the TKD thread

[TKD]

I'll post everything about anything here (read: Brawl Character Discussion: Fox).
I'll also be completely discriminative against non-Fox mains and hang their pictures up at the "do not serve" section of my restaurant's wall (in other words, don't waste our time with questions bros).

vs Marth:
Spacing bair (preferably autocanceled to maintain position unless fastfall will work better) and surprising with grab is good at the beginning. It should look like your plan is to only space bair for walk-up grab to be a great surprise. Don't worry so much about blocking at first, the opponent only wants that juicy beginning grab combo. I'd prefer risking receiving a weak fair or something than the grab combo, but you shouldn't limit yourself to not mixing it up as things won't get moving that way. If they insist with grabs and fail enough, you may rack up a comfy lead. If you end up getting grabbed near the ledge, I think it's best to multi-SDI the spike upwards and air-jump to the ledge if the spike is anything like Falco's.

If Marth whiffs rising SHFair, you can dash usmash him. To inspire this specific whiff, it works to walk away from the opponent a bit. Walking away sort of encourages recklessness for some reason, including more whiffs. As Marth falls to the ground, it's good to walk up to him for a shieldgrab on his fair.

Getting below him and utilting him is also very good, be that before you're in fair range or after you've waited for something (utilt works easily on reaction to air-dodge, although dsmash is better if they do it early enough to react that way). Dair is a very easy punish if you block it (unblock, and usmash or dsmash), don't stop expecting it.

More about Marth fair. It has 8 frames of landing cool-down. If he drifts into you during rising SHFair, you can usmash from block or maybe SHFair (buffered for same height and smooth landing).

Expect Dancing Blade as the opponent's approach nearing the beginning of the set (expect grab first though!), or after he's used it once (an opponent that's not too happy committing to DB won't go all in with it right away or that often). DB is countered by SHNair into him (somehow it has more range in front of Fox than DB has above Marth), and by block (usmash or grab on the 3rd hit is guaranteed, but you have to execute whichever preemptively if you think or know they won't go into 3rd). I think you can multi-SDI DB's 3rd hit away or something consistently, which would be swell for a ledge grab or a dash usmash punish if they finish it instead of the opponent landing the whole combo and gaining momentum.

Marth gains A LOT of momentum if he sends you off-stage, be patient. Don't sideB into the stage from the ledge if the opponent is far away, since they're waiting for it and there's time to standard get up, ledgejump+shine, etc. back onstage outside of his option's range. If the opponent likes to perform empty shorthops, you can predict one and dash SHFair or dash usmash them (preferrably one for damage, or the other if it'll KO). As most strong punishments, this makes them stop doing it, which means one less option to worry about (if they keep doing it, you know what to do). Dsmash is very good at high percentages, sometimes Marth can't recover from it. The situation can even result in their death if they attempted to DI an usmash sometimes.

Don't edge-guard Marth below the ledge unless you're invincible or something. There's little to do without risking being dolphin slashed. Marth is invincible since frame 1 while performing Dolphin Slash, which is jump-cancelable (so he goes from blocking to invincible from one frame to the next if the opponent performs it from block, unless they uncharacteristically mess up). So watch out for Dolphin Slash and remember it exists (random DS can make for a very good punish, including uair, fair, bair, charged fsmash, or a KOing usmash).

Also, unblock into DB can hit you in around 12 frames, so utilt isn't safe on his shield. This means utilt is bad when the opponent can block it.

Dash Attack interrupts Marth's dash-ins very well and frequently enough! Marth takes awhile before he can block after initiating a dash, so if you're close enough, you'll probably land the Dash Attack interruption. It usually hits the opponent before his intended Dancing Blade comes out.

What else...

Marth's grab range is very good, but he doesn't slide as much as us when we walk block or walk grab, so we can walk up and grab him well. Shield is usually a good approach, and if you're used to walk-up shieldgrabbing (which you should be), you can usually shield-grab them on reaction to them also deciding to block. Remember to use your momentum every time you land an utilt or dthrow, or whatever. Marth has to land with a shieldgrabbable aerial, or an air-dodge...or something. In general he's at a disadvantage when below your ground level if you can get close enough to shield-grab his fair.

Also for some reason Marth players rarely bair (they can be more likely to prefer falling dair!), so it's easy to act as though they have no bair sometimes and get them from behind as they fall. If you get Marth to the ledge, you can wait for him from outside the range of his air-jump aerials and dash attack him after he does anything to get back...besides some exceptions: you can probably dash usmash (or bair ouch!!) his air-jump DB if he ever does it, and if he ledge-jumps, he got himself above you, which is a position easy to settle for.

If you hard-read a dash-in, you can probably dash usmash preemptively btw.


I'd write more or on other chars but maybe next time.

Basics:
If someone air-dodges too early, it's a chance to react to it by dashing up to them and punishing with usmash (remember it hits very high above Fox's head), fair, block+grab (to avoid dashgrabbing), dash attack, etc., the first two specially when the air-dodge will finish before they land. Sometimes they give you chance to walk up and dsmash them too. Another thing the opponent can do too soon is an aerial. You can react accordingly to your position and dash attack, usmash, air-jump fair (if you were both falling for example), etc.. So let it be a lesson: don't act too early while falling yourself!

Walk-up shield-grab (block+attack) is preferable to plain grabbing, because it reminds you to block longer sometimes, the first 3 frames of blocking actually equal a powerblock, and you can decide not to shield-grab immediately but do something else (mostly blocking longer or unblocking).

As your opponent is falling, you can walk up to them and block the first moment their quickest aerial can reach you. Why? If they perform the aerial the first possible moment, you get a powerblock. If they perform it later, you blocked anyway! Also, if they air-dodge, it can be easy to react to with a shieldgrab. This is very good against Falco and Kirby, to name a couple characters. Remember to block high so you're never shield-stabbed.

Don't dash attack too early. Fox gains options as the opponent's percentage rises, and dash attacking too early can mean eating an aerial before your cool-down is over. The example for Meta Knight would be around 50%, but nearing 0% it's also difficult for the opponent to react and punish accordingly (he lands back to the ground too quickly, so not even MK's nair has time to come out). This means that at way low percentages, dash attack can also prove useful. Yes, in general, the opponent needs some damage on them to be susceptible to this move, but it's a very good one.

 

[Kuares]

[collapse=TKD's comments on Marth MU]
KEY POINTS

Summary
_____Expect Dancing Blade as the opponent's approach at the beginning of the match(expect grab first though!), or after he's used it once (an opponent that's not too happy committing to DB won't go all in with it right away or that often). DB is countered by SHNair into him (somehow it has more range in front of Fox than DB has above Marth), and by block (usmash or grab on the 3rd hit is guaranteed, but you have to execute whichever preemptively if you think or know they won't go into 3rd). I think you can multi-SDI DB's 3rd hit away or something consistently, which would be swell for a ledge grab or a dash usmash punish if they finish it instead of the opponent landing the whole combo and gaining momentum.


IN-DEPTH DISCUSSION
Strategy & Match-Up Mentality

Aerial Game:
_____Also for some reason Marth players rarely bair (they can be more likely to prefer falling dair!), so it's easy to act as though they have no bair sometimes and get them from behind as they fall.

Ground Game:
_____Unblock into DB can hit you in around 12 frames, so utilt isn't safe on his shield. This means utilt is bad when the opponent can block it.
_____Dash Attack interrupts Marth's dash-ins very well and frequently enough! Marth takes awhile before he can block after initiating a dash, so if you're close enough, you'll probably land the Dash Attack interruption. It usually hits the opponent before his intended Dancing Blade comes out. If you hard-read a dash-in, you can probably dash usmash preemptively btw.
_____Marth's grab range is very good, but he doesn't slide as much as us when we walk block or walk grab, so we can walk up and grab him well. Shield is usually a good approach, and if you're used to walk-up shieldgrabbing (which you should be), you can usually shield-grab them on reaction to them also deciding to block. Remember to use your momentum every time you land an utilt or dthrow, or whatever. Marth has to land with a shieldgrabbable aerial, or an air-dodge...or something. In general he's at a disadvantage when below your ground level if you can get close enough to shield-grab his fair.

Approach:
_____Spacing bair (preferably AC'd to maintain position unless fastfall will work better) and surprising with grab is good at the beginning. It should look like your plan is to only space bair for walk-up grab to be a great surprise. Don't worry so much about blocking at first, the opponent only wants that juicy beginning grab combo. I'd prefer risking receiving a weak fair or something than the grab combo, but you shouldn't limit yourself to not mixing it up as things won't get moving that way. If they insist with grabs and fail enough, you may rack up a comfy lead. If you end up getting grabbed near the ledge, I think it's best to multi-SDI the spike upwards and air-jump to the ledge if the spike is anything like Falco's.

Defense:
_____If Marth whiffs rising SHFair, you can dash usmash him. To inspire this specific whiff, it works to walk away from the opponent a bit. Walking away sort of encourages recklessness for some reason, including more whiffs. As Marth falls to the ground, it's good to walk up to him for a shieldgrab on his fair.
_____Marth' fair has 8 frames of landing lag. If he drifts into you during rising SHFair, you can usmash from block or maybe SHFair (buffered for same height and smooth landing).
_____Getting below him and utilting him is also very good, be that before you're in fair range or after you've waited for something (utilt works easily on reaction to air-dodge, although dsmash is better if they do it early enough to react that way). Dair is a very easy punish if you block Fair (unblock, and usmash or dsmash), don't stop expecting it.

Camping Game:
_____(It's common sense to say SHTL is very useful in this match-up)

Edge Game:
_____Don't edge-guard Marth below the ledge unless you're invincible or something. There's little to do without risking being dolphin slashed. Marth is invincible since frame 1 while performing Dolphin Slash, which is jump-cancelable (so he goes from blocking to invincible from one frame to the next if the opponent performs it from block, unless they uncharacteristically mess up). So watch out for Dolphin Slash and remember it exists (random DS can make for a very good punish, including uair, fair, bair, charged fsmash, or a KOing usmash).
_____If you get Marth to the ledge, you can wait for him from outside the range of his air-jump aerials and dash attack him after he does anything to get back...besides some exceptions: you can probably dash usmash (or bair ouch!!) his air-jump DB if he ever does it, and if he ledge-jumps, he got himself above you, which is a position easy to settle for.

Surviving:
_____Marth gains A LOT of momentum if he sends you off-stage, be patient. Don't sideB into the stage from the ledge if the opponent is far away, since they're waiting for it and there's time to standard get up, ledgejump+shine, etc. back onstage outside of his option's range.

Killing:
_____If the opponent likes to perform empty shorthops, you can predict one and dash SHFair or dash usmash them (preferrably one for damage, or the other if it'll KO). As most strong punishments, this makes them stop doing it, which means one less option to worry about (if they keep doing it, you know what to do). Dsmash is very good at high percentages, sometimes Marth can't recover from it. The situation can even result in their death if they attempted to DI an usmash sometimes.[/collapse]

[collapse=Comments on Nana Lock for Diddy]PROVE that we have an infinite on diddy? Like every char does, those I've found for fox are these; they include 1, 2 and 3 consecutive footstools(before landing) respectively:

- short footstool with nana held + downtoss, fast-fall and catch while drifting into diddy, link to continuity
- short footstool with nana held + downtoss, drift into diddy while catching nana, short footstool again (you haven't touched the ground) plus nana catch (doesn't matter if you airdodge since you're going to the ground anyway), link to continuity
- short footstool with nana held + downtoss, drift into diddy while catching nana, LARGE footstool + downtoss, drift into diddy while catching nana, short footstool + downtoss (doesn't matter if you airdodge since you're going to the ground anyway), link into continuity​

Continuity links:

- downtoss a nana very close to diddy while your back faces him. during trip animation, this sends him into you. you can then short hop into diddy while catching nana + footstool
- footstool the tripped diddy and use whichever footstool downtoss variation you will. you'll need another method if you want to switch directions
- turn around and footstool the tripped diddy to switch directions of the infinite (like the first of these three methods)​

As for ideas to start it, either footstool openings (poor of him if he trips), or drop nana + recatch with dair into diddy, buffer turn-around downtoss upon connection of dair, begin infinite. There's also down toss from above into nana catch (while falling) into footstool, but for that the nana must've hit diddy directly, not after it being blocked or spot-dodged. way unlikely. People should find more openings.

About platforms:

- use shorter cycles for the infinite to avoid platforms
- smashville platforms: hold down so you don't occasionally land on it by bad luck if you want: though this requires more tech skill. learn to time/measure your cycle so you never do the first footstool onto the platform (otherwise it'll obstruct you). my method was to use turn around + double footstool (the first before it's here, the second, shorter one to pass beneath it). if double foot-stool wasn't enough to go all the way through it, i'd complete it with the triple one (which goes short footstool, big footstool, any footstool -the third is so short it doesn't matter much-).​

I once tried to record all of them, but my pc is too slow so the recording usually comes out horrible. I don't have the infinite practiced because I don't need it. I don't get to play vs. any Diddy.

It's a drag that a single match-up requires so much specific tech skill.[/collapse]

I broke down your first paragraph for it to be easier to chew. There's some good stuff here.

 

[Chef Fox]

Hey what do we do about a whiff Short Hop Double Fair from Marth?
Can we still UpSmash after the first one?

 

[TKD]

@Kuares: Making fun of my wall of text!?
@Chef:
Yeah, punish the first one. You can't punish the second one unless you have time to walk or dash in close enough for a shieldgrab.

If Marth will air-dodge behing your shield (instead of a second fair), check if you have time to unblock and utilt, if not roll away from him (which would be the opposite direction he moves in). If you're real "read-ee" or the opponent is somewhat of a few-trick pony, you could unblock preemptively to dsmash or turn around and grab.
I've tried dash attacking Marth during the landing cool-down of his fair, but I think timing and spacing is strict enough for that to be unreliable. It probably works when he airjumps back from the ledge though, as I remember always waiting for the chance to dash attack him, and it working. He's so cornered when at the ledge it's funny.

Speaking about ledged Marth, if the opponent is careless about it you can walk up to him as he ledge drop empty airjumps and gimp him with dsmash. He spent his airjump! The opponent shouldn't do that though.

Ice Climbers
IC have a lot of tricks. And they all work real well on Fox. So on to the tricks.
Desynch, ice block is easy to deal with, as you can reflect the single block and short-hop cancel, to do whatever you wish to do next. The opponent may mix up with desynch ice block into desynch blizzard into dashgrab, so watch out for that (it'll be easy to see). Another mix-up is the opponent jumping instead of dashing into you behind the ice block, in hopes of intercepting your hop from shine. Not hopping into the climber when he takes the air will be good, and an opponent in the air is a good opening for you. I just thought of desynch ice block into dash, RAR bair, but I'll worry about that when I see it. Shining the ice block is a good opportunity to hop into IC and into their backside to open them, as it is also a good opportunity to hit one with a well spaced delayed nair (delayed well enough for the opponent not to powerblock it; if you think he can, either space nair farther away or don't execute it). If the opponent is careless about desynching, or does it into you (with dash away, toward you, special; instead of toward, away + pivot special), he gives openings for random dash usmashes and stuff, so take the clear chances if they're given often.

Bair is pretty good on IC once in awhile. If necessary, delayed enough to avoid the opponent's powerblock and to allow the most drifting.
Mostly this match-up requires patience, because you can't really let your guard down and still win like in other match-ups. You should avoid being grabbed, but also remember that you need to learn how to struggle so the opponent has a tough time trying to chaingrab you. If he tries a 2ble climber cg, it should be impossible for the opponent to begin it from a dashgrab (too much cool-down on the helper climber) unless he begins the cg with solo climber dthrows. Any time the opponent has to dash grab you with the main climber can be an opportunity to escape.

As for grabbing the Climbers, use fthrow. It crashes a climber into the other. The rest of Fox's throws will result in you being hit with a smash attack. Grabbing IC is pretty good, Fox's grab range is bigger and he zones and spaces better with the shorthop and better walk and stuff.

In general I like to begin interaction with lasers and adapt to whatever the opponent does. Standing rapid lasers are good when IC are far away, as they can't do much about that. Spacing around their range and running away works very well, as the climbers are not too fast a character. Standard juggling applies to them, and they're not a difficult juggle either. Focus on the main climber: if it's controlled via juggling, both of them are: the helper climber will never think it up and grab you or smash you, it'll just keep hopping into the main one. If the main Climber can't do anything about it, it's good to kick the crap out of the other though. Don't let a solo climbers grab you at low percentage, it means either a powerful and long chaingrab, or worse, the same while waiting for the helper climber to regroup. So you'll avoid being grabbed for most of the match: when they're grouped and when you have low %.

Learn to follow the CPU climber when she's alone. She has a pattern, allowing real combos and sometimes easy edgeguards (depending on the participation of the other one, but it's usually good allowing that one to hit you in exchange for knocking the partner out). Also, the helper's carelessness allows you to usually have racked up enough damage to suddenly KO with usmash (if the climber is outside of control range, it won't DI either). The main climber is vulnerable during upb and allows you to hit him after he's thrown his helper in front of him. This can mean a downb, a dair that's not fast-fallen, or i don't know. Their sideb doesn't sweetspot the ledge until freefall, so you can take advantage of it too.

IC players will usually uair to chase you when you're avoiding them. You can either sort of space away in the air and land on them with a nair, bair or whatever, or run away usually. The best you can probably do is powerblock it from a platform and drop with an aerial.

 

[Asdioh]

Don't dash attack too early. Fox gains options as the opponent's percentage rises, and dash attacking too early can mean eating an aerial before your cool-down is over. The example for Meta Knight would be around 50%, but nearing 0% it's also difficult for the opponent to react and punish accordingly (he lands back to the ground too quickly, so not even MK's nair has time to come out). This means that at way low percentages, dash attack can also prove useful. Yes, in general, the opponent needs some damage on them to be susceptible to this move, but it's a very good one.

I learned this against Yoshi. Uptilt and Dash Attack at low percents would be punished by Nairs (which would lead into jab, which would lead into grab ugh)

Desynch, ice block is easy to deal with, as you can reflect the single block and short-hop cancel, to do whatever you wish to do next.

What do you mean short-hop cancel? I thought you couldn't jump out of shine, even after reflecting (I heard you could, and tried it but it didn't work or something?)


Good thread aside from the painful wall-of-text stuff x_x

 

[TKD]

Isn't utilt to utilt a combo? Why would you be nair'd? As far as I know, you can block before the opponent can retaliate. I like to utilt, utilt vs MK, block his nair, punish. If they have VERY low %, I utilt, turnaround grab.

Of course you can jump from shine, from immediately to a moment right after reflecting a projectile. I don't know what match-ups you're playing if you haven't needed to do this!

Hey, the wall of text may not be that painful if you care enough.

 

[TKD]

double post

 

[crifer]

Question: Can we punish Falco´s Jab every time?
If he hits us with jab: can we interrupt him between his first and second jab or jab cancel? with nair? our jab? grab? shine?

If he hits our shield: can we interrupt him betwenn his first and second jab or jab cancel? nair OOS? shieldgrab? maybe usmash after the 2nd jab?

 

[Chef Fox]

Isn't utilt to utilt a combo?

I find that this is not a combo if the opponent has 0% sometimes. Say a character like King Dedede is hit by my Utilt at 0%, and I go for the second Utilt, he will Power Shield the second one and grab me. At a higher percent it is a true combo, but only two of them string together. Falco is another character who I play regularly that can Power Shield the second Utilt.

 

[Chef Fox]

Double Post, sorry

Question: Can we punish Falco´s Jab every time?
If he hits us with jab: can we interrupt him between his first and second jab or jab cancel? with nair? our jab? grab? shine?

If he hits our shield: can we interrupt him betwenn his first and second jab or jab cancel? nair OOS? shieldgrab? maybe usmash after the 2nd jab?

I've actually been testing this in Training Mode, and we seem to be able to interrupt his jab cancel if it hits us with jab. I am not sure about the others, but I have no one to help me test them.
If he hits our shield, we can use Nair OOS, shine OOS, and shield grab right after his second jab. It should work ever single time.

 

[Zhamy]

I find that this is not a combo if the opponent has 0% sometimes. Say a character like King Dedede is hit by my Utilt at 0%, and I go for the second Utilt, he will Power Shield the second one and grab me. At a higher percent it is a true combo, but only two of them string together. Falco is another character who I play regularly that can Power Shield the second Utilt.

You realize DDD is a special case because of how he falls? Fox can't reliably combo UtiltxN on him.

And yeah, it won't work at 0% on most characters.

 

[Chef Fox]

You realize DDD is a special case because of how he falls? Fox can't reliably combo UtiltxN on him.

And yeah, it won't work at 0% on most characters.

Yeah I figured Dedede being the fastest faller affected the combo, he's just an example.

 

[crifer]

Double Post, sorry



I've actually been testing this in Training Mode, and we seem to be able to interrupt his jab cancel if it hits us with jab. I am not sure about the others, but I have no one to help me test them.
If he hits our shield, we can use Nair OOS, shine OOS, and shield grab right after his second jab. It should work ever single time.

I tested it today with a crew member,

if Falco hits our shield, we can:
- simply shield drop and jab him after the first and second jab (if he is in range!)
- usmash and nair OOS after the second jab
- grab after the second jab (not sure)


if Falco hits us (without us shielding), we can:
- jab after the first and second jab (if he is in range!)
- shine (but shine´s range is too short most of the time)
- don´t know about grab ?

 

[TKD]

Question: Can we punish Falco´s Jab every time?

No.

If he hits us with jab: can we interrupt him between his first and second jab or jab cancel? with nair? our jab? grab? shine?

Our main issue with Falco's jab will be jab to grab. Personally, I've used downb after Falco's jab to shine him out of a grab attempt (shine makes Fox invincible on frames 1~3 and doesn't clash with any move). If he jabs he'll probably be shined too. Let go of down on the control stick to allow its buffer. I've also rolled out: there -IS- a chance to, and maybe you can condition yourself to roll out every time (the buffer for this by the way is inputting a side while holding the block button and letting go of both the block button and the control stick), but I haven't developed this reaction (it's quite difficult). You can also spot-dodge. That's pretty primitive though. Ours sucks unlike his which is godly. Jab is a GREAT idea. If Fox's jab comes out before Falco can grab him after jab cancel, there's a good mix-up for you. I haven't tried it.

If he hits our shield: can we interrupt him betwenn his first and second jab or jab cancel? nair OOS? shieldgrab? maybe usmash after the 2nd jab?

He has mix-up, so I have to break this down. If Falco executes the 2nd jab, you're guaranteed your choice of usmash from block or shield-grab. The first is obviously better, but shield-grab being 2 frames quicker and having a grab armor frame is the safer choice. If you weren't expecting to block jabs, you should shield-grab that 2nd jab because it just comes out quicker. You "can" nair from block: it comes out as quickly as usmash; but why would you when you can usmash in the same situation?

So, Falco's 2nd jab on your shield should be punished. Falco can't come out of jab animation nor execute rapid jabs before Fox can shield-grab or usmash him from block. Again, if you aren't reacting to it, you should either expect it, or you need practice (expecting something lets you react quicker, so you can "fake it 'till you make it", which is at least intimidating).

Now, for Falco's mix-up. The opponent can simply execute the first jab and not the second one on your shield. If you PREDICT this (because you know your opponent, he's done it previously, or from a guess), you can shield-grab or usmash immediately after the first jab (I'd shield-grab unless usmash can trigger the KO reward). An easy way to tell when the opponent only plans to execute the first jab is when his 2nd jab doesn't come out immediately...you can shield-grab at the moment the 2nd jab *would* have hit you. Of course, the opponent can delay his 2nd jab, so while there's more to this, you have the advantage in all jab on block mix-ups unless you're at chain-grabbable percentage.

Overview of jab on block: Punish the 2nd jab every time so the opponent suffers for it (this -guarantees- you usmash from block!). If the opponent doesn't execute the 2nd jab often or at least sometimes, read the single jab to shield-grab quickly or maybe even usmash immediately. If you expected the 2nd jab, it doesn't come, and you want safety instead of committing to a mix-up, you can simply roll away. It's good when you're at cg percentage, since in that situation the mix-up isn't so much in your favor.

I find that this is not a combo if the opponent has 0% sometimes.

Utilt to utilt should -NEVER, EVER- work if your opponent's at such low percentage. It's simply not a combo and will be powerblocked and punished every time. At this percentage you should usually turn around and grab the opponent after the utilt (a staple for Fox); buffered if you have the tech skill. I find this to be pretty optional unlike dair to turn-around action combos, since it works so often. Besides the staple, you can utilt to roll away or if you hard-read the opponent, utilt to turn around and block or wait if your opponent is the kind to spot-dodge or roll immediately after being utilted at super low percents. Don't worry much about these mix-ups, as utilt to grab usually works and if the opponent spot-dodges or rolls after your utilts it'll be very noticeable to you so you're prepared if the situation repeats later in the set.
What I meant about being aerial'd out of an utilt of yours is that I've never, ever been aerialed after an utilt of mine without having a chance to block, so if there's a chance that your opponent's aerial can come out before another utilt, you should block. Also, at the highest percentages for utilt to utilt combo, you shouldn't receive retaliation, and if there's a chance that your opponent might be able to aerial you between utilts, you should BLOCK in case they do it and punish with unblock, utilt; unblock, dsmash, or unblock, turn around grab. See what I mean? It's either utilt x2 into block, or utilt -by #-, into block (the best way to tell when it'll no longer combo is when the last utilt doesn't sweet-spot)...unless the opponent is at such low percentage that you should do the staple utilt to turn-around grab, which tops higher the heavier the opposing character is. If you feel reckless, lazy, or like sandbagging (I know I sure do quite often), you can simply utilt until it trades with an opponent's aerial, although this is a very lazy/careless/arrogant thing to do. Oh! And if the opponent's in the air when you catch them with utilt, remember they'll take longer to reach the ground, so you can turn around and block or just block after the utilt in said situation at percentages at which you usually turn-around grab. This is more advanced and pretty self-explanatory so you'll get used to it automatically, but it may be worth explaining: It's easy to tell since the opponent'll look like they'll be able to execute an aerial before they'll reach the ground (which they can), and you can tell when you land such a high utilt because of the sour-spot (sounds softer, hits later).
I hope this was helpful as it's very important. Utilt is a very good move.

I tested it today with a crew member,

if Falco hits us (without us shielding), we can:
- jab after the first and second jab (if he is in range!)
- shine (but shine´s range is too short most of the time)
- don´t know about grab ?

Good find! Falco should usually end up in range for the jab because they try to grab you, so if they appear to move any closer when out of range, you can simply intercept them. So that's another option. If there's time to jab him, there's time to roll too though; which works if the opponent doesn't expect it (if they do expect it and just wait or walk straight into your direction, they'll fall for anything because of their commitment). Grab is probably too slow It's 6 frames (jab is 3) and not only when you're slower, but even when both chars grab at the same time, there's a 50/50 chance of either landing it (the result is randomized by the game).

edit: LOL FALCO WILL NEVER JAB US AGAIN

P.S.: This point -has- to come out eventually, so I might as well address it.
- Standing/walking grab (it's the same move) start-up: 6 frames
- Usmash start-up: 8 frames

"TKD, which reaches longer in front of Fox; grab or usmash?"
Grab does.

\/ lol \/

 

[DEHF]

edit: LOL FALCO WILL NEVER JAB US AGAIN

I will

 

[Rizk18]

I will

You should never! But then again theres that one Justin Beiber song Never Say Never lmaoo. It's so badxD

 

[C.R.Z]

i played kasper all night yesterday...DEHF your doing it wrong

<3 DEHF

 

[Conviction]

*Looks at thread*

*Nods*

 

[TKD]

Posted this on an AIB member's wall

Some Fox techniques:
- Full hop uair into platform, executed early enough to land on the platform without landing lag.
- Autocancel uair. Be it learning when to fast-fall from a fullhop so you still get the autocancel, or to perform it quickly enough so you'll land lagless from a short-hop, this is a useful juggling move.
- Air-hopped uair into higher platform, executed early enough to land on the platform without landing lag.
- Buffering fair from a short hop. For this you have to press the "Attack" button before Fox leaves the ground. A buffered fair from short-hop makes Fox hover and all of his five kicks strike at the same height. You'll also suffer no landing cool-down (autocancel) if you don't fast-fall it. This is useful to counter empty short-hops and to strike at opponents that stand on low platforms (like battlefield's) from below.
- Controlling fair's height. If you press "attack" near the beginning of a full hop or air-jump, Fox will rise as each kick comes out. If you press "attack" at the middle of your full or air hop, Fox will maintain the same height for all five kicks. This is great for punishing extremely early air-dodges and things like Meta Knight's upb from the ground (the height he reaches is perfectly lined up for full hop fair to land all five kicks).
- Locating usmash's sweet-spot. It extends over Fox's head. If you want to test it, place a Meta Knight (I'm sure it works on him; I think some chars like Marth "hover" over it because of standing on their toes) on one of battlefield's side platforms and usmash him from below. Usmash from dash must be timed well because Fox'll slide while performing it.
- Buffering grabs. The buffer window for anything is 10 frames. Press and release the grab button -"flick" it- (you must have released before you can move or else your character will block, because blocking overrides buffers) before you can move.
- Buffering turn-around actions. As you hold the Control Stick toward Fox's backside, release it during the buffer window and buffer the action you wish to perform.
- This means you should be able to perform dair to grab, dair to turn-around grab, and dair to turn-around usmash, BUFFERED. There are other, more advanced buffers like turn-around utilt, which are good but not completely essential like the rest of the techs I mention.
- Buffering dashes. During buffer window, you have to input a dash (tap forward) and release the control stick (walking overrides buffers, so you have to release it before you can move). To buffer a dash and keep dashing, buffer a dash and hold forward so Fox keeps dashing once started. Buffering dashes is an excellent way to combo dair into dash attack and dash usmash, as well as chasing the opponent as soon as possible after throwing them.
- Note on buffered dashes: You can flick the Control stick for buffering a forward dash if you like, but the command for buffering a dash towards your back is more demanding and doesn't allow "flicking" the stick: you need to tap the stick backwards and move your thumb back so the stick regains neutral position without springing back.
- Buffer rolls. A roll is buffered by pressing and releasing the control stick towards either side while holding a block button, and releasing both the stick and the button before you can move. This, like turn-around buffers, is more difficult than simple buffers but you get used to it. It's useful for those moments you wish you could roll away as soon as possible, like when you land from Illusion and may be able to escape the opponent.
- Usmash from block. You can jump-canceled usmash from shield. While blocking, slide your thumb from jump to attack button while holding up.
- Autocancel bair. Shorthop or fullhop bair and let the kick finish before touching the ground, way in which you land without cool-down. Essential against Snake. If you want to learn to time it near perfection, set up training mode against a dummy pikachu or kirby, and try to hit them with Fox's OTHER foot (the one he DOESN'T kick with so it looks like you stepped on the opponent) during autocancel bair. Yes, it is possible. You'll improve your autocancel bair's height a lot with this training trick.
- First and third Illusion cancel lengths. The first is the shortest one. It's useful as a reaction. The third is the longest possible one. With experience, you'll learn to notice which one you pulled off (second or third) and you'll know when the opponent only reached you because you missed the third length. The key to learning it is repetition. My trick when executing them, is picturing where Fox will be when I want him to cancel the Illusion, and press B when I feel he'll get there. If something else works better for you (sound cues, "feel", etc.), go ahead with that though.
- 22.5 degree variations for Firefox. The key is to feel a corner in the controller's texture (it should have sharp borders around the Control Stick) and move slightly from there before firefox blasts off. This is good for sweet-spots, reaching the ledge, etc..
- Low short hop laser. Simple: training mode, Kirby or Pikachu. You're doing it right if you land the lasers.
- Low short hop double laser. Simple: training mode, Kirby or Pikachu. You're doing it right if you land the lower laser. This gives you a tad less mobility than the previous technique.
- Short hop triple laser. Buffer the first laser from a short hop and press "Special" twice more. The third press is mysteriously difficult until you get used to it. Reaching the "Special" button is something you have to learn too, unless you have both Y and X set to jump, in which case you can set the other to "Special" so you don't have to learn to bend your thumb that way. I don't recommend L or R for jump or special as those buttons are usually too stiff unless you have a cool and special older controller.
- Jab 2x. Given that rapid kicks are Fox's absolute worst move, you should never perform it: Hold "attack" for the jab, and release as soon as the second jab comes out. Second jab can be pretty surprising and allow a grab follow-up. If you want to perform a new jab after the second jab (which isn't all that essential), you have to do something called a "jab cancel" (crouching during jab's cool-down to allow the earlier re-execution of the first jab).

These are all essential, right? This needs its own thread. I'll probably compile and organize this thread into a Fox guide in the future anyway though. Edit: Unless someone does it for me, HINT HINT.

TOPIC SWITCH
Idea! I think we can counter Falco's short-hop aerials as he lands by hitting him with utilt's disjointed sweet-spot (the lowest, earliest, disjointed one that extends the most behind Fox). It already counters Lucario's entire move-set, so it can probably handle these couple moves. It's easy to execute, just hold up+back slightly so you can utilt with the C-stick. That'll make handling his short-hop aerials quite easy. We can already shield-grab his short hop nair, but between having to zone in to grab his nair, or having to powerblock to grab his dair if well-spaced; or if awaiting whiffs having to expect a dair (since nair is much harder to punish), a common counter would make CQC easier. Improving our CQC will always be good since Fox and Falco can't camp each other anyway.

 

[Chef Fox]

TOPIC SWITCH
Idea! I think we can counter Falco's short-hop aerials as he lands by hitting him with utilt's disjointed sweet-spot (the lowest, earliest, disjointed one that extends the most behind Fox). It already counters Lucario's entire move-set, so it can probably handle these couple moves. It's easy to execute, just hold up+back slightly so you can utilt with the C-stick. That'll make handling his short-hop aerials quite easy. We can already shield-grab his short hop nair, but between having to zone in to grab his nair, or having to powerblock to grab his dair if well-spaced; or if awaiting whiffs having to expect a dair (since nair is much harder to punish), a common counter would make CQC easier. Improving our CQC will always be good since Fox and Falco can't camp each other anyway.

Should we just walk away a little bit as soon as Falco does a short hop far enought to get the Utilt, then wait for his aerial and hit him as he lands? Is that all we have to do?

 

[TKD]

Yeah; and if he doesn't hop we can walk up to him and grab or block, or do our own aerials. I think dair is good vs his spot-dodge, dsmash on reaction too, wait+grab if you're sharp; and autocanceled bair is a good option for an aerial. Just to finish covering that, I'll cover that match-up well. You should QCDI his spike upwards and air-jump to the ledge if you're chaingrabbed, but you should be adept enough at your zoning walk, hops, and fluid aggressiveness for it to be kind of tricky to grab you (you either bair, land at his back, wait outside his range, walk in and grab, etc). I no longer like avoiding Falco because I think there are ways for him to trap you.

As for his short hop laser, it's risky for him if he's too close: he's vulnerable mostly to dash attack but dash usmash is possible (as it's also possible to dash usmash him as he suffers his dair's landing cool-down). Being zoned in to the point you can punish his lasers, but outside of his grab range is the best spot you can act from; unless he doesn't intercept your hops with sooner-rather-than-later lasers from shorthops, in which case he's letting you hop so you can SHL him. If he's too far away or you're late to act vs his SHL, you can (and sometimes probably should) reflect his lasers and hop cancel (roll cancel may be good sometimes, but I'm not sure). If you want to shine a laser while dashing, buffer the shine from a hop. And if you want to gamble it, walk up, block the laser and punish a blocked jab, grab immediately, or spot-dodge ASAP after the laser to spot-dodge his grab and punish him (I'd rather roll away than spot-dodge, but it's good for the specific kind of player that'll grab immediately). What you should do is a mix-up thing: Falco can mostly wait, spot-dodge, jab or grab after his laser. btw you should powerblock every laser and always block high so your ears don't get hit.

Dash attack is the easiest counter I've found to his Phantom. If Falco's too close (he's invincible during the first 3rd of Phantasm's trajectory), you can dash attack away from him (unless he Phantasms so close to you that he's straight up open for dash attack or dash usmash). You should, of course, attempt to juggle him after landing the dash attack. When Falco is at very high % and will Phantom into me, I like to face away from him and time an usmash to KO him too. I'm not sure how difficult this is as it sounds so, but it works for me when the opponent does this move (they usually aren't aware of how risky it is), and at least it's worth the risk vs reward. The best moment to expect Falco to Phantasm into you is, of course, when he's recovering. (it's either that, a Firebird, or a Phantasm to the ledge. A good Falco may mix-up with Phantasm aimed to you and level 1 canceling it, but you can ledgehug that for a stock).

If you want a fancy counter, you can dair his Phantasm, jab him so he touches the ground, and smash him during his landing penalty (which for some reason doesn't take place if you're pinned to the ground by Fox's dair).

 

[GOAT22]

i didnt know about the different fairs. thats interesting. i think i always buffer mine or do the rising one

-trevonte

 

[TKD]

Not rising as much is useful to land the most kicks possible and to avoid retaliation if they SDI out. Also, I don't think it's possible to retaliate after SDIing out if Fox spaces away during the fair to tipper each kick.

 

[Chef Fox]

Hey can we maybe revive this thread a little? It's amazing.
TKD what do you think about the BBR's new matchup chart and all of the matchups they gave Fox? Are there any that you strongly disagree with?

 

[TKD]

I don't keep an eye on the BBR's activity. No offense, but I think people should stir things up and vote on a new set of BBR members, to include worthy SWF members like Ankoku, DEHF, M2K and myself. I don't know how adept Ankoku is at SSBB, but I remember him having the best combination of smarts and eloquence (which most players lack).

Anyway, onto Fox's match-ups.

Difficult: WAR, PIK, IC
Close (bad): Z/S, PIT, FAL, KIR, MAR
Even: SKE, MK, WOL, DID, OLI, ZSS
Close (good): POK, PEA, ROB
Easy: G&W, DDD, DON, LUI, MRO, LCO, TOO, BOW, NES, SON
Very easy: IKE, YOS, LIN, CAP, LCS, JIG, GAN, SAM

Falco, Marth and Kirby have felt from slightly bad to even and vice-versa several times, so I can't pinpoint their position. You could say they're even but require more concentration, you could say they're close but with a slight edge for the other player. I'd agree either way.

I only consider Wario, Pikachu and Ice Climbers as truly disadvantageous. We have the options to defeat a player of any of the rest consistently. Fox -can- defeat these three though, unlike previously believed.

Many think Zelda/Sheik is a very bad match-up. Her recovery is bad enough for dsmash to mean trouble, she's very light too. You have to watch out for ftilt and fair or nair (which combo into ftilt), so don't land with air-dodge, watch for her aerials (it's not like her short-hop's super short anyway), and shield-grab the ftilt. Oh yeah, Sheik lacks landing tools, unlike us, so she can also be juggled well.

 

[Chuee]

I don't keep an eye on the BBR's activity. No offense, but I think people should stir things up and vote on a new set of BBR members, to include worthy SWF members like Ankoku, DEHF, M2K and myself. I don't know how adept Ankoku is at SSBB, but I remember him having the best combination of smarts and eloquence (which most players lack).

Anyway, onto Fox's match-ups.

Difficult: WAR, PIK, IC
Close (bad): Z/S, PIT, FAL, KIR, MAR
Even: SKE, MK, WOL, DID, OLI, ZSS
Close (good): POK, PEA, ROB
Easy: G&W, DDD, DON, LUI, MRO, LCO, TOO, BOW, NES, SON
Very easy: IKE, YOS, LIN, CAP, LCS, JIG, GAN, SAM

Falco, Marth and Kirby have felt from slightly bad to even and vice-versa several times, so I can't pinpoint their position. You could say they're even but require more concentration, you could say they're close but with a slight edge for the other player. I'd agree either way.

I only consider Wario, Pikachu and Ice Climbers as truly disadvantageous. We have the options to defeat a player of any of the rest consistently. Fox -can- defeat these three though, unlike previously believed.

Many think Zelda/Sheik is a very bad match-up. Her recovery is bad enough for dsmash to mean trouble, she's very light too. You have to watch out for ftilt and fair or nair (which combo into ftilt), so don't land with air-dodge, watch for her aerials (it's not like her short-hop's super short anyway), and shield-grab the ftilt. Oh yeah, Sheik lacks landing tools, unlike us, so she can also be juggled well.

Where would you put Zelda and Sheik individually on Fox's MU chart.

 

[TKD]

Sheik the same. Zelda very easy. I don't think Sheik players should limit themselves that way though.

 

[*CT*]

Soooo much useful information, thank you.

 

[TKD]

Uair has small disjoints above Fox and to his sides. If I remember correctly, you can juggle some characters while countering their smaller disjoints (Falco, Kirby) from below and the side. Now the question is: Which disjoint is bigger? In front of Fox, or behind him?

I remember receiving complaints about uair's disjoint while effortlessly (enough to not keep in mind how good it is) taking advantage of it, so it's big enough.

 

[Chef Fox]

I've noticed this disjoint too, and I feel like maybe the disjoint behind Fox is bigger. I can't really remember but I know it does beat things like Kirby's Dair.

 

[zZBlazeZz]

i wana see the travaunteh thread. lo0pl
jk JK

 

[RPK]

Do you think auto cancel'd Uairs would help in the Wario MU?

 

[crifer]

Do you think auto cancel'd Uairs would help in the Wario MU?

I had that Idea, too, but in practice the wario would probably just airdodge through it out of your range or land near to you which would probably end in a guessing game.
But it´s a quite good defensive move.

 

[RPK]

He might airdodge through it, but it'd leave you both at a 0+ frames I'd think since Uair will have no landing lag, and neither will Wario when he hits the ground. Or maybe, if spaced right, you might be able to Utilt him when he hits the ground since there about 2 frames of landing lag just by landing and you might hit the ground before he does.

 

[TKD]

The Wario match-up's hopeless. lol
Maybe not but I don't have any Wario to practice against. Let's all go DDD! In all seriousness uair may be good if he full hops. Maybe.

 

[RPK]

I know Utilt does help a lot though. Except when he mixes it up with a bite...Then...Can't really do anything there. What do you think of using Fair in this match up?

 

[crifer]

If I´m looking at toon link´s frame data...
if we nair his shield we can jab him before he can do anythign except nair...if he´s not using nair OOS go for nair to jab.

 

[TKD]

Toon Link is -easy-! I don't even think you need to commit that much unless you feel like showing off, which you probably can. About Wario, I'm in no position to say anything, really; I have no experience to base myself on.

By the way, you need practice to do it consistently, but utilt is better than Dash Attack on Falco's Phantasm. All you need to do is perform it while facing Falco (in most cases, people face away from him, but Fox's utilt strikes to his back). This is possible on reaction, which means that he can be open to either an utilt or a ledgehog gimp.

 

[RPK]

So standing next to the ledge would be optimal? Or where on the stage would you stand? And why not jab instead of U-tilt? By doing a jab, you would stop Falco right in front of you where you can retaliate on him with practically anything you want. Or you can do Nair if it makes him slide across the ground. In addition to the hitstun from Nair, he'd be in addition 30 frames for getting hit out of Illusion. Also, does the back of Nair knock Falco out of hitstun?

 

[crifer]

I don´t think TL is easy... I have such a hard time against Tink O.o I´m always running into those ****ing projectiles. But I thought about it and maybe I should not run on the ground and try to power shield them but go up in the air and approach more vertical

jab does not beat falco´s sideB. but his jab beats ours. crazy world.