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The Unofficial Weekly Moveset Discussion Thread!!! This Week: D-Throw and U-Smash

SmileyStation

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The back air is not a useless throw. You can combo out of it despite what every1 believes until ~30%. The n-air can also be used as a combo breaker occasionally or to get a free grab after the initial hit. I use it everyday on people i see as very good players.
 

Asdioh

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i mainly use it to interrupt ground strings that knock me into the air, and then the opponent tries to follow up from the ground.
This. I was having trouble thinking about how I use Nair, but this is one of the best ways. Someone knocks you up, you Nair and fastfall right back at ya! ... I mean, right back on them. It usually works pretty well.

Yeah, Nair is good. I actually use it a lot (though about half the time I use Nair, it was intended to be a Fair or Bair, but whatever)

And I know we finished Fair, but man I love that move. Lately I've been spamming that move ALL THE TIME and it works SO WELL.

The back air is not a useless throw. You can combo out of it despite what every1 believes until ~30%. The n-air can also be used as a combo breaker occasionally or to get a free grab after the initial hit. I use it everyday on people i see as very good players.
Combo, or string? Are they DI-ing away from you? >_>


Hammer on the ground is simply a punisher or prediction move. Sometimes you can use it to attack shields, but it's usually not a good idea. Like, I hit a Snake's shield with a pretty well-spaced Hammer, and he walked up to me and Ftilted during my ending lag.

With Aerial Hammer, I almost always aim for the second swing if my opponent is on or near the ground, and I aim for "both" swings if my opponent's in the air, because I hope that if they airdodge, one of the swings will hit them.

Important things you need to know about Hammer that I didn't seriously look into until recently.

Note this also applies to Stone.

If you use a Hammer, Aerial Hammer, or Stone, the next time you land on the ground, you will have "phantom lag" meaning Kirby will lag upon reaching the ground for no apparent reason, and you can't do any action for a split second.

A lot of people like to recover with Stone or aerial Hammer...just be aware that the next time you touch the ground, there will be lag. And if you use a grounded Hammer, make sure you jump and touch the ground away from your opponent to get rid of the lag.

The lag will not take place if you use Final Cutter and land on the ground, so watch out. You will still have to jump and land regularly to get rid of the lag.

Landing on the ground with Aerial Hammer gets rid of the lag.
 

thrillagorilla

Smash Ace
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Messages
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I was doing a bit of testing with the phantom lag problem, and it seems that if you use an aerial before you land, the lag is eliminated (or at least minimized). I tested it by using hammer mid-air, catching the ledge and using an aerial before I landed back on the stage. When I landed, I used u-tilt. When I compared the lag to that of the phantom lag, it didn't seem to exist any longer. The lag was the same on the move as it normally would be. (FF nair as PL eliminator? I'll take that :)). I double checked it by doing a short hop and seeing if the phantom lag was still there. It wasn't. Can anyone confirm this?

After seeing all the good posts on nair, I've found myself using it A LOT more :laugh:. I don't think it auto-cancels, but to does have absurdly low amounts of landing lag, so it might as well be auto-canceling.

@ T-nuts: lol! I didn't think you did :). Thanks for your viewpoints. They've given me a new perspective on nair.

@ Asdioh: I got the reference this time! Yay! :)
 

thrillagorilla

Smash Ace
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I updated the original post with a summary of up-b. I'll get to the summary of fair later. Let me know if I missed anything :).

Edit: Yay, 100 posts!
 

Falconv1.0

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Eh, I mainly use nair when I need to go down and dair is too slow. Also sometime I throw it out there to **** with someone who's spot dodging/is Wario and is thrown off by the change up in spacing. Mind games son.
 

fromundaman

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Hmmm... I knew Ganon could do that to his phantom lag with his sideB, but being able to do it with our aerials is awesome!


Nair... I have to admit I don't use this as much as I should. When I do it's usually to mindgame. Basically, I jump, do Nair, and don't FF it until my opponent rushes me, at which point I FF and go into a Dtilt.

I rarely ever use grounded hammer... It can punish Snake's Fsmash, but seriously, how often do you see that? I'll have to try the Dthrow>hammer though.

As for aerial hammer, I love using it on people recovering from up high, especially if I know they will AD *cough* Snake *cough*, since the second swing will hit right when they get out of their AD.
Also, SH hammer can occasionally work, and FH hammer sometimes makes them shield the whiffed 1st hit, then either get hit by the second or also shield the second for a lot of shield damage.
I also try to do reverse buffered aerial hammers at times where it seems I would have Baired to bait and punish spotdodges/airdodges.
 

TechnoMonster

Smash Ace
Joined
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836
Its good to use N-air a few times a match as a mixup attack when they're not going to attack you.

Hammer is OK for punishing stuff. SWKel uses aerial hammer out of shield a LOT, its actually quite safe. schwoop schwoop
 

DFat2

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Apr 29, 2008
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284
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PR
Someone should do a guide on Phantom Lag...
Yeah, and we should also make a guide on how to use DI. :ohwell:

We don't need a guide for every little thing that comes up. A single well defined post will do just fine. Especially on a subject as abstract as Phantom Lag:

Part A-Thesis on what it is and how it occurs.

Part B-An explanation on times where you've had bad experiences with it or lost matches/won matches due to it.

Part C-Ways to better it/prevent it from happening.
Use it, seriously, discuss it and /phantom lag.
 

fromundaman

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Holy crap? Nair clashes with GA? That is awesome! (MK takes longer to get to the ground when he clashes, so we would get down first and possibly be able to get a Fsmash off.)
 

thrillagorilla

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Because I wanted to post something productive today...

Hammer Kill Percentages: No DI, center of Final Destination

Grounded/First GS/ Second GS
Mario: 83%/ 117%/ 102%
Luigi: 83%/ 116%/ 102%
Peach: 76%/ 108%/ 98%
Bowser: 94%/ 130%/ 114%
DK: 98%/ 135%/ 113%
Diddy: 82%/ 114%/ 99%
Yoshi: 88%/ 123%/ 108%
Wario: 89%/ 124%/ 107%
Link: 91%/ 125%/ 105%
Zelda: 75%/ 106%/ 95%
Sheik: 75%/ 106%/ 92%
G-dorf: 93%/ 128%/ 108%
Tink: 80%/ 113%/ 99%
Samus: 87%/ 121%/ 109%
ZSS: 76%/ 107%/ 92%
Pit: 83%/ 117%/ 100%
IC: 79%/ 111%/ 98%
ROB: 87%/ 121%/ 108%
Kirby: 72%/ 103%/ 91%
MK: 73%/ 104%/ 91%
DDD: 95%/ 132%/ 113%
Olimar: 76%/ 107%/ 93%
Fox 73%/ 104%/ 89%
Falco: 77%/ 109%/ 92%
Wolf: 87%/ 122%/ 103%
C Falcon: 90%/ 125%/ 106%
Pikachu: 76%/ 107%/ 91%
Squirtle: 68%/ 98%/ 88%
Ivy: 86%/ 120%/ 104%
Zard: 90%/ 125%/ 109%
Lucario: 84%/ 117%/ 104%
Jiggs: 65%/ 93%/ 85%
Marth: 81% / 114%/ 96%
Ike: 91%/ 127%/ 106%
Ness: 82%/ 115%/ 100%
Lucas: 81%/ 114%/ 100%
G&W: 70%/ 100%/ 89%
Snake: 96%/ 133%/ 112%
Sonic: 84%/ 117%/ 100%

And that is everything. Good grief, that took a LONG time... :)

Well, the week is coming to a close. As we are heading into the end of the week, lets think about what two moves we want to do next. Post what you want to see discussed; majority vote wins (Note: I won't officially go back to moves we've already discussed until we have cycled through everything. I will also choose what moves we go over if no one speaks up). If you missed a move's week and want to post, go ahead as long as its hasn't already been said :).
 

thrillagorilla

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Okay, so one vote for stone. Any other takers? Also, the week isn't up yet so if you have something to say about nair and Hammer, you are still more than welcome to.
 

A1lion835

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Hm...how about stone? Also a severely underestimated part of Kirby's arsenal.
I had an urge to sound like a nerd.

About hammer...you know how marths dtilt a bunch of times to bait a roll behind them for dancing blade? I was thinking we could do the same thing with dtilt or more likely ftilt, and then bait a roll and hammer:). People would hate themselves so much if they fell for that...
 

thrillagorilla

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Cute idea, A1 :). Frame-wise it's more feasible than the Marth bait (if their frame data is correct, which I'm assuming it is). The big problem comes from their disjoint, though. I don't think that a Kirby d-tilt or f-tilt warrants a roll dodge. I could be wrong, though. :laugh:.

So Stone and d-tilt so far? That's two votes. Anyone else?
 

fromundaman

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I'd say Dtilt and Stone (I've found a new love for stone for one reason: I can stone camp on PS1. I find that just about the most awesome thing ever until we find a starshot CG :laugh: ).
 

Asdioh

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I vote for d tilt.

Some people vouch for its usefulness, I'm too busy using bair and f tilt to really notice.
Play Melee against level 9 computers (they have a really lame playstyle, jabs are broken) and you'll find out how useful Kirby's Dtilt can be XD

And yes the games are different, but Kirby's dtilt is better in Brawl, except for the fact that there is no longer crouch-canceling.

Dtilt's a good move


And a Starshot CG would be amazing. *tries it out*
 

fromundaman

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Dtilt's a good move


And a Starshot CG would be amazing. *tries it out*
Agreed on both points. Sadly, there is no Starshot CG. I tried... for a long time... on just about every legal stage that *might* make it possible...
If you find one you will be my hero though.
 

thrillagorilla

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Our next moves for discussion seem to be pretty straightforward, but I don't want to call it yet seeing as we haven't yet heard from everyone that has contributed in the past. If we get a few more people (if Asdioh's post was also a vote) then I'll officially call it due to majority and we can start early. Keep in mind though, if you only voted for one move I'm going assume you were OK with whatever is decided by majority for the second move.

@ fromundaman and Asdioh: Are you both voting for star-shot then? :laugh:
 

fromundaman

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Starshot has recently disappointed me... We must never speak of it, or associate it with MK, ever again... *sob*

Seriously though, Dtilt and/or stone.
 

Falconv1.0

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Why does this board seem to call for a guide on every ****ing move in our arsenal, I must ask. Seriously, a guide on stone? Wow, scuse me while I go make a guide on bairs to make sure people aren't doing it wrong. It's not like we could compile all this info into one thread oh wait shi-
 

A1lion835

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Falcon, no one ever uses stone, or if they do, it's very rarely, and stone is actually a pretty good move -.-

And I somehow doubt, no offense to thrillagorilla, that we could make a guide on every move from this debate thread as good as mam's guide.

[sing]3 posts till I'm a smash lord, 3 posts till I'm a smash loooooord...[/sing]
 

fromundaman

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Falcon, originally, I was kind of hoping we WOULD have guides to all the specials which we could then combine into one guide by itself. Sure, it isn't necessary, but it can be helpful. Granted, not everything needs a guide, but not everyone knows the potential of each move (for example, stone is more useful than you make it seem, despite being a situational move. Still, I'll admit there isn't THAT much I could say about it... A paragraph at most.).
Then again, maybe we think of different things when we say a 'guide'. Generally speaking, every 'guide' on this board is mostly a compendium of information on specific aspects of Kirby's game, rather than actual guides to playing Kirby.
 

T-nuts

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except for the fact that there is no longer crouch-canceling.
And this is why I found dtilt to be better in melee...maybe its just me though, my playstyle focused a lot on crouch cancelling in melee because i never watched the pros play, and therefore never learned from them.
 

Falconv1.0

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Falcon, no one ever uses stone, or if they do, it's very rarely, and stone is actually a pretty good move -.-

And I somehow doubt, no offense to thrillagorilla, that we could make a guide on every move from this debate thread as good as mam's guide.

[sing]3 posts till I'm a smash lord, 3 posts till I'm a smash loooooord...[/sing]
I use stone, and I dont want a guide for it to exist. It is far too simple, lol.

I will repeat-Enemy does something dumb, down b for great justice.
 

thrillagorilla

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I guess that means the d-tilts and stones have it. Go ahead and start discussing without me, no usual giant write-up to start out this time. I won't be on again until Monday due to work (yay Easter time at the cathedral :)). I'll update the OP and title to reflect the week change, though. In any case...

ON TO DISCUSSION!!!
 

DFat1

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Play Melee against level 9 computers (they have a really lame playstyle, jabs are broken) and you'll find out how useful Kirby's Dtilt can be XD

And yes the games are different, but Kirby's dtilt is better in Brawl, except for the fact that there is no longer crouch-canceling.

Dtilt's a good move


And a Starshot CG would be amazing. *tries it out*

Dtilt is sex. Too bad MK's, DDD's, Snakes and G@W's Dtilts break it. I'm pretty sure some other characters break it as well but those where the ones that came up for now.
 

A1lion835

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Stone is awesome, unless you're on battlefield. You can use it occasionally as a substitute-shield to throw your opponent off (they won't expect it, and you can change back in time). Stone edguarding is too good. They great thing is, they have 3 options: avoid the path of stone and fall to their death, go into path of stone and airdodge, falling to their death, or getting hit by stone, stagespiking them to their death (this is character situational; it obviously won't work on jigglypuff). If your opponent gets too carried away juggling you, they get hit by stone while pretty close to the upper boundary line, especially if they're pit or ROB:). That's all I have for now.

[sing]smash lord, smash lord...[/sing]
 

Falconv1.0

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D tilt is only good if your opponents have like no range IMHO. I think any move that should be called sex should be a very useful move in just about any situation. His grabs, his bair, those are sexy as hell, ehhhhhh d tilt, just ehhhhhh.

It's main draw is that it sometimes trips people. Whoop peee.


Go ahead, name the match ups where this move really helps you, and tell me, how many of those match ups are characters that matter?
 

DFat1

Smash Rookie
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Messages
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Stone is awesome, unless you're on battlefield. You can use it occasionally as a substitute-shield to throw your opponent off (they won't expect it, and you can change back in time). Stone edguarding is too good. They great thing is, they have 3 options: avoid the path of stone and fall to their death, go into path of stone and airdodge, falling to their death, or getting hit by stone, stagespiking them to their death (this is character situational; it obviously won't work on jigglypuff). If your opponent gets too carried away juggling you, they get hit by stone while pretty close to the upper boundary line, especially if they're pit or ROB:). That's all I have for now.
If you miss stone, you're in a situation where you should distract your opponent outside the game. It's a very poor situation to be in.

[sing]smash lord, smash lord...[/sing]
It's so awesome how this matters in the absolute least when it comes to playing. I hope you don't measure people by their post counts man. Congrats on posting whenever possible to increase your post count though.

:)
 

A1lion835

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If you miss stone, you're in a situation where you should distract your opponent outside the game. It's a very poor situation to be in.
The situation where you can recover while they can't? It's possible for them to hinder you, but with 5 jumps, it's gonna be hard.

Dfat1 said:
It's so awesome how this matters in the absolute least when it comes to playing. I hope you don't measure people by their post counts man. Congrats on posting whenever possible to increase your post count though.

:)
...I'm just happy because I've been an apprentice for months. I don't judge people by their post counts, I just like the title.
 
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