the TKD thread

[knuckles213]

I played Ally in tourney. Would appreciate if you guys would give my set a look. I would've posted it in the video thread but that thread is dead lol.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=myc2tv6YDNk

I not very good a critiquing

but from what I seen: (to be honest after watching you play ally's mk, I feel like I could play him and win)

you play pretty well with a wiimote; imo I think if you had a game cubecontoller you would have had and easier time or could have beaten ally, but props to being able to short and SHTL.

- I've notice you dont air dodge as much or even fast fall air dodge
- you don't DI as much (it would have helped out a lot seen is how you were getting juggle bit by mk) (the c-stick is the best for that)
- if the MK user is over using upB then read and punish it with OoS Usmash. (if he glides past you, RUN AFTER HIS *** AND USMASH HIM)
- try not to shine stall to much against Mk you'll just keep getting punished with upB
- I would say don't spam Dair so much, but that seem to work against ally. usually MK players will read that and shield it for a grab or OoS Nair
- I notice you don't mix it up when recovering which makes it fairly easy for opponents to read you and punish your recovery
- how come you dont Fair as a recover or a damage racking up mix-up?
- also against Mk you gotta have a good grab game, plus when mk uses nado just shield (tilt it up so it doesn't poke) then Usmash as a punish.
- I would say keep lasering every couple of seconds when you get a chance, but seen as your use the wiimote that could be diffcult

overall you did well, but I'd say practicing DI more so you can live to higher percents vs shuttle loop, fast fall air dodge or just plain air dodge, mix up your recovery.

well its not a very go critique, but I hop this helps. the other foxes do a better job at this. plus TKD knows a lot Mk like the back of his hand.



@TKD thanks, I feel like I can take on mk with knowing few more tricks, but what can I do if mk like to play clutch and isn't making it easy for the kill? I can do mostly is grab or rack up damage and hope for the Utilt kill. do you know ways of trapping or applying pressure to a mk user?

 

[TKD]

@crz i was hella faded dude. my first rounds i didn't even know which character i was or how many stocks i had left. coaching wouldn't help either; i couldn't really listen to anyone.
i heard lain does that too, i gotta stop it lol

the mk thing uhh lots of players do that. you can land a couple more hits and now bair/dsmash/uair kill. rising sh dair combos into the next hits by fastfalling it too which is interesting and can surprise a blocking opponent. and no need to fastfalll if they're blocking i think. if it's falco i'll just kinda camp too until i can send him offstage and kill his recovery. no need to be too hasty, just the fact that they have to avoid your ko move since kinda early gives you an advantage.

 

[C.R.Z]

@crz i was hella faded dude. my first rounds i didn't even know which character i was or how many stocks i had left. coaching wouldn't help either; i couldn't really listen to anyone.
i heard lain does that too, i gotta stop it lol

the mk thing uhh lots of players do that. you can land a couple more hits and now bair/dsmash/uair kill. rising sh dair combos into the next hits by fastfalling it too which is interesting and can surprise a blocking opponent. and no need to fastfalll if they're blocking i think. if it's falco i'll just kinda camp too until i can send him offstage and kill his recovery. no need to be too hasty, just the fact that they have to avoid your ko move since kinda early gives you an advantage.

LOL makes complete sense. man i thought you wanted to win this one, ah well XD

 

[TKD]

I actually did. Bad decisions, man...

 

[C.R.Z]

I actually did. Bad decisions, man...

ah, well at least you know now. I really wanna come to a major, UK smash is atm way too easy, all the top players quit.

 

[knuckles213]

Hey TKD,

Quick question do you fast fall all your movements even when you laser? I was watching your old vids notice you either fast fall every single move you make or your just quick.

 

[Ayce God]

tkd, your matches at e4u where weird, lol your friendly with the european however was very nice, what do you think about him?

 

[Rizk18]

TKD can you review my match?

 

[TKD]

@rizk It'd take too long. I haven't watched it tho.
@nova Mr-R is pretty cool. His English is good, too.
@knuckles I fastfall when I can. You can only fastfall blasters in SSBM. If I guess correctly, blastering actually cancels fastfalls. I say this because you can fastfall, blaster, and fastfall again...found that out like years ago playing target test.

 

[Ayce God]

I meant do you think you could beat him? with fox?

 

[TKD]

maybe.

10char

 

[Rizk18]

You think you can review my match when you can? It's not too long.

 

[fox67890]

Thoughts about short hop nair/bair?

 

[TKD]

@Rizk: "Come back when you can put up a fight"?
@fox#####: They rock, I guess LOL. Autocancel is best vs Snake who can ftilt from block if you get landing cooldown. MKs often won't expect its range so it'll work sometimes. Something good about AC bair is that you get frame advantage if the opponent airdodges it. It's also quite safe on block if you hit an opponent on a platform. Them blocking it can also push them off of it which is good if they fall on their back.

Nair is amazing because you can mikehaze it (drift away vs block and punish whiffed shieldgrab). If you space it away from olimar's shield usmash, he can't really do anything to it unless he powerblocks. Nair is great and counters a bunch of things, and works well as a crossup. Nair to grab will work on the backs of shields because they're expecting an utilt right after it. Nair to block can punish punish attempts too.

Then there's nair to walk grab as a combo (or nair buffer grab at like 0%), or nair to dash attack a bit later. Weak nair to dash usmash and strong nair to dash, wait for airdodge, usmash are good killers. I like nair. He's a good guy.

 

[knuckles213]

hey TKD do you know any good use of side smash. I know if you use it , its slow and punishable and doesn't have much killing power; may theres set-ups to kill with it. two moves I dont see get much use is side smash or F-tilt.

 

[Bing]

I like Using Forward Smash on certain characters recoveries, such as the diddy side B, Snakes Recovery. F-tilt is garbage though. Also In my Impulse pool I had V115, Luckay4Lyphe and MPrime. 1 ZSS and 2 Pika's. FML. Then In amateur bracket, in which I got 9th, I got a Falco first round, had an incredibly close set, game 3 last stock high %. Then in losers I lost to a Lucario, I have no idea how to fight Lucario....

Was still a lot of fun, I surprised some people like Red X with my Fox. Sucks I got all bad MUs in my pool...

 

[fox67890]

I usually don't use sidesmash or ftilt. Perhaps they have a use in pushing people off platforms though?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jnkqn85_Gss

Fsmash:

Idk why, but if you use it when you and your opponent are close to the edge of a platform, not only will he fall off (in tumble animation...it's called that right?), but you'll just fall off regularly and can do what you wish from there. I'm not sure if this is really helpful though.

Ftilt:

I like to use this move to also push people off platforms. Now that I come to think about it...full hop dair autocancels from ground level to the middle platforms on BF. Since dair autocancels in this situation, perhaps there's enough time to go from a full hop dair>ftilt(since dair autocanceled)> *opponent falls off platform*. I'm not sure if this works frame data wise though, plus it would be hard to land.

That's what I could come up with. I can't really think of other uses.

 

[knuckles213]

the only good uses I can think of are: you can f-tilt lock someone (same as falco's laser lock), but thats if they get knock off the platform and you respond with that action or you use f-tilt to as a knock back attack (it can kill, but I don't know the percents and it has three directions as well).

I haven't seen those two move used since 08 or 09 (side smash and f-tilt)

is there any way to include them in a mix-up cause I dont think people are going to expect those two moves to be used over Usmash, fair, nair, or dair,

 

[fox67890]

Hey TKD, question from me whenever you get the chance. Could you perhaps explain ledge trapping(or pressuring your opponent when they are on the ledge) with Fox?

 

[Rizk18]

@Rizk: "Come back when you can put up a fight"?

What?






.

 

[fox67890]

^ I believe that would be MK's victory taunt lol

 

[TKD]

Hey TKD, question from me whenever you get the chance. Could you perhaps explain ledge trapping(or pressuring your opponent when they are on the ledge) with Fox?

I like to stay exactly outside their range, for example outside of marth's airjump to nair range. then if they come back with airjump airdodge or an aerial, you can punish with dash attack. if you wait for a ledge attack and they only ledge climb, dash attack will push them back to the ledge if they block. just watch out for ppl that buffer roll as soon as they get on.

oh yeah if they ledge jump you won't punish unless you read/intercept but they're above you anyway which is advantageous.

btw. i like ftilt. ppl don't expect it so they don't even punish it. also whiffed/blocked ftilt to bdacus can work because it's unexpected.

 

[Orion*]

Ftilts soooo unsafe though. I really tried thinking of ways to use it, and implement it into standard play but it's slower, has similar range, and is significantly more unsafe on block than jab. It doesn't have a high reward either, which is my main problem.

Wiff ftilt -> stuff is a good bait
And if people don't know how/that it is punishable I'd do it on block (I think people assume it's like falcos and that they will get usmashed for trying to hit you lol)

 

[TKD]

yeah ftilt is just kind of a surprise or gimmick sometimes. i can ftilt snake in hopes that he'll try to ftilt so it counters or something. ftilt can also push ppl into the ledge if they're really close to it. it's just an...improvisational thingy.

it's by no means anywhere nearly as useful as fox's best moves. fox's moveset isn't stellar outside of like, shine and nair though. since it's not so much his moveset that makes him strong but his walk, dash, fast-fall and that kinda movement stuff that would make like, any char better.

i actually think fox, mk, and ic are the best chars in the game as long as you don't make fox fight pika or marth.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Since when is Marth a problem for Fox? Let alone a bigger one then ICs?

 

[Orion*]

Since when is Marth a problem for Fox? Let alone a bigger one then ICs?

I'm gonna assume he just forgot to put ICs, but Marth definitely beats fox. It's not like a bad mu persay, fox will win if he just outskills the marth, but fox is commonly put into bad positions where if the marth doesn't **** up he can get *****.

If marth doesn't drop gimps/edgegaurds/cgs he should probably win 6:4 imo.

@tkd

I think fox is viable against most of the cast but I wouldn't put him that high simply just because of the fact that he doesn't just win for free. He has to be on point and gauge risk reward more than most other high tier characters, in a similar way to marth, although their way of playing and the actual result is completely different.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

It's not like a bad mu persay, fox will win if he just outskills the marth, but fox is commonly put into bad positions where if the marth doesn't **** up he can get *****.

I'm pretty sure the reverse applies as well [if it doesn't apply in most non-**** match-ups anyway]. Then again, I trust TKD's opinion on his character more than mine. I just found the idea of Marth being a bigger problem to Fox than Sheik or Olimar [let alone ICs] really surprising and counter-intuitive.

 

[M@v]

Since when is Marth a problem for Fox? Let alone a bigger one then ICs?

I don't think hes a bigger problem than ICs, but as others have stated, its really hard for fox. IMO its his hardest matchup that doesnt involve dumb 0-death locks and cgs.

 

[knuckles213]

I don't think hes a bigger problem than ICs, but as others have stated, its really hard for fox. IMO its his hardest matchup that doesnt involve dumb 0-death locks and cgs.

I think marth would be a bigger problem, ICs arn't hard if you know what your doing

@orion the japanese got it right with the tier list

 

[Orion*]

I'm pretty sure the reverse applies as well [if it doesn't apply in most non-**** match-ups anyway]. Then again, I trust TKD's opinion on his character more than mine. I just found the idea of Marth being a bigger problem to Fox than Sheik or Olimar [let alone ICs] really surprising and counter-intuitive.

Not exactly

Marth can fight and keep up with Marth, but unless marth get's hard baited, makes a mistake or overcomits it's much harder for fox to Force bad positions onto him than the other way around.

The main problem marth will have with the MU is that he can't just space you out 100% of the time, eventually he has to go in because of lasers. But assuming he understands that (the mu), and zones properly he shouldnt be getting ****ed up.

I don't think hes a bigger problem than ICs, but as others have stated, its really hard for fox. IMO its his hardest matchup that doesnt involve dumb 0-death locks and cgs.

I could agree to this bar the fact that marth does cg fox, and has a 0-death also

I think marth would be a bigger problem, ICs arn't if you know what your doing

@orion the japanese got it right with the tier list

You're gonna need more than an opinion to post like this LMAO

 

[M@v]

@ orion lemme rephrase. Dumb cg that doesnt work at all percents. Also fox can survive the 0 death, but will likely get hit off stage again. Survive the 0 death by rising fair then upb.

 

[Orion*]

Pretty sure marth can option select that ....

 

[TKD]

marth is worse than IC. marth is worse than sheik. fox marth is 30/70.
ic are fragile because of the helper. fox just plays like lots of chars vs ic except being at strugglable percents doesn't help like with most chars.
sheik's only bad if she ftilts fox offstage (like, out of fox illusion) and stage spikes with bair and it's not teched. landing ftilt onstage is hard if the fox is looking for it (it's pretty much all i'll bait). fair to ftilt works though. her recovery makes her extremely fragile too. if reappearing from vanish had a hitbox, sheik would be high tier. but it doesn't.

marth is really, really bad. as fox, i LOSE to the same marths i can sometimes 3 stock as mk -in general beat consistently- (they're good marths though like neneh, mikehaze, wonf).

i think it goes something like:
vs marth: 3/7
vs pika: 3/7 or 2/8
vs ic: 4/6
vs sheik: 4/6

ic and sheik are POSSIBLY 3/7 but i've never found them as tough for fox than marth or pika. i would actually go fox vs ic/sheik (i'd only do it vs an ic or sheik that's proven to **** mks though). never vs a marth or pika main (pocket marth/pika i can beat, often surprisingly easily. if all you know how to do is press Z and only choose pika because of the matchup, i'm probably beating that pika).

all other matchups are even or better.
it's like i'm trying to convince you guys but you can think whatever you want. i'm just pretty confident about this data as a good fox/mk. i have a lot of bad days which is why i play like m2k vs earth almost every time i go to the states but usually my mk is really good. i don't practice at all though so it's random sometimes fox is good sometimes mk is good but only with practice are they both in shape.

btw foxes: team with g&w. i think it's our best one. fox is the best char in the game at filling the bucket. you give him an awesome move really often. triple laser fills a bucket. while filling it, he gets invincible frames so if they try to punish and whiff because of invincibility you can punish the whiffed move or g&w can just escape (i made snake's utilt whiff through my partner by filling his bucket, and my partner punished the utilt with oil panic. game. lol. also normal stuff like marth and mk whiffing smashes and me punishing them since triple blaster has almost no landing lag). since shots as high as triple blaster reach the bucket, you can fill the bucket across opponents if the lasers pass above them. blasters fill the bucket even if g&w is slightly behind you. bucket has 5 invincible frames, like marth's upb. it does 25% damage (it's the weakest of the buckets). it's a KO move. it shieldstuns a lot. you kill at 100~120%, g&w kills at 70~90%. it's a beastly thing.

 

[DEHF]

Are you trolling about Marth fox being 7-3? If not, why do you think it's so bad?

 

[fox67890]

I'm curious as to why you think its that bad also. You seem to do relatively well vs top Marths.

Do you by any chance have any vids vs pika, ICs, or Sheik TKD?

 

[TKD]

/\ i do well vs top marths because i play mk.

i'm almost sure fox vs marth is borderline impossible. there's a chance mike and nene just outplay me, but i don't think so. if they're just outplaying me it would at least feel fair. i don't even feel like testing ideas to make the matchup better. i grew tired of that.

 

[M@v]

You may feel like that because mk is just THAT better at the matchup. MK is the only matchup marth loses badly.

The difficulty difference between using mk and fox in the mu may affect your matchup reasoning.


Just a theory.

I don't think its 3/7, but definitely fox's worst mu apart from pika/icy/sheik imo. Its a mu I don't want to go fox in unless i feel they dont know the mu at all and I can gimmick them.

 

[Jet300]

You may feel like that because mk is just THAT better at the matchup. MK is the only matchup marth loses badly.

The difficulty difference between using mk and fox in the mu may affect your matchup reasoning.


Just a theory.

I don't think its 3/7, but definitely fox's worst mu apart from pika/icy/sheik imo. Its a mu I don't want to go fox in unless i feel they dont know the mu at all and I can gimmick them.

I agree with you. Marth is fox worst MU without the infinites and locks. He's definitely not a 3/7 MU. 4/6 in Marth's favor. Marth can never be worst than IC's TKD. ICs have infinites. Most likely he's a -2 MU. I also tried Gnw,TKD. I did pretty well in a friendly with him. I agree that Marth is harder than sheik. She has a Ftlit lock that's starts on 35%, but no fox is going to let her do that. Shes a -2

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I don't get it ... =/

 

[Jet300]

I don't get it ... =/

My bad if you didn't understand. I was saying that Marth is not harder Ice climbers. He's hader than sheik. Sheik has Ftilt lock starts on 35% and she actually has to hit with it. Marth is harder than sheik. From what M@v told me about the MU "he can upb out of a lot of your strings so watch it." He also has a chain grab on fox until 0% and can get a tipper Fsmash.

Sorry you didnt understand.