the TKD thread

[Lightning93]

Everyone will allow handicap eventually. There's absolutely no reason not to.

Last time we tried to argue this point I specifically remember a huge wave of detestation from the Falco/Pikachu/Shiek boards. It was essentially them arguing that the rule only works in favor for Fox and would be a character-specific rule and therefore affects specific match-ups. You could argue it as a more universal rule... but good luck.

There was also a lot of complaining that a 50% handicap does not amount to the 90%+ Pika or Shiek could achieve otherwise, therefore artificially nerfing their potential.

I respect your conviction TKD, and of late I'm glad you have had the opportunities to prove yourself. But to say "there's absolutely no reason not to" is a pretty gross overstatement .

 

[Chuee]

Ehh, the game would be drastically different with handicaps.
Though, I'll admit, the game would be a lot more interesting with them.

 

[Conviction]

I like Bair what about you?

 

[TKD]

"drastically" different? i can't imagine it being used often. it's just a preference.

Wario: neutral (maybe disadvantage, but he just jumps so slow...)
GaW: advantage
Marth: neutral
dedede : advantage
peach: advantage
diddy: neutral
tlink: advantage
olimar: neutral

\/ peach kind of doesn't rock.

 

[Conviction]

Peach as advantage? Why do you say that?

 

[C.R.Z]

i can see peach as being an advantage, i need more time to think of away around her glide tossing

she cant get on stage for anything lol

 

[Conviction]

Maybe I'm approaching the MU wrong. I am starting to catch on about punishing turnip pulls and Fairing float attempts. I need more info than that though.

 

[Kuro~]

Does fox have any frametraps? Aerial, ground, or aerial-->ground?

 

[Lightning93]

The closest thing I can think of is Jab>Jab>Crouch Cancel>Dsmash.

Some characters it can extend to Jab>Jab>Crouch Cancel>Shine>Dash Upsmash. If you can combo into the jab, great!

 

[Conviction]

I got you light

Here all the frametraps I've gotten so far, idk if there are more I'll keep thinking of stuff that sound plausible and test them on people.

III. Frametraps

-FH Rising Uair to Falling Nair on ADing opponents, works best at a Fox head above FH height

- AC FH Falling Dair, traps ADing opponents can lead to kills

- AC Bair, -2 frame disadv. on shield enough time to utilt, jab, run away

- JJC>Shine,JJC,grab

- Other Jab cancel stuff

- Stuffed SH Nair on ADing opponents (around sh height)

- Stuffed SH Dair on ADing opponents (around sh height)

- Stuffed SH Nair on spotdodges

- Stuffed SH Dair on spotdodges

 

[Razmakazi]

i can see peach as being an advantage, i need more time to think of away around her glide tossing

she cant get on stage for anything lol

this whole post is weird. peach's glide tossing is a problem? she can't get onstage? lol

 

[C.R.Z]

this whole post is weird. peach's glide tossing is a problem? she can't get onstage? lol

two separate comments lol

her glide toss is anoying, when your lazer camping to get her to approach she can glide toss a turnip and then usse that stupid jab of hers.its fast and hard to punish but theres prob a way round it, i just need to think of the most consistent way.

she cant get back onto the stage at all. she has a bad air dodge and a small air jump. foxs fsmash can cover most if not all her options lol

 

[TKD]

I think Peach can "tipper" her recovery to return safely, Marth style (albeit a bit harder). And although a basic ledge climb will outlast it if you have at least 100%, the key for her seems to be to simply upb into a hanging opponent as his invincible frames expire.
It's just a turnip, Cloud. Did you know she can catch the turnip from her own toss if she glides far enough? It's pretty amusing.

I tested something today. You can walk away from MK at dash approach distance to bait his dash approaches.

- If he dashes, blocks, and rolls into you, you can utilt him.
- If he whiffs a dash grab, you can utilt him.
- If he whiffs a dash attack, you can utilt him.
- If you think he'll over-extend a dash grab to catch you, you can interrupt him with utilt. If he dash attacks instead in this situation, it'll clash with your utilt.
- If you think he'll over-extend a dash attack to catch you, you can block and shield-grab.
- This bait also allows usmash punish, which is preferable at 90% and above (with a fresh usmash). It's much easier if you decided not to block (because of the likelihood that the opponent will miss any of those moves). The risk is only receiving a dash attack, anyway (which you can usmash with unblock turn-around or jump canceled from block in case of the overextension).

The utilt hurts a lot at certain percentages, too. From around 10%, utilt to utilt links. Before that, utilt to buffer turn-around grab is good. At some percentages, he's also subject to utilt, utilt, to block: So you may be able to bair him if he air-jump dairs (there are more aerials available if you turn around before blocking!), or unblock and dsmash/utilt/grab if he landed with nair/dair.

Block to immediate usmash is as good as ever vs his tilts.

We have a lot of options to KO MK. You need to be observant of the opponent's preferences, though! It sounds difficult, but it's not an effort you have to put in most of the match, just to kill each stock. The rest of the match I don't even think now, I just let Fox's advantage carry me through.

For anti-air game, I'm liking the fair/uair approach, with baits mixed in there so you can air-jump aerial him as he whiffs something. It may be a "coin-flip" situation, which gives you lots of control.

For recovery, I like to drift away from him if he chases off-stage, and zip through with sideB. If he stays on the stage or fooling around the ledge, FireFox slightly angled downwards to the ledge is good. Completely into the stage is good only SOMETIMES. It has larger risk, and people expect it more often (leaving you safe for going to the ledge).

Full hop dair is good vs MK (depending on the pattern you're playing against). It catches his fair from above, and his uairs from the side, or can enter in-between uairs. If he doesn't uair/fair, there's no need to risk the fast-fall dair.

And don't get used to KOing every character confidently. You must gauge risk-reward. Sheik can ftilt-lock you as punishment, for example. Snake can dthrow you.

Those are my tips for today!

 

[Kuro~]

Wow o.o TKD is cool this *ask me* thread is one of the better ones around. All the others died or they just dont post stuff

 

[TKD]

Thanks. Having an active thread with feedback is more encouraging and helps me more than just personal documents.
I don't even worry about people knowing my "gimmicks" since there's no set way to play that can solve the match-up for them, anyway. We're not Ness, LOL.

 

[Kuro~]

I see you Kadaj. Yours is good as well btw :o

But i quit going to marth boards long ago~lol


@TKD ya it does seem like that would be better. And i agree...that's not gonna make a huge difference in the end even if it were to happen lol.

 

[Kuro~]

Wow, so i just read this entire thing...so much stuff to work on O.O...i got time though haha. TKD can you please explain why you think fox vs mk is even? Some well known players i talk to think it's mk's favor. So i'm just curious~

Also, may i inquire as to what custom controls you use? I'm trying to find what i like. Experimented with a bunch today.

 

[Conviction]

Idk if my next-to-kin wants to explain that MU again for idk how many times this would make but in the MK MU thread we got TKD's opinion and others mixed in for a pretty good guide against MK.

 

[TKD]

If your "well known players" aren't from California, they don't count, dude. They haven't even seen/played the match-up. All the SSBM characters are over here (Fox, Marth, Falco). Even Olimar is over here.

P.S.: I just noticed most of the match-up is explained just a few posts above...

 

[Bloodcross]

Hey look.

A thread.

About TKD.

 

[Conviction]

Three questions today because after yesterday's smashfest these are the things I feel should work on

1) How do you exert pressure and keep/control stage control?
2) How do you space exactly as Fox? all of a sudden I found this a big thing for me.
3) What do you think about Fox's zones and where do you think those zones are?

 

[Kuro~]

Wow, so i just read this entire thing...so much stuff to work on O.O...i got time though haha. TKD can you please explain why you think fox vs mk is even? Some well known players i talk to think it's mk's favor. So i'm just curious~

Also, may i inquire as to what custom controls you use? I'm trying to find what i like. Experimented with a bunch today.

Second question about controls then?

And i'll go read that mk discussion later

/tired

 

[TKD]

i turn off tap jump

pressure and stage control is staying in a good position, or forcing more and more mix-up situations. to gain stage control, go back to neutral. get out of your bad position.
for me, spacing is walking and hopping around. it looks like spacing, but i'm usually either zoning or baiting. maybe it works so well because it's hard to tell which.
being below the opponent is a good zone between most character match-ups. you don't need to be fox for this to apply. almost everything's a good zone for fox. we're one of those chars that put themselves above the opponent in purpose (snake, olimar) because it's a good position. our best zones are skid grab range, below opponent (specially if they're on a platform), and close enough to either bait and punish or to use walk block approach.

just walk around. platforms are really, really good because you can choose when to drop with action, and you can retract yourself by air-jumping. the edge of a platform is a very bad zone unless you're facing away from it, in which case you can go back to neutral by blocking anything (which pushes you off) or going away.

know what you're baiting. you can't just approach approach approach. for example, you bait mk's dash approaches until the space changes and you can walk approach. you bait snake's moves until they're relaxed enough to be unable to react to a skid grab. you blaster olimar or hop away while zoning until they decide to commit (example. while dropping from a platform, you drift of air-jump away if olimar tries to get away from you; and you approach him if he doesn't get away early or is nearby enough.

 

[Kuro~]

Do you claw?

 

[TKD]

i don't know what "clawing" is.

 

[Conviction]

Three questions today because after yesterday's smashfest these are the things I feel should work on

1) How do you exert pressure and keep/control stage control?
2) How do you space exactly as Fox? all of a sudden I found this a big thing for me.
3) What do you think about Fox's zones and where do you think those zones are?

My next-to-kin?

 

[Kuro~]

Oh...errr...nvm. I'll figure it out sooner or later lol.

Ya so, i started reading that mk discussion. There was some spiteful differences in opinion in there lol

 

[Conviction]

Read the summary XD

 

[Kuro~]

Read the summary XD

Haha ya i just found the progression interesting. Especially after reading all 25 pages and seeing the same arguments repeat but with different people... either way i'm not using fox just for mk...i just like fox so i wanna use him seriously lol. That and i got to find a cool match of Yui at the end

 

[Conviction]

That tends to happen here with Fox. You disprove the argument then 3 weeks later they bring up the same argument like nothing ever happened -___-

That's come I either troll or stay quiet when it comes to Fox in certain threads.

So, I'm sitting here in training mode, and I something interesting I found out. When your opponent is on the ledge, stand by opponent's ledge roll distance. Being here you can cover the ledge roll and ledge hop at lower precents.

- TESTING WAS DONE WITH A LEVEL 9 COMPUTER SET ON RUN IN TRAINING MODE -

Options to stop ledge jump
-Dash SH Nair
-Dash SH Dair
-Dash SH Bair
-Dash SH Uair
-Dash Full Jump Dair (AC)***
-Dash Full Jump Nair (AC)***
-Dash Full Jump Bair (AC/AC FF)***

Note: (***) - Means if you AC or in Bair's case AC and/or AC Fastfall, if you read wrong and the opponent rolled onto stage you can still land and punish the roll with a grab.

To stop ledge roll
-SH Nair
-SH Dair
-Grab

Even better at higher precents you can punish any ledge option, because of how long it takes them to get up.

~Use this to your adv. guys~

I'm going to keep messing around and see if I can find anything else.

Yesterday, I went to a smashfest and the above post worked out. I'll make sure to get some vids next time.

 

[TKD]

@Iblis: You have to guess which option they're using though, correct? Also, wouldn't -everything- beat ledge roll if you're at that distance?

I like to cover ledge drop air-jump options and take advantage of the position if they ledge jump.

@Kuro: Don't even worry about that. Each is entitled to his own opinion.

 

[Conviction]

Yeah anything does.

Maybe I should rephrase it and say that's Fox's optimal distance to punish any ledge option. Also you don't have to guess for the get up/ get up attack, it's an easy reaction. Also wasn't really hard to react to jumping too.

 

[TKD]

Well it sure sounds difficult.

I'm thinking about how you have to play each match-up differently. Fox is quite the speedy and mobile character, which allows him to play at the pace that is needed. Maybe that's what makes him so complete. Here are the styles I've found to work best against each high tier character.

Chars that seem to be vulnerable to aggressive (zoning) fighting styles:
MK, Marth, Dedede, Fox
This is due to the way these characters take up space, due to their speed or range. Trying to avoid them will get you cornered.

Chars against which conservative (baiting) fighting styles seem to work better:
Snake, Olimar
This is because these possess options that are both more powerful and more committing than the previous batch of characters.

Some chars are more moderate in the options department. They don't **** neither conservative, nor aggressive styles. A mixed style seems to work well against them.
Falco, Wolf

This is only for neutral position! If you have advantageous position, you need to make the best of it.
I recommend you to use sudden bursts of the opposite style mid-match. This is usually unexpected.

I don't know about Wario and Diddy Kong. If I had to guess, it's best to go aggressive on Wario, since his jump squat takes long and his ground movement is so slow. He seems like he wouldn't have much chance to move if you act quickly and frequently.
Against Diddy Kong, I'd go aggressive when he's in range and has no banana peels, and I'd play conservatively when he's out of range and holding a peel. You can wait for him to toss one to catch or block it, or wait for him to zone in and fight.
I don't have enough experience against these two to tell...but my guess would be to go "as aggressive as possible" against them both. They both have bigger grab range than Fox, but walk slower.

None of our bad match-ups are actually high tier, so almost any other high tier character can do the job against those. I like MK, Marth, Snake, Olimar, and Diddy Kong. They don't share any bad match-up with Fox, and they don't have easy-to-play counters.

Tips vs Sheik:
approach with block, grab, or nair when she can ftilt lock. her ftilt comboes fox from fair, utilt and weak nair. if you keep approaching in ways she can't ftilt, you'll find yourself sailing comfortably through this match-up.
if you get tilt locked, hold block the whole time and QCDI each kick into her. the opponent should lose awareness of your position one of the times you go, or don't go, through her; making her miss an ftilt.

 

[Gadiel_VaStar]

the problem is that, players in general suck and fox is actually hard to use...

It seems like your players get better & better @_@. I.E.--Trump, Zeton, MegaFox, Trevonte, TKD...is there a reason why you guys get better & better? Is there something about the character that makes a player think more strategically, faster, and smarter or something?

Fox is so good, it makes no sense. He really is a character that should be winning a lot of tournaments.
Does our dash usmash reach Falco's air-break? And Snake's?

What other characters should be winning lots of tournaments? Honest opinion plz. Does Pit make the list...?

Pika's mediocre, though. Fox with handicap 50 or whichever secondary will be good enough.
Difficulty to learn a character is irrelevant. It's obvious that people just don't like Fox for some reason.

How is Pikachu mediocre? What about ESAM/Anther?

Also, how would you go about "finding your own path?" I still seem to struggle w/ finding a mindset that best suites me and developing it. I still have lots of trouble being proactive in my game(reads, habits, baiting, etc..)

 

[Conviction]

TKD, yeah we can air release Usmash Falco, idk Snake. Also, I'm starting to do "RAIN" style lasering and mix-ups to cover it when people try to read it, have you tried it and how is it working out for you? One more thing my next-to-kin, what do you think Fox and ISAP? Doing it similiar to how Falco does it. Would benefit us?

Gstar, people can only tell you concepts, only you can grasp it and apply to your character. Lol I gueess the reason Foxes are getting better is because as of recently we have been communicating more. (Through this thread) Also just thinking in general gets you places, just move outside of your conmfort zone.

 

[C.R.Z]

Well it sure sounds difficult.

I'm thinking about how you have to play each match-up differently. Fox is quite the speedy and mobile character, which allows him to play at the pace that is needed. Maybe that's what makes him so complete. Here are the styles I've found to work best against each high tier character.

Chars that seem to be vulnerable to aggressive (zoning) fighting styles:
MK, Marth, Dedede, Fox
This is due to the way these characters take up space, due to their speed or range. Trying to avoid them will get you cornered.

Chars against which conservative (baiting) fighting styles seem to work better:
Snake, Olimar
This is because these possess options that are both more powerful and more committing than the previous batch of characters.

Some chars are more moderate in the options department. They don't **** neither conservative, nor aggressive styles. A mixed style seems to work well against them.
Falco, Wolf

This is only for neutral position! If you have advantageous position, you need to make the best of it.
I recommend you to use sudden bursts of the opposite style mid-match. This is usually unexpected.

I don't know about Wario and Diddy Kong. If I had to guess, it's best to go aggressive on Wario, since his jump squat takes long and his ground movement is so slow. He seems like he wouldn't have much chance to move if you act quickly and frequently.
Against Diddy Kong, I'd go aggressive when he's in range and has no banana peels, and I'd play conservatively when he's out of range and holding a peel. You can wait for him to toss one to catch or block it, or wait for him to zone in and fight.
I don't have enough experience against these two to tell...but my guess would be to go "as aggressive as possible" against them both. They both have bigger grab range than Fox, but walk slower.

None of our bad match-ups are actually high tier, so almost any other high tier character can do the job against those. I like MK, Marth, Snake, Olimar, and Diddy Kong. They don't share any bad match-up with Fox, and they don't have easy-to-play counters.

Tips vs Sheik:
approach with block, grab, or nair when she can ftilt lock. her ftilt comboes fox from fair, utilt and weak nair. if you keep approaching in ways she can't ftilt, you'll find yourself sailing comfortably through this match-up.
if you get tilt locked, hold block the whole time and QCDI each kick into her. the opponent should lose awareness of your position one of the times you go, or don't go, through her; making her miss an ftilt.

just popped in to say this is all true

 

[Conviction]

I'm popping in to co-sign that as well.

 

[TKD]

No character has anything to do with its player, Gadiel. If your interest is high enough, you'll manage to do whatever it is you want and enjoy the process of getting there.

There's always a faster way to play, a better option to consider, a simpler way to see things...but you can't keep expecting other players to give you the guide! The only secret is INTEREST.

About Pit, he seems to be a fine character. He seems limited because he doesn't have some things I enjoy in a character, but I don't even know Pit well enough to have a care about the matter.

The chars I think are the best would be MK, Snake, Diddy, Falco, Wario, Marth, Fox, and Olimar. A friend of mine seems to think that Wolf also makes this list. I won't be surprised if that proves true.
A good player can make other characters increasingly viable. All he needs is to main one.
Most great players main characters they like a lot. That's a big incentive. Right now, I'm playing the two characters I have the most fun playing as. I can enjoy the game fully. As long as I think they're that cool, that good, and that fun, I'm not wasting my time.
Don't even worry about the time it'll take to learn a character you like better, you think is better, or looks like he'd be broken in your hands. Your enjoyment will sharply decrease the learning curve.

@Iblis: Fox can't buffer jump Illusion, so it's tougher to apply than Falco's (besides the fact that the move is much worse). I use it to confuse my opponent so he slows down a bit or changes the scheme for his option usage. My opponents never expect it because it's so rare for me to use the move. It's high risk, low reward, so I assume it's so annoying when I use it, that the opponent limits himself a bit just to cover the option. It's also an okay move to gain room by zipping closer to the center of the stage.

 

[Conviction]

^ So true.

/Co-sign

So Fox is pretty **** with Platform canceling. Platform Drop Nair/Dair/Bair is ****, Utilt>Platform Cancel>Uair is ****. It's even **** for recovering. Double Jump>Platfrom Drop>Rising Fair>???>Profit

I'm loving Rain lasering too, it gives me options when I'm being pressed onstage and jumping off and back on is viable. I'll have to look more into Fox's ISAP I've taken down some notes about it..

Also Fox ***** the hell of out spotdodge and Airdodge. Also when you get pro at Rain lasering you can fire all three shots and all three of them hit Falco.

 

[TKD]

What -I- like is how incredibly aggro Fox can go. Don't go aggro on Snake or Oli though. Aggro Fox cancels out all range and personal space flaws you could have in your game play. LEARN TO GO AGGRO. the sooner your aggro becomes natural, the sooner it becomes fluid, precise and unpredictable.

An example vs Marth:
- walking into him as he's landing is great. if there's no time to zone in and shieldgrab/utilt (you can also bait an airdodge and shieldgrab/utilt/dsmash), you can wait for him to land with fair or airdodge and punish the cool-down with dash attack. marth's aerials are very straightforward, so predict them and try to powerblock.
- walk grab works very well because fox's walk has...if i'm not mistaken, the best walk acceleration and sliding.
- at low percentage, you can avoid his grab links with ac bairs, walk grabbing him, and platform play with nairs and movement. this is when you don't go completely aggro, a bit like vs falco.
- he's cornered when at the ledge too.
- don't blaster marth. you just can't.

vs MK:
- walking into him, dashing into him, or zoning with a hop is good when combined with shield play. the idea is to suffocate him.
- when mk's in the air, you can chase him by hopping, and then chasing with air-jump tipper uair, or do nothing to bait an action. if he dairs or air-dodges, you air-jump aerial right after (nair is very easy to land, fair and uair have more range). air-dodging to the ground helps if he lands all the way into you. just force the interaction when he's in the air.
- if you expect or want to cover a dash approach, you can bait by walking away. if you predict it, you can sh dair mk.
- this one isn't cornred at the ledge, but you can actually blaster him.

vs DDD:
- zone in and fight with every option he can't utilt. punish his bairs (you can punish the whiffs or from block). the thing is, you have the advantage if he has trouble killing you.

these are three of the chars you need to go aggro against. by that i mean zoning in and suffocating them. things like walk block, hop into him block are aggressive! it's just zoning in and wrecking...

if any of you are still camping, practice aggro in your friendlies. aggro just ***** chars like the three above.