The Unity Ruleset: Discussion

[SaveMeJebus]

The current ruleset also gives Kirby, Jigglypuff, and Pit as many ledge grabs as everybody else. Are there any complaints about planking Kirby or Jigglypuff players? If not, then it's hard to claim any sort of relation between number of jumps and ability to ledge-stall while minimizing ledge-grabs. You might be able to make half of a case on having multiple jumps AND the ability to glide, but that's still pretty shaky. Meanwhile, it also passes over characters that have been notable at ledge-stalling decently effectively - G&W and ROB.

Just because it hasn't happened doesn't mean it can't. You have seen Will vs. Rich Brown haven't you? Put the LGL at 45 and take away 5 ledge grabs for each additional jump a character has after his second jump.

 

[DRDN]

So then kirby only gets like 20 lgs in an 8 minute match?

He's not mk and can't recover without that ledge very well his up b is his only vertical recovery and those last 2 jumps cover the distance of a single normal jump at best

Your basically screwing kirby because you have a problem with MK

 

[SaveMeJebus]

So then kirby only gets like 20 lgs in an 8 minute match?

He's not mk and can't recover without that ledge very well his up b is his only vertical recovery and those last 2 jumps cover the distance of a single normal jump at best

Your basically screwing kirby because you have a problem with MK

He gets 25 ledge grabs. Also, how often do you think any player in any match is going to go over 20 ledge grabs especially players who main characters with multiple jumps?

 

[Akaku94]

I do, since Kirby's recovery is strongly vertical. Hitting the ledge is the safest recovery, but stalling there is out of the question...

 

[Zankoku]

Just because it hasn't happened doesn't mean it can't. You have seen Will vs. Rich Brown haven't you? Put the LGL at 45 and take away 5 ledge grabs for each additional jump a character has after his second jump.

So we get complaints about Donkey Kong, a character with two jumps and an Up+B that has relatively low vertical recovery potential?

Before Kirby and Jigglypuff?

And you're trying to use this AGAINST my case?

 

[SaveMeJebus]

So we get complaints about Donkey Kong, a character with two jumps and an Up+B that has relatively low vertical recovery potential?

Before Kirby and Jigglypuff?

And you're trying to use this AGAINST my case?

If a character with only one double jump can stall out on the ledge, it should be easier for a character with multiple jumps to do it.

 

[Zankoku]

This must be why the two most known instances of ledge-stalling winning the game involve Meta Knight and Donkey Kong.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

I'll get pit and rob vids

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Just because it hasn't happened doesn't mean it can't. You have seen Will vs. Rich Brown haven't you? Put the LGL at 45 and take away 5 ledge grabs for each additional jump a character has after his second jump.

You mean how he did the correct method to stop planking and then decided to stop doing it.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

You mean how he did the correct method to stop planking and then decided to stop doing it.

All I'm saying is that we have a LGL for a reason. Characters with multiple jumps can abuse the ledge grab limit by using all of their multiple jumps before re-grabbing the ledge. It is stupid to give characters a limit on ledge grabs that they are never going to exceed. You have to be trying to go over the current ledge grab limit in order to go over it.

 

[DRDN]

The only char who can SAFELY stall with his multiple jumps is MK all the others have downsides that make it not safe

Your way makes it worse for chars who's redeaming quality is that they have more jumps it doesn't take into account how weak they are offstage against an onstage opponent

Again kirby NEEDS that ledge he can't up b on stage because not only does that move have slow as hell lag it causes him to have (rlag?)

And in a planking match DK(2 jumps) destroys kirby (5 jumps)

 

[SaveMeJebus]

Does Kirby really need more than 25 ledge grabs to safely get back on stage? I can post up videos of top level Kirbys winning/losing matches without exceeding 20 ledge grabs. which ones would you like to see?

 

[WindMajor]

Just because it happens once doesn't mean it'll happen every time.

Don't bother looking for videos, Kirby needs all the ledge grabs he can get.

 

[Jack Kieser]

Jebus, it doesn't matter how many jumps it takes for Kirby to recover, nor does it matter how many ledge grabs he needs in an average match because Kirby is not causing problems. We don't make rules when there is no reason to do so. Remember: discreet, enforceable, and warranted. The fact of the matter is that grabbing the ledge is not broken. It's just not. In and of itself, no character breaks the game by grabbing the ledge. No character, in high-level play, is unapproachable on the ledge...

...with one, singular exception. A global ledge grab limit is nice and politically correct, but it breaks the criterion of being warranted entirely, because no other character except MK causes problems on the ledge, regardless of how and when they throw out U-airs. How many jumps a character has is irrelevant, because that's not what causes a problem. Having a great U-air isn't even a problem.

The problem is having multiple jumps AND a great U-air, AND a super-gimpy D-air, AND a glide, AND an invincible recovery move, AND 3 emergency recovery moves, one of which transitions into a second glide. No other character has that range of options and abilities, and so no other character causes problems on the ledge that can't be dealt with in some reasonable manner.

Global ledge grab limits are unwarranted, scrubby, politically-motivated rules that have no place in competitive Smash.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Are we worried about Kirby planking or Jiggs planking? No, closest case people get is G&W when not talking about planking. And he had to be very linear to do it in which it's perfectly stoppable.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

A character that is on the ledge is as powerful as a character who is walk off camping. It's beatable, but the risk outweighs the reward. Every character needs a ledge grab limit

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

So Zelda, Link, Lucario, Fox, Falco, Wolf, Ike, Snake, Ice Climbers, all need a LGL because they will plank their way to victory if they get the lead?

 

[SaveMeJebus]

Again, if a DK could do it, I don't see how they can't.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

That DK did it because the Olimar stopped doing the method that did stop it.

Your also assuming all character are equal, this is a huge fallacy if you know how the cast changes from character to character.

Also tell me how Lucario planks people, if you know how they can you can share it.

 

[ぱみゅ]

I found pretty ironical how Jebus wants to set an objective LGL, while everyone else either just disagrees or can't come up with something better.

 

[Ghostbone]

The current ruleset also gives Kirby, Jigglypuff, and Pit as many ledge grabs as everybody else. Are there any complaints about planking Kirby or Jigglypuff players?

Jigglypuff's planking is so gay >.>
It really only screws over spacies though so it's not that bad lol.

A character that is on the ledge is as powerful as a character who is walk off camping. It's beatable, but the risk outweighs the reward. Every character needs a ledge grab limit

The risk of approaching a Diddy behind a banana outweighs the reward, ban that too?
Planking is strong, but I don't think it's as strong as walk off camping. (And if it is, the precedent would be to ban all stages with ledges. I mean we didn't create some limit to battle walk off camping, we banned the stages)

Are we worried about Kirby planking or Jiggs planking? No, closest case people get is G&W when not talking about planking. And he had to be very linear to do it in which it's perfectly stoppable.

Depends on the character really, planking screws over a lot of lower tiered characters, and doesn't take any effort to do. So is it really a skill we want to test?

The main fault with a LGL, and the reason I disagree with anyone but MK having one, is that characters are forced off the ledge when they're not planking, and simply trying to find an opening to get off, and as such they'll get punished when without a LGL they probably wouldn't have been (or not punished as hard anyway).
Anyone who plays DK will be able to tell you how hard it is to get back on-stage against many characters. When they can just sit on-stage and punish all your options to get back on-stage, with a LGL you have no choice but to put yourself in a bad situation.
Without a LGL, your opponent has to pressure you to get off the ledge, giving you more openings to get back on-stage (which is overall safer anyway, it's just getting there that's the problem)

Again, if a DK could do it, I don't see how they can't.

DK's very different to a lot of characters, it doesn't make any sense to say other characters can do what DK can do.


Anyway, having a LGL based on how many jumps you have is ridiculous,

 

[SaveMeJebus]

Diddy's banana disappears. That is not something that happens with a ledge. Why ban stages when you could add a ledge grab limit?

 

[Zankoku]

I found pretty ironical how Jebus wants to set an objective LGL, while everyone else either just disagrees or can't come up with something better.

How is it objective when there is absolutely no connection between number of jumps and observed planking ability? More people are accepting of the current LGL - did I just come up with something better by suggesting what's in place right now?

Cut the snide remarks and back up your proposals, instead of just claiming that **** can happen and banning it just in case. You don't see me carrying cans of elephant repellent spray everywhere I go.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Don't get me wrong, what I meant is that LGL is subjective per se, any number there is subjective, and he's trying to find a logic behind it and a solid number based on something concrete, like number of jumps or whatever, while most people just put a number based on how much they'd "think" it would be enough... and it might increase/decrease as tests gets done (because there's people testing this kind of stuff, right?)


lol that's a lot of edits!
I need to sleep....

 

[FoxFireMage]

How about we limit the amount of ledge grabs with a certain amount of time? Something like 10 ledge grabs within 30 sec. We can come up with a punishment later

 

[MechaWave]

It'd be too complicated for some. Why not just get rid of it altogether except Meta Knight's? Like someone said before: If it ain't broke, don't fix it, and Meta Knight is broke.

 

[FoxFireMage]

Yeah but MK (while we should ban the bat) isn't the only one that can ledge grab the whole game

 

[Jack Kieser]

But Meta Knight is the only one who causes problems when he does grab the ledge.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

But Meta Knight is the only one who causes problems when he does grab the ledge.

Evidently DK can too.

My suggestion:

Characters that "can plank" but can only stall with it [they can't attack if the opponent keeps a distance] such as MK, DK, Marth, GW should have a lower limit
Characters that "can plank" and not just stall with it such as Samus, ROB, Yoshi, Pit should have a moderate limit
Every other character should have no limit at all

Note that [because I know some dumbtard will make the argument] that it's not an "artificial nerf" to some characters but to put a limitation on something that is nothing short of abusing a grey-area of the ruleset [because "planking" can't be objectively defined and doesn't match the explanation on "stalling" in the ruleset but still adds no options to a character *other* than to stall]. This needs to be limited and discouraged, regardless of character choice. If Will has made anything clear at Whobo it's that the LGL is not a character specific issue.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

It'd be too complicated for some. Why not just get rid of it altogether except Meta Knight's? Like someone said before: If it ain't broke, don't fix it, and Meta Knight is broke.

If MK is broken, then why can't anyone just pick him up and win a national?

 

[Grim Tuesday]

...Because it's limited?

If there was no LGL, then bad players could do REALLY well with him just by knowing how to plank.

@Gheb: "Evidently DK can too."? What are you basing this on? ONE match where a DK timed out an Olimar who was hardly even trying to stop it?

 

[Ussi]

Dk has 1 match...

MK has Multiple matches and players...

 

[~ Gheb ~]

If there was no LGL, then bad players could do REALLY well with him just by knowing how to plank.

Not if a better ruleset is in place.

@Gheb: "Evidently DK can too."? What are you basing this on? ONE match where a DK timed out an Olimar who was hardly even trying to stop it?

Do we really need to derail another national tournament with something *we've already seen to be broken* just to have more evidence for what everybody already knows?
DKs planking might be "beatable" in theory [but so is MKs, mind you] but the risk/reward is still drastically in DKs favor to an extent where it can easily be considered anti-competitive. Why do you draw the line right after MK? Because it fits your ******** pro-ban agenda better?

 

[Grim Tuesday]

No, because without a ledge-grab limit, Meta Knight becomes stupidly broken.

I challenge someone to win a tournament with DK by abusing his planking. I don't seem to remember Will winning the tournament that he planked Rich Brown in, and wasn't his entire goal to show how broken planking is?

 

[SaveMeJebus]

No, because without a ledge-grab limit, Meta Knight becomes stupidly broken.

I challenge someone to win a tournament with DK by abusing his planking. I don't seem to remember Will winning the tournament that he planked Rich Brown in, and wasn't his entire goal to show how broken planking is?

He made it further than he should have beating out someone he wouldn't have if there was a ledge grab limit.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Yeah, and I'm sure he got further by using Giant Punch than he would've without using Giant Punch. That doesn't make Giant Punch broken.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

No, because without a ledge-grab limit, Meta Knight becomes stupidly broken.

Not if a better ruleset is in place.

I challenge someone to win a tournament with DK by abusing his planking. I don't seem to remember Will winning the tournament that he planked Rich Brown in, and wasn't his entire goal to show how broken planking is?

What MK has ever won a tourney via planking?

And yes, his entire goal seems to have been to show planking being broken. Planking. Not "MK-planking" or "Charatcer-XY-planking" but just the tactic of planking itself. Had he continued to actually plank against 4DHD in the same manner he did against R1ch Br0wn he would've beaten a player that he never beat before in tourney and that he never outplaced either, after already taking out a guy with it that can easily be called a threat at any [inter-]national tourney.
It's not a character specific problem, it's the tactic.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

Yeah, and I'm sure he got further by using Giant Punch than he would've without using Giant Punch. That doesn't make Giant Punch broken.

This isn't some attack. This is a stalling tactic that every character has and can abuse. Sure you can stop it (you can even stop MK), but the risk outweighs the reward.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

@Gheb
M2K won Schools in Session via planking. Prove that Will would've beaten ADHD.

It's a legitimate tactic because it isn't broken. There is no reason to limit any more than there is a reason to limit forms of on-stage camping. The "this person placed higher than they should have" argument makes no sense, because you are assuming the standard is that the character cannot plank rather than the other way around.

I have very little evidence that Meta Knight's planking is broken. You have very little evidence that DK's is broken. So why don't we just not have a ledge-grab limit at all and see how that goes? Let me make it clear that I don't support an MK LGL either, but if he isn't banned, I think it is necessary to stop him from being broken.

@Jebus. Come back after you learn the definition of stalling.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

@Gheb
M2K won Schools in Session via planking. Prove that Will would've beaten ADHD.

It's a legitimate tactic because it isn't broken. There is no reason to limit any more than there is a reason to limit forms of on-stage camping. The "this person placed higher than they should have" argument makes no sense, because you are assuming the standard is that the character cannot plank rather than the other way around.

I have very little evidence that Meta Knight's planking is broken. You have very little evidence that DK's is broken. So why don't we just not have a ledge-grab limit at all and see how that goes? Let me make it clear that I don't support an MK LGL either, but if he isn't banned, I think it is necessary to stop him from being broken.

@Jebus. Come back after you learn the definition of stalling.

How much more experience does every other MK have with planking over a player like Will? It didn't seem like will knew what he was doing. He was just trying to get as many ledge grabs as possible