The Unity Ruleset: Discussion

[Judo777]

Get close to the platform and wait for them to use their double jump. They have to double jump before they can use their glide. I am talking about the scrooging that is done on Smashville. Scrooging on any other stage raises you ledge grab count.

then do what? wait for them to use their dj then what?

 

[SaveMeJebus]

then do what? wait for them to use their dj then what?

If you see him go for it, throw out a projectile. If he doesn't go for it, he misses his chance at scrooging and he has to grab the ledge.

 

[Life]

Sonic outruns MK scrooging AFAIK, no projectile required. Spring is just useful.

 

[John12346]

I'm gonna put out there that it's not as simple as you think to stop MK before he actually gets under the stage. Keep in mind he can alter his trajectory very sharply and easily when gliding, so he can easily compensate his movements for any projectiles that may be headed his way.

 

[Judo777]

If you see him go for it, throw out a projectile. If he doesn't go for it, he misses his chance at scrooging and he has to grab the ledge.

So you wait for him to use his DJ what if he then triple jumps instead..... or quadruple jumps? you have to be prett close for that to work.

At least 3 of the characters you listed can't throw their projectiles offstage without dying.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

So you wait for him to use his DJ what if he then triple jumps instead..... or quadruple jumps? you have to be prett close for that to work.

At least 3 of the characters you listed can't throw their projectiles offstage without dying.

What are you talking about? Shoot your projectiles towards MK while you are grounded on stage. Only Sonic has to do it off stage. You have enough time to react from the time you see him pull out his wings to the time he starts to glide especially if he jumps more than twice.

 

[Zankoku]

Wait, why does he have to use his jump immediately after leaving the ledge?

 

[Judo777]

What are you talking about. Shoot your projectiles towards MK while you are grounded on stage. Only Sonic has to do it off stage. You have enough time to react from the time you see him pull out his wings to the time he starts to glide especially if he jumps more than twice.

Oh you are on the stage? Then what happens when he starts his glide.......... below the stage? You know he can actually airdodge once then use a jump or 2 and glide under right?

Infact MK can glide under FD and make it to the ledge if hes been edge hogged out of SL. SV is alot smaller AND he doesn't HAVE to make it to ledge height because when he does a normal glide he can have 2 jumps and a recovery move to top it off (like a SL that is autocanceled). So he can drop below the ledge and glide far enough to easily make it to the other side.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

Oh you are on the stage? Then what happens when he starts his glide.......... below the stage? You know he can actually airdodge once then use a jump or 2 and glide under right?

Infact MK can glide under FD and make it to the ledge if hes been edge hogged out of SL. SV is alot smaller AND he doesn't HAVE to make it to ledge height because when he does a normal glide he can have 2 jumps and a recovery move to top it off (like a SL that is autocanceled). So he can drop below the ledge and glide far enough to easily make it to the other side.

Then get him before he lands on the platform. The only reason Scrooging is a problem is because it doesn't use up any ledge grabs. On any other stage, it does

 

[Zankoku]

Are you referring to the presence of a Ledge Grab Limit? If so, how does the fact that Meta Knight grabs the ledge at roughly 1/10th the rate he normally would, when scrooging, hinder him?

 

[Judo777]

Then get him before he lands on the platform. The only reason Scrooging is a problem is because it doesn't use up any ledge grabs. On any other stage, it does

So go OUT offstage on the platform and GET HIM? You realize thats the problem in the first place right? Anyone can see MK is scrooging and get to the plat before him but NO ONE wants to be out there while MK is there. If you beat him to the platform he can use up one ledge grab then get on stage and now you are about to be offstage or above MK both of which are awful choices.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

So go OUT offstage on the platform and GET HIM? You realize thats the problem in the first place right? Anyone can see MK is scrooging and get to the plat before him but NO ONE wants to be out there while MK is there. If you beat him to the platform he can use up one ledge grab then get on stage and now you are about to be offstage or above MK both of which are awful choices.

All of this is done on stage with a projectile.

@ Ankoku, You could always lower the LGL for characters that have multiple jumps and glides

 

[ぱみゅ]

I think Jebus is trying to say "wait to snipe him with your projectile onstage while MK is moving upwards aiming for the higher platform, if he does not go for it, he'll increase his LedgeGrab counter" so, "he either gets hit or surpass the LGL"...

/devil's advocate

 

[Tesh]

What Judo said, its not that scrooging (or even perfect planking) is 100% unbeatable, its just a massively unfair risk/reward ratio. You can't really allow that sort of thing and then say "MK goes even with other characters"

Which is why I think the LGL is still to high for MK. He gets far too much breathing room with 35 ledge grabs. Maybe Jebus's ridiculous idea to chase MK offstage would work if you didn't have to flawlessly outwit him 35 times to stop him.

 

[Judo777]

Oh so it turns out MK can actually drop from the platform and airdodge then begin the glide below the stage glide completely under the stage and land on the platform on the other side with no recovery moves only using 3 of his 5 jumps.

If he begins the glide from the ledge level the full length of the platform away he can glide under the entire stage and land on the platform from the other side without using ANY additional jumps other than the 1 to start the glide.

So if you can stop MK from getting to the platform without using any recovery moves and at most 3 of his 5 jumps then more power to you but most characters cannot.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

Oh so it turns out MK can actually drop from the platform and airdodge then begin the glide below the stage glide completely under the stage and land on the platform on the other side with no recovery moves only using 3 of his 5 jumps.

If he begins the glide from the ledge level the full length of the platform away he can glide under the entire stage and land on the platform from the other side without using ANY additional jumps other than the 1 to start the glide.

So if you can stop MK from getting to the platform without using any recovery moves and at most 3 of his 5 jumps then more power to you but most characters cannot.

Any character with a decent projectile can shoot him down before he lands on the platform. I'm not saying he can't still jump onto the platform. He just can't do it with out taking some damage.

 

[Tin Man]

atm, I can only think of Snake stopping scrooging really effectively because of his c4 (put it on the platform on SV).

Pit and ROB could potentially work, but snake's seems actually effective.

Snake can even drop grenades on the platform, and time them well while trying to use his other projectiles (mortar, nakita, 2nd nade, c4) to stop MK.

 

[Conviction]

Oh my god base god, why the hell is every thread filled with people arguing with jebus???

-___-

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Oh my god base god, why the hell is every thread filled with people arguing with jebus???

-___-

Because people haven't gotten to my level yet, where they just put him on the ignore list.

 

[WindMajor]

BRC has spread out for Canada? Cool.

When can Puerto Ricans begin applying? Any time soon?

 

[Judo777]

Any character with a decent projectile can shoot him down before he lands on the platform. I'm not saying he can't still jump onto the platform. He just can't do it with out taking some damage.

No dude they can't that's like saying anyone with a decent projectile can shoot MK while hes in the air which just isn't true. Sometimes space depending few characters can shoot MK. Mario can't shoot MK when hes way offstage in neutral.

 

[Luigisama]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o0Y9pRs4zFw&feature=related

Just for a better visual.

 

[Tin Man]

man I thought you guys were safe.

xD

BRC has spread out for Canada? Cool.

When can Puerto Ricans begin applying? Any time soon?

I can't speak for the BBR-RC on this one, but It might make more sense to try and include Mexico (not sure if that's even feasible at the moment) and go for a North American Ruleset, for the sake of having unity over an entire continent.

 

[Reizilla]

Because Puerto Rico isn't part of the North American continent...

 

[SaveMeJebus]

No dude they can't that's like saying anyone with a decent projectile can shoot MK while hes in the air which just isn't true. Sometimes space depending few characters can shoot MK. Mario can't shoot MK when hes way offstage in neutral.

The difference between MK in the air and MK gliding is that MK can't air dodge while he is gliding.

@ BC4629, ADHD didn't even charge his peanuts. He could have charged his peanuts and released them when he started to glide. If he used more than one jump, he could have canceled the charge and started all over again.

 

[Tin Man]

Because Puerto Rico isn't part of the North American continent...

Well dayum. My apologies. Then yeah, I guess there's a glimmer of hope (just not now tho)

 

[ぱみゅ]

There's probably only 1 single mexican guy consistently posting in these threads/boards, and he also happens to be a TO...
And strongly disagrees with some small parts of the BRC Ruleset...

Still, he might give Unity a chance....

 

[Tin Man]

Who is this person, Metakill?

 

[ぱみゅ]

I hope you are joking about that.....











If you are not, you can just read my location...

 

[ElDominio]

Hey look!
I'm another Puerto Rican!

We are located on Mars, hence we are part of the Martian Continent.

 

[Tin Man]

I hope you are joking about that.....











If you are not, you can just read my location...

lol. Alright, good to know.

 

[Luigisama]

@ BC4629, ADHD didn't even charge his peanuts. He could have charged his peanuts and released them when he started to glide. If he used more than one jump, he could have canceled the charge and started all over again.[/QUOTE]

Exactly. Also he could have thrown a naner to where mk was going.

 

[Jack Kieser]

Exactly. He could have thrown a naner under the stage and it would have stayed there and tripped MK while he was glid--

Oh, no he couldn't. Face it. With 5 jumps + 4 recovery options, you'd have to throw out multiple items at the same time to cover all of MK's available approach / recovery options. Even if you know where he's going to be, he also knows where he's going to be, and the only way you can really shut him down would be to either throw from point-blank range or to forcibly intercept him, which will probably get you gimped.

MK's scrooging is stupid.

 

[Tesh]

The point Jebus was making is that you simply need to force him to grab the ledge, by interupting his glide. Which projectiles actually would do, assuming you can safely get one below/off the stage.

With such a large LGL though, it won't make much of a difference unless you can then punish his ledge game and never get read/gimped while trying.

 

[Zankoku]

Given the number of times a player would normally grab the ledge with any given character, lowering the LGL by much more than it is set to already for Meta Knight might as well be introducing the rule "if the time runs out, Meta Knight loses", which is a pretty dumb rule.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

You could make a LGL based off of how many mid air jumps a character has

 

[Zankoku]

Okay. Give me a multiplier for Pokémon Trainer.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

Okay. Give me a multiplier for Pokémon Trainer.

Two out of his three characters only have a double jump so I think he should get as many ledge grabs as the amount you would give someone with one double jump.I doubt anyone is going to pick up Pokemon trainer and start stalling because the fact that Charizard gets more ledge grabs than any other character with multiple jumps The current rule set gives him as many ledge grabs as every body else.

 

[Zankoku]

The current ruleset also gives Kirby, Jigglypuff, and Pit as many ledge grabs as everybody else. Are there any complaints about planking Kirby or Jigglypuff players? If not, then it's hard to claim any sort of relation between number of jumps and ability to ledge-stall while minimizing ledge-grabs. You might be able to make half of a case on having multiple jumps AND the ability to glide, but that's still pretty shaky. Meanwhile, it also passes over characters that have been notable at ledge-stalling decently effectively - G&W and ROB.

 

[Akaku94]

I personally still think that MK is the only one that really needs an LGL, since nobody else can stall perfectly (or at least ridiculously close to perfectly). MK needs every nerf we can give him, but the other potential candidates (DK, Pit, and a couple others) have other ways to counter their stalling techniques. If it ain't broke, don't fix it, and MK's stalling is the only one that's broken...