent in either a forward or backward trajectory and has lower hit-stun and knock-back than it's sweet-spotted version.

So, what do we do with it? <(O.o)>

This move is an EXCELLENT punisher, dealing out a whopping 23% damage from the grounded version, 17% from the first aerial swing (13% sour-spotted) and 15% from the second hit (though, if your opponent sits around long enough for the second swing to hit, s/he deserves the punishment XD). At first glance, it would seem the first aerial hit would serve this purpose best, but there are a couple of things to consider. First, it takes frames to jump. I've heard that some characters can take as long as 6 frames to initiate the jump, so going by that number, the first swing of Giant Swing would in actuality come out on frame 22, rather than frame 16. This is still faster than the grounded version and adds a bit of range due to having freedom of movement, but you lose a good 6% (9% if you miss the sweet-spot) of damage and a LOT of knock-back. If you are in position to punish with the grounded version, go for it! You won't be disappointed! ^(OuO)^

I'm done babbling for now, so... ON TO DISCUSSION!!!

 

[T-nuts]

oh to add on to the f-air metagame, the first and second hit of f-airs give a free grab. Theres my usefulness for the month. Dunno if it's been said.

guy knows what hes talking about.

EDIT: and the guy who says nair is kirby's most useless move? overall? way, way off.

 

[thrillagorilla]

Would you mind elaborating a bit, T-nuts? These are just my observations. I obviously don't know everything, and am more than happy to be proven wrong . Also, I simply meant in terms of utility, and I did state that nair wasn't useless.

 

[Phantomwake]

Lol I want to talk about nair cause its AMMMAAAAAZZZIIINNNG
And hammer cause it is situational yet still essential

they are like opposites,
Nair, Whenever you want
Hammer, whenever you get a chance

 

[Lord Viper]

EDIT: and the guy who says nair is kirby's most useless move? overall? way, way off.

☆ I kind of agree that N-Air is Kirby's most useless move to use besides B-Throw. I don't remember the last time I've ever used that move, nor when did N-Air help me in a Brawl. ☆

 

[A1lion835]

Since Nair autocancels on the ground, you can do things like Nair>utilt>any followup because you can follow up utilt with almost anything. Or, since kirby's dtilt trips an insanely high % of the time, nair>dtilt>fsmash for a good 30%. NEVER USE THIS OFFSTAGE, except in doubles as thrillagorilla said. It gives plenty of times for your opponent to read you and you probably won't make it back onstage, even with your 5 jumps.

Hammer is a very odd move. No one ever expects it because of how slow it is, so you can use it, but only limitedly. My favorite time for a hammer is when you're playing someone you know always tries to hit you out of your dthrow. Unless they have huge range on their dair (~size of marths), you can dash out from under your opponent after a dthrow and reverse hammer, which is just too good (I think I killed an Ike like this at...40% on Brinstar? Albeit I was on the far right platform, but still). You can also dash>shield>hammer, which gives you a bit of a slide (this also works well with ftilt, and is more versatile that way).

I wouldn't say nair is his most useless move at all. Kirby has very few moves which you can gauge are "better" than others (the obvious exception being bair). I would have to say it's one of his most situational, but that bthrow is more so.

 

[T-nuts]

guy knows what hes talking about.

EDIT: and the guy who says nair is kirby's most useless move? overall? way, way off.

Would you mind elaborating a bit, T-nuts? These are just my observations. I obviously don't know everything, and am more than happy to be proven wrong . Also, I simply meant in terms of utility, and I did state that nair wasn't useless.

sorry about that, i didnt really mean to come off as an ******* there haha.

anyway, nair is a damage builder. most people probably don't realize but it does 12% damage even though it looks like a wussy move. and when you land it on a grounded opponent, so many follow ups can usually be possible, helping you build even more damage. im not gonna say when to follow with what, but dtilt, jab, dash grab, there are lots of possibilities, depending on the situation.

And landing it really isnt that hard. I know you say that with 10 startup frames, its too slow for a get off me move, but it isnt. its just a tiny bit slower than most of them. obviously you cant use it to interrupt an MK aerial string, or get someone like luigi or yoshi off you in the air (because their nairs are so fast) but i mainly use it to interrupt ground strings that knock me into the air, and then the opponent tries to follow up from the ground.

also it is one of your best choices to punish someone on the ground who is in front of you and is suffering some brief lag (not enough to punish with hammer). of course fair-->grab can also be a good choice.

 

[A1lion835]

Tnuts (and others), bair and uair (and possibly fair) come out on frame 9, so bair is actually a better choice for breaking out of aerial strings (and, believe it or not, bair's hitbox is all of kirby's body, not just his feet).

Although, nair has a slight disjoint between his hands, so maybe it's better. Iunno. You also have to consider the long aerial lag.

 

[T-nuts]

bair is definitely the better get off me move, as long as you use the c stick and dont move back towards them while you use the bair. also, i know bair can hit in front of you, but nair hits decently farther in front of you. i would definitely use bair if they were coming from behind though.