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The Unity Ruleset: Discussion

Tesh

Smash Hero
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Is Delfino legal at Apex? I don't see how Ps2 is worse than that. They both use random, but warned transformations and put in situations that can test otherwise useless skills. Both require (or encourage) you to use elements that aren't present in any other legal stage.

I don't see whats so wrong with altering game mechanics. If you play ignorantly on Delfino's transformations, you get punished just as hard or harder than on Ps2. Its just...simple stage knowledge. Its not even as intricate as learning all the tilt patterns on lylat.
 

Alex Strife

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Player-1 : He never said that.

Then you probably need to explain how you think the game should be played, because banning all 3 stages without giving detailed reasons doesn't make you look good. I'm not saying you're wrong, personally as a Snake main I'm happy that I don't have to waste a ban on Brinstar or RC, I have other CPs than PS2 that I use when people ban PS2 against me anyway, but I'm curious as to your full reasoning.
That is what he said. He wanted me to explain my reason and I did. I explained why I felt that way. I know you do not agree and you want to debate it out. I had this same debate with others and the Apex staff and we already decided on what would be best for the tournament.


Sorry if that sounds hard its just that I wanted to say one thing and leave it be. The people that I had to convince were the people that are helping me run the tournament. I can also include that some were in the Unity group and in the BBR.
 

Ussi

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Delfino doesn't really alter game mechanics.. It just has water... And walkoffs..

Not the same as altering gravity and traction

:phone:
 

Alex Strife

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I am not here to start drama I was only here to respond about what we did as a group and why. I'll try to ask someone else if they want to post. I am not big on debating on forums when I can just contact the people I need to in person or on aim.

In the end we all agreed that it is VERY doubtful that people will be discouraged from Apex. We took this and knew it would be a risk but it was something we all were ok with taking.
 

Player-1

Smash Legend
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Apr 27, 2008
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Rainbow Cruise
Player-1 : He never said that.
/QUOTE]

Then you probably need to explain how you think the game should be played, because banning all 3 stages without giving detailed reasons doesn't make you look good. I'm not saying you're wrong, personally as a Snake main I'm happy that I don't have to waste a ban on Brinstar or RC, I have other CPs than PS2 that I use when people ban PS2 against me anyway, but I'm curious as to your full reasoning.

but he did say that...

I IMed one of my friends who was right on the fence about coming to Apex and after I told him RC was banned he said he probably wouldn't come (unsure if he was joking, but i wouldn't put it past him as it is his [and my] favorite stage). Just saying.
 

Alex Strife

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Sorry I just cannot take that seriously. Only because there are so many reasons for people to attend. Unless there is a huge outcry I do not seeing the group changing their reasons. I think this is going to make the matches a lot better for us.

If I missed that point I am sorry Player-1. Trying to talk at this hour is a little much.
 

Player-1

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It was just the fact that he was already on the fence before that (mostly because of money issues), just the ban of RC just slightly tipped it into a "no", not that there isn't many amazing reasons to come which I'm positive there will be.
 

Alex Strife

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I am sad to hear he wont go. I do not think a CP is a reason not to go. Money Issues are usually what happens to most people and its understandable. I still think a stage being banned is not a good reason to not go to a tournament. Vice Versa also. If I did not go to tournaments that had stages off/on I would never be at events cept 1 time a year.
 

Player-1

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Yeah, it's not THE reason he's not coming (which he still might) and not coming just because a CP reason became banned isn't a good reason to come, I 100% agree and I'm sure he does to, but when you're already 50/50 on coming just because of price a lone then there's that tipping point that can make it something as little as 49.999999/50.000001 (hope I put enough 0's there >.>)
 

Maharba the Mystic

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i got a question, is everyone else getting exhausted from all the arguements that come and go on this site? "this character sucks/no he doesn't, this MU is this way/no it's that way, this character is here on the tier list/why not here here or here, this stage is legit/no it isn't, etc."? i feel like all of us get so uneccessarily worked up over all of this when in the end, we just go play the game how we feel like, whether it be through the UNITY RULESET, APEX, MK banned/legal, RC and brinstar banned/legal, lgl/no lgl, and all the other crazy stuff we argue about all day. i mean can't we be happy that we are one of the biggest and most active gaming communities in VG history and either all just be happy with our ruleset (while calmly and politely critiquing instead of our usual brash nature) or multiple rulesets/opinions? seriously, we all need to chill out (and this is coming from maharba the mystic, im easily like the biggest arguer for pit out of any pit main but i acknowledge even my own futility in trying to change peeps minds). i mean seriously when we don't agree with other people's rulesets and such, we need to really work on being civil about it, i mean just because it's the internet, don't mean that real people aren't the ones typing back you know?
 
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Now I'm considering not going to Apex 2012.

PS2 <3



Strife, how many starter stages will there be?
 

Alex Strife

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Well I guess that is too many people for me.


Look if you are not going cause that stage is banned. I apologize. Like I said before we felt this would be best for an international event. We feel that this event will benefit from this stagelist. We are not trying to set any trends ...most qualifiers in the US are using Unity. We just feel with the amount of talent it would be best.
 

Player-3

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Well I guess that is too many people for me.


Look if you are not going cause that stage is banned. I apologize. Like I said before we felt this would be best for an international event. We feel that this event will benefit from this stagelist. We are not trying to set any trends ...most qualifiers in the US are using Unity. We just feel with the amount of talent it would be best.
i don't like to type wall of texts

so i'm just going to say sarcasm is a very powerful object on the internet, and while i really don't like rainbow cruise being banned, it would not stop me from going in the slightest, simply because i must meet stingers and get my high five from him.
 

Bizkit047

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May 16, 2008
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I don't really think a ruleset in general, much less a stage, should stop people from ever going to a tourney (unless the ruleset is hilariously awful). Doesn't mean everyone will agree with the ruleset change, though. I know some crazy people who actually CP MKs to RC.
 
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>.> Apparently Apex now has Brinstar, PS2, AND now RC banned from the stage list.

Discuss.
This just in: Alex Strife is a gigantic scrub.

...Oh wait, this isn't news.

Apex is apparently filled with a bunch of whiners who don't know how to play stages.
Again, this isn't news.

*proxy BPC post asking why any of those stages is REMOTELY banworthy*
You forgot the "****ING" and the "STUPID TO". :laugh:

There are MUCH better ways to gather data than using the likely biggest Brawl national to date as a test subject.
This. Look, what if APEX, instead of banning three normally legal stages, lowering the number of starters, and giving us nothing new... What if instead of that, it legalized Japes and Norfair and maybe gave us a second stage ban? Would people be appluading "trying something new"? No, of course not! They'd be *****ing and screaming, "Why would you ruin APEX like this?!". The whole "we should test this" argument is as vacuously stupid as the "It's to coax europeans and the japanese to show up" argument. :glare:

Hey all,

Bizkit - its ok I meant it as a way of starting discussion you have nothing to apologize for.

As far as the rule yes it is true I am banning RC / Brin / PS2 for Apex 2012.

I want people to know that myself and the Apex staff have discussed this in great length. This is not to cater to any out of country players but it was an agreement we made collectively.

We felt that those three stages were too extreme to be used in the Apex 2012 event. I, speaking for only myself, expressed that stages like these can possibly take away from who wins and focuses more on the stages themselves.
This just in: Alex Strife is on the intellectual level, when it comes to game design, of SaveMeJebus.

Why doesn't anyone with any influence in the community get even the very basics of design?

Well I do not think PS2 is a viable stage. I think the transformations take away from how the game is played. I also do not want to get into it for fear of BPC LOL
Guess what? What you think is stupid. Tournament after tournament after tournament has shown that PS2 is a complete and utter non-issue. It's shown that, once you get used to the hazards, gameplay is not negatively impacted, and sometimes even flat-out enhanced! I know, I know, you think it takes away from how the game is supposed to be played. I'm sorry, but you're just wrong. Objectively, factually wrong.

Look if you are not going cause that stage is banned. I apologize. Like I said before we felt this would be best for an international event. We feel that this event will benefit from this stagelist. We are not trying to set any trends ...most qualifiers in the US are using Unity. We just feel with the amount of talent it would be best.
WHY!? WHY WHY WHY WHY WHY?!?

Look, Alex, I really don't want to tarnish your reputation as a player, ruleset designer, or TO, but I can't help but notice that you don't spend particularly much time in the stage discussion forums, or paying much attention to what the people who are constantly looking into the subject have to say on the matter. Rather, you've been going with your own personal (flawed) opinions, your own prejudices, and the uneducated public opinion, and I don't think I'm overstepping my bounds one bit when I claim that this makes you a worse TO.

Also, gratz on now running a tournament which is still more conservative than the new German ruleset, which also bans RC and Brinstar.
 

Overswarm

is laughing at you
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I boycott tournaments with stupid rules and too mayn banned stages all the time. :B
 

Maharba the Mystic

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stop your *****ing, it is his tourney that he and HIS sponsers are putting up the cash for in all this, the fact is they GET to have the say because they are paying us to show them what they want themselves and their fans to see. so if they feel that they don't want to watch those stages, they are paying to watch us play on other stages, well damn (lol) then we would be breaking contract to play on those stages.

tl:dr

as xyro would say

DEAL WITH IT


edit:

not saying i don't want Ps2 legal, i love that stage, it buffs my character by a lot. but the fact is if i win and they are paying me the big money, then damn ill do what im payed for
 

Overswarm

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Messages
21,181
That's not really how it works. TOs can do whatever they want with their tournament, but people are allowed and should complain incessantly about rule changes that aren't merited.
 

stingers

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Oct 21, 2006
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lol it would be the stage select crew...

y'all have to realize that you're like...a drop in a puddle as far as apex is concerned. if you want a boycott to be effective, you have to convince a large amount of people to join you. otherwise, the only person your hurting by boycotting is yourself
 

Bizkit047

Smash Lord
Joined
May 16, 2008
Messages
1,632
That's not really how it works. TOs can do whatever they want with their tournament, but people are allowed and should complain incessantly about rule changes that aren't merited.
This x9000.

In the end it is up to the TO, but bad rule changes should be debated with against the TO anyway. If a player truly cannot handle the ruleset though, that is their choice not to attend. However, I don't find it acceptable to openly boycott a tourney just because of a rule change, as that is not fair to the TO who puts in hard work to get a successful tourney.

If you want to announce that you won't attend Apex because you can't CP PS2/Brinstar/RC, then that's fine, as long as you don't try to discourage others from coming. Doing so shows that you have no interest in helping the community grow.
 

Overswarm

is laughing at you
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Messages
21,181
However, I don't find it acceptable to openly boycott a tourney just because of a rule change, as that is not fair to the TO who puts in hard work to get a successful tourney.
I don't know owe them anything.
 

Jack Kieser

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Jan 11, 2008
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BPC and Overswarm are both making incredibly valid points here, and it's important to recognize that.

First of all, Overswarm hit the nail on the head about being able to call out Alex on perceived mistakes. For whatever reason, there seems to be an incredible double-standard going on here in terms of when it's OK to complain about a TO's decision-making process. Do all of you, after all, have such short memories that you don't remember when the Unity Ruleset was first released? At the same time as it's announcement, we were informed that a number of large-scale tournaments would be using the ruleset. In context, the Unity Ruleset thread was nothing more than a master thread announcing the ruleset decisions of a number of TOs, at the time.

And it was a cluster**** for a while. People were complaining often about decision after decision. But not once did anyone post "hey, guys, the ruleset and how to run the tournament is the TO's decision, so stop criticizing them". No, back then, it was perfectly OK to complain about a TO's decision-making process.

Why not now? Because Alex is making a ruleset that the people defending him agree with, most likely. Personal bias, in other words.

It's never OK to stifle debate just because you agree with the last argument put in the public space. Alex has made a decision, and he has made it publicly. That means that the fallout will also be public, and he has to deal with that. If that makes his namesearching over the next few weeks particularly painful, well, those are the consequences of the decisions he's made. But, under no circumstances is he to be absolved from those consequences entirely just because he's a TO. If anything, that just heightens his responsibility to accept them.

As for BPC, he also makes a very valid point. Alex has made a decision to change his ruleset to accomplish A, B, and C. If A == "removing stages that unfairly affect battle", then removing PS2 is counterproductive, and demonstrably so; I know it is because it's been demonstrated before in a variety of post by BPC and others from the Stage Forum crew who have cited match videos, discussion threads, game theory, etc. Alex can make whatever decisions he wants to, but he should also be honest in qualifying them. A PS2 ban (as well as RC and Brinstar) is a subjectively based ban, to be sure, and it would be better for Alex if he just came out and said it. He's still the TO; his word is still law. It's just less disingenuous if he doesn't lie about his intentions. Remember: in the words of Daniel Patrick Moynihan, "everyone is entitled to their own opinions, but they are not entitled to their own facts". Just because Alex thinks PS2 (RC / Brinstar) has Quality X, Y, or Z, that doesn't make it true, and it's his job as TO to prove his decisions more than any of us do, by the very nature of his position of power.
 

Alex Strife

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BPC - I have said many times I respect your opinion but disagree. I have not called you stupid nor been disrespectful to you in anyway yet you are to me? Kinda shocking since I speak with you on aim and you do not act this way. In regards to me being on the boards. I do lurk and I read but , as you know, I share my own opinion of how the game is and how conservatism has always been best in this game. As a way to cut the ice I'd only say I wonder what you would be like when Pound first banned Mute City.

OS is right. I do have a right to change rules but also I have to deal with the comments people make. Regardless I came to say what my ruleset is and nothing more. I said how I felt and that was that.

In the end I do not think people will not go to the tournament because of this. If they do they are missing out on a great experience. If there is a huge outcry I will reconsider it but at this point it is seeing more to me like a necessary risk.
 

Heartstring

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im just going to say that-as far as stagelists go, im not entirely sure if the banning of the named counterpick stages is the right thing to do. but i personally dont care, im going anyway

one thing i will say however, is that mr. strife knows how **** works by changing neutral stages to 5. there is only 5 neutral stages (well, 4 actually but you cant do that) in this game and having 7 starters was not the way to go
also, it is his tournament after all. from my own events ive learnt you shouldnt bend the rules to suit certain people, as it may not appeal to others. you cant please everyone, so jsut go with your own instinct on the ruleset and stick to it
 

ADHD

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Then you probably need to explain how you think the game should be played, because banning all 3 stages without giving detailed reasons doesn't make you look good. I'm not saying you're wrong, personally as a Snake main I'm happy that I don't have to waste a ban on Brinstar or RC, I have other CPs than PS2 that I use when people ban PS2 against me anyway, but I'm curious as to your full reasoning.
Everyone has different levels of subjectivity on whether a stage should be banned or not. I think that PS2's gameplay degenerates to boring camping and severely slows down combat because most of the obstacles are far too imposing to use to anyone's advantage. Whether it should be banned or not is questionable, but I don't think it should.

We should replace brinstar with japes though :bee:
 

Jack Kieser

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one thing i will say however, is that mr. strife knows how **** works by changing neutral stages to 5. there is only 5 neutral stages (well, 4 actually but you cant do that) in this game and having 7 starters was not the way to go
(emphasis added)

I'm sorry, but you're completely wrong. There are no "neutral stages" in ANY Smash game, and certainly not in Brawl. No stage treats every single character the same and gives no one any advantages over any other character. This is just a false statement. I don't know what you're trying to say here, but it's wrong. If you'd like to debate that, then present just one stage in Brawl that provides no benefits to any single character over any other character (although, to properly defend yourself, you'll need to present all 4 stages you claim to be Neutral and prove how they provide no polarized benefits).
 

Alex Strife

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In general I am a pretty laid back person at times. I try to listen to everyone and go based on that. I'll just say that I have thought about changing things to a 3 stage starter-list but Staff and me have decided against it. I think its better but I can be ok with 5 stages. That should show that not all the time do I "do what I want" mentality that may come up here.


I can sit here and really debate, to the best of my ability, what I think the game needs and what it does not...I can say my opinion over and over. The fact is that it is still my opinion. As a TO I weigh in a lot more, some people in this conversation know that burden...yes what I am doing is different but I want people to know that it was not a "spur of the moment deal". We actually spent some time ( the staff and I ) talking about this in depth.

Apex is an international event. I want to make it feel like that as much as possible. Hence why we are doing give-a-ways, stipends, and qualifiers around the world. I know this is only a ruleset discussion thread but think about that scope.


Disagree with me, its ok , its your right to. I will not sit here and say your wrong or anything. Like I said it is a decision we made for now and we feel it is best for my tournament and the overall experience. If people do not come for stagelist reasons then I cannot agree with that. I think you come to apex for the overall greatness of an event such as this. For the fact that it makes history.


I guess I should not post much here anymore because I am worried that it is going to just get more hostile on both sides.
 
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