Social The Suburbs of Onett - Ness Social Thread

[neomadgic]

EB360 - You make great valid points on why Ness was better in Brawl than Smash 4. Moveset wise - that might be true

However, there's 2 HUGE changes that made smash 4 Ness BETTER.

First - no grab release... Like seriously. This is a HUGE game changer. If ness in brawl didn't have this, he would of been sooooooo much better.

second thing - It is A LOT harder to gimp his recovery. You can't just sit on top of him anymore.


But I completely see your point, some of his moves did get nerf (RIP Dair), but overall, the grab release was truly holding him down. And with this new ness, we have a ness that can live longer. Revealing his true potential.

 

[Luco]

Something to consider, and this is a pretty bold statement; is that rage buffs ness more than ANYONE else in the game sans maybe diddy.

Shields in this game have been nerfed, making characters with grab games more potent and the ones defining our early meta game. A character who can ignore one of the most defensive options in the game to kill you outright is ludicrous. Sure we have to get them up to 110/120 (less with rage, i'll get to that in a sec) but once we do, we're like little Mac ALL the time WITHOUT his aerial and offstage weaknesses. Who else can you name that can ignore shield and kill you like that in the same way? Ice clim- oh wait! Ness has basically taken over the role of 'scariest grabber in the game at high percents' with only Diddy to rival him.

And with rage, suddenly this risk vs reward is RIDICULOUS. Not only do you ignore grabs, but now you can kill half the cast when they're at 90% because they didn't kill you fast enough, and the other 50% are dying at 120/130 which is damn early for them. Do you really want to play footsies with a character who not only outranges you in the air (as Fair still does on 80% of the cast) but can run in, grab you and end your stock like that? In a game where good and accessable kill power defines who is good and who is bad... Ness is a winner. Like, a really big winner.

And I agree, you can't just compare him to Brawl Ness. In this game, everyone's changed. You can tell me his range was reduced, but that means nothing if i'm still outranging 80%+ of the cast... which I do. =P

 

[Noa.]

In this game dash attack and fair outrange most characters. The only ones who aren't outranged are basically sword users and Rosalina. Ness's range in this game is great because he outranges most other characters.

I think the comparison to Icies that Shaya makes is kind of disingenuous. It is true that we have a similar risk reward ratio compared to Icies in our grab. The bigger problem with Icies was that they could do this at any percent. It doesn't matter if you rack Icies up to 150 damage and they haven't touched you once. If you get grabbed at 0 you die. Such a stupid character lol. Thankfully they're removed.

Though Ness's bthrow is still pretty stupid lol.

 

[Luco]

In this game dash attack and fair outrange most characters. The only ones who aren't outranged are basically sword users and Rosalina. Ness's range in this game is great because he outranges most other characters.

I think the comparison to Icies that Shaya makes is kind of disingenuous. It is true that we have a similar risk reward ratio compared to Icies in our grab. The bigger problem with Icies was that they could do this at any percent. It doesn't matter if you rack Icies up to 150 damage and they haven't touched you once. If you get grabbed at 0 you die. Such a stupid character lol. Thankfully they're removed.

Though Ness's bthrow is still pretty stupid lol.

Ah, I meant to mention that we can only be ICs past 90% if we're at rage; but yeah I know we can't be like them all the time but even at low percents our grab is scary because combos and it's only at mid percents (about 40%-100%) that our grab is average. =P

 

[Noa.]

Ah, I meant to mention that we can only be ICs past 90% if we're at rage; but yeah I know we can't be like them all the time but even at low percents our grab is scary because combos and it's only at mid percents (about 40%-100%) that our grab is average. =P

Meh even then fthrow or uthrow to pk thunder juggling. I mean it's weakest at mid percents but it's still pretty ****ing awesome lol. :V

And I was more referencing a post Shaya made in the character thread. I remember him likening Ness to Icies but perhaps I'm just remembering it incorrectly.

 

[Luco]

Meh even then fthrow or uthrow to pk thunder juggling. I mean it's weakest at mid percents but it's still pretty ****ing awesome lol. :V

And I was more referencing a post Shaya made in the character thread. I remember him likening Ness to Icies but perhaps I'm just remembering it incorrectly.

Nah you're right, Shaya's pretty bugged by Ness' grab game heheheheh.

 

[Tikao]

the main reason ness is good are actually passive buffs (not ness getting changed, the game itself ore other charakters getting chainged, which makes ness better in compairison), there are some direct buffs, but the main reason are the passive buffs


new ledgegrab mechanic, ness is harder to gimp (core problem of brawl ness)

more hitstun allowing ness to actually have combo/string potential
-> ness has good damage output (core problem of brawl ness)
-> ness' nair as a combobreaker getting more value (increasing the quality of an already good move)

range getting nerfed overall (core problem of brawl ness)

killthrows getting nerfed overall, ness is now the only character in the game with a good killthrow, excluding smash-monado-shulk, which is only temporary (increasing the value of this strenght)

rage mode, possibly giving ness the most benefit out of every charakter, giving him the ability to kill you at farely low % through your shield and comeback potential (increasing the strenght of his already valueable killthrow again)

airdodge landing lag, increasing the value of your nair/uair, since they got low landing lag giving you the option to land with them or cancel your airdodge with without getting lag and the possibility of hitting your opponent while doing so (giving your uair/nair more value as well as giving you an option that some characters might not get)

chaingrabs getting removed (increasing the value of ness' already good throws in compairison)

NONE of these things are actual changes to ness, then take some direct buffs
grabrelease bug fixed
pkt1 piercing effect at the first few frames (making your recovery even safer than just the ledge machanic change)
uair getting buffed in terms of knockback and hitbox size as well as duration the hitbox stays out

the list of important direct buffs is waaaay smaller then the list of passive buffs, but you need to look at both

 

[Noa.]

I will disagree with one thing. There are more kill throws in this game compared to brawl. Charizard dthrow, sonic uthrow, pit fthrow, palutena bthrow I think, robin bthrow. All kill. Those are all sub 150 or 160 throw kill moves but they can kill. Diddy's dthrow also functions like a kill throw since it sets up for his uair so well. But yeah these all pale in comparison to Ness obviously lol.

 

[Tikao]

yep, forgot diddy, it's not the throw itself,m but you're going ot die
but everything is a killthrow eventually, i wouldn't consider a 150-160% killthrow a good one

 

[PSIBoy]

I will disagree with one thing. There are more kill throws in this game compared to brawl. Charizard dthrow, sonic uthrow, pit fthrow, palutena bthrow I think, robin bthrow. All kill. Those are all sub 150 or 160 throw kill moves but they can kill. Diddy's dthrow also functions like a kill throw since it sets up for his uair so well. But yeah these all pale in comparison to Ness obviously lol.

All these b-throws now KOing... Couldn't they make them different throws rather than just b-throw? But I know that TL KOs around 140% with rage, far interior to Ness with rage effect.

 

[Noa.]

Idk a lot of characters have the option now. All of them worse than Ness. But the developers decided to share the gift.

 

[Earthbound360]

You keep talking about brawl ness. Idk why you keep doing that. If you wanna talk about how good smash 4 ness is, you don't compare him to brawl ness. You compare him to characters in smash 4. You can say this and that about how Ness has been weakened from brawl, but what you don't understand is that almost all brawl characters across the board get nerfed.

Everyone does less damage. Everyone has less range. Everyone has more landing lag compared to brawl. I mean Marth's nair went from 18% tippered/12% untippered to 11% tippered/9% untippered.

7% in brawl for a fair is ****. Like that's awful.

But oop we're not playing brawl. We're playing smash 4. Which has more hitstun, and which has more combos. If you land a rising or falling fair in this game you are guaranteed one or two more fairs.

In this game every time you send your opponent offstage, you can land one to three pk thunders on them. So every time you fsmahs, dsmash, usmash, fitilt, fthrow, uthrow, bthrow, you can tack on extra free damage thanks to how ridiculously easy it is to land pk thunder.

And our fantastic kill moves. While most other high tier characters in this game have trouble killing we get it off easy because of our ridiculously stupid bthrow that scales off rage, and our beautiful uair. We have two great kill options, and a boat load of situational kill options. Most characters are thankful for one solid ko option but we are gifted with two.

Our risk reward ratio is a bit ridiculous. Everytime you land a pk fire or grab, you are guranteed anywhere from 20 to 40 percent damage on your opponent thanks to fair combos and pk thunder juggling.

Ness's recovery is also decent.

Smash 4 Ness has tournament results up the ***. LIke you can go look them up and find them easily. He does well at both large tournaments and small tournaments.

In brawl Ness had pretty awful tournament results. He basically only had Shaky and Fow bringing anything in substantial.

I mean honestly you have to be delusional not to think that Ness is not high tier in smash 4. The ridiculous amount of damage you get for making a read on your opponent cannot be understated.

It annoys me so much when you try to paint brawl ness as a good character. He was kinda **** in brawl honestly.

If you wanna talk about how good or bad smash 4 Ness is, stop comparing him to brawl ness. Brawl ness isn't in this game. We aren't playing brawl. We're playing smash 4. What constitutes good or bad damage for a move is different compared to brawl. What constitutes good or bad range in smash 4 is different than in brawl.

Please. I beg of you. If you wanna talk about smash 4 Ness, then talk about smash 4 characters and smash 4 moves and smash 4 Ness, not ****ing brawl ness.

The original argument was what changes from Brawl made Ness so good. The initial answer was "these moves got buffed, and not much was nerfed." I was mostly addressing that, hence the comparison here.

Don't put words into my mouth. I never said Brawl Ness was great either. I know he was low-mid in that game too. But what i'm getting from your post is that you think Ness is high tier because most Brawl characters were nerfed harder than him. I'm sorry, but that's just an untrue statement. Loads of characters avoided the nerf bat, and a lot were even buffed. Off the top of my head, we've got Bowser, Charizard, Jigglypuff, ZSS, Sheik, Mario, etc. They all just got direct buffs to their moves that helped them out. This is much unlike Ness who had direct moveset nerfs, but still manages to get by somehow. What confuses me is this exact concept, which seems to have been addressed by Tikao in more depth, and I'll be getting to shortly.

It's not unreasonable to believe that Ness could drop on the (currently theoretical) tier list over time. We're 1 month into the Wii U's release. All of these tournaments don't mean much in the long run, and that's what I've been referring to this whole time. An example to compare is Deathstroke from Injustice, who won a lot of tournaments early on because of his keepaway game. Once people figured out how to handle it, he feel from top.
Similarly, I feel like (and this is my opinion, not a statement of fact) Ness just gets figured out. You praise PKF for its comboability, but that's one of the glaring examples of what I'm getting at here. Once people figure out how to get out of it consistently (it's possible), it'll hurt Ness' tournament standing.

the main reason ness is good are actually passive buffs (not ness getting changed, the game itself ore other charakters getting chainged, which makes ness better in compairison), there are some direct buffs, but the main reason are the passive buffs


new ledgegrab mechanic, ness is harder to gimp (core problem of brawl ness)

more hitstun allowing ness to actually have combo/string potential
-> ness has good damage output (core problem of brawl ness)
-> ness' nair as a combobreaker getting more value (increasing the quality of an already good move)

range getting nerfed overall (core problem of brawl ness)

killthrows getting nerfed overall, ness is now the only character in the game with a good killthrow, excluding smash-monado-shulk, which is only temporary (increasing the value of this strenght)

rage mode, possibly giving ness the most benefit out of every charakter, giving him the ability to kill you at farely low % through your shield and comeback potential (increasing the strenght of his already valueable killthrow again)

airdodge landing lag, increasing the value of your nair/uair, since they got low landing lag giving you the option to land with them or cancel your airdodge with without getting lag and the possibility of hitting your opponent while doing so (giving your uair/nair more value as well as giving you an option that some characters might not get)

chaingrabs getting removed (increasing the value of ness' already good throws in compairison)

NONE of these things are actual changes to ness, then take some direct buffs
grabrelease bug fixed
pkt1 piercing effect at the first few frames (making your recovery even safer than just the ledge machanic change)
uair getting buffed in terms of knockback and hitbox size as well as duration the hitbox stays out

the list of important direct buffs is waaaay smaller then the list of passive buffs, but you need to look at both

This post makes a lot more sense to me.
The ledge grab mechanics are certainly better and make me feel safer, barring one thing that pisses me off (that you can't grab the ledge backwards during PKT2 now).
The nair combo breaker is never really anything I considered, but it makes sense.
Kill throws I'm not so sure about, they still exist. They're no where near as good as Ness', but they're there.
The range thing still sorta confuses me. Yes, I know that Marth and MK had their ranges nerfed, but so did Ness.
Rage mode hmm... okay I guess
Landing lag thing makes sense
Chain grabs is actually a very strong argument here that I admittedly missed, so I like that.

With this elaboration, it makes a bit more sense to me now.

 

[Luco]

Haha, Tikao summed up perfectly what I meant about 'taking it in context'.

Something to mention here is, PKF can indeed be SDI'd out of and i've seen it done in tournament sets and yes it frustrates me but at that point I stop considering it as my combo starter and go for safer stuff. The only advantage PKF has on normal stuff is that it does more damage when in fact it's slightly less safe. If the damage isn't being done, go for your other B&B things instead to make up the damage and you'll be fine.

When my tournament sets get uploaded i'd love to show you a set where this exact thing happened. My opponent got out of PKF almost every single time so I started using other stuff and it worked... Except for that last game which i'm not even sure I should've won...

 

[ilysm]

I've got a bit of a strategy question.

So, we know that Ness's combo game is at its best at mid-low to mid percentages. When its too low his d-throw can't net him much more than a fair, and when its too high d-throw launches the enemy too far to follow up. I've been considering; if you're in the range where they're too high to combo, but too low to KO with a b-throw, you'll usually want to f-throw them to set up an edgeguard. But if you're too far from the ledge, mightn't you want to use u-throw? Now, this could be totally crazy, but it seems to me that at higher percents (but not high enough for a b-throw kill) an u-throw might set up an advantageous situation where you can juggle the opponent with PKT until you feel safe killing with an u-air or a mixup. This sounds like it would work especially well on characters who are difficult to conventionally edgeguard with aerials and PKT (hi, Puff) or characters with with a garbage aerial game (hi, Little Mac). Kinda like a bizarre vertical edge-guard, where the stage is the ground, instead of a horizontal one where the stage is...the stage.

So, insane or good strat? I'm just going out on a limb here.

 

[ilysm]

Woops, sorry. Double post.

 

[PSIBoy]

I've got a bit of a strategy question.

So, we know that Ness's combo game is at its best at mid-low to mid percentages. When its too low his d-throw can't net him much more than a fair, and when its too high d-throw launches the enemy too far to follow up. I've been considering; if you're in the range where they're too high to combo, but too low to KO with a b-throw, you'll usually want to f-throw them to set up an edgeguard. But if you're too far from the ledge, mightn't you want to use u-throw? Now, this could be totally crazy, but it seems to me that at higher percents (but not high enough for a b-throw kill) an u-throw might set up an advantageous situation where you can juggle the opponent with PKT until you feel safe killing with an u-air or a mixup. This sounds like it would work especially well on characters who are difficult to conventionally edgeguard with aerials and PKT (hi, Puff) or characters with with a garbage aerial game (hi, Little Mac). Kinda like a bizarre vertical edge-guard, where the stage is the ground, instead of a horizontal one where the stage is...the stage.

So, insane or good strat? I'm just going out on a limb here.

Perhaps. Especially with PKT and u-air juggling. That would be really nice.

 

[Earthbound360]

That's pretty much what I do. I sorta use a flowchart mentality.

Are they low enough to combo? Dthrow with combo.
Are they high enough to KO? Bthrow.
Can you throw them off the edge? F/Bthrow with edguarding.
None of the above? Uthrow with PKT (or regular) juggling.

 

[ilysm]

Rad. I knew there would be a use for u-throw outside of comboing spacies! I've always loved u-throw, with the little pizza toss animation. It just suits Ness and Earthbound's goofy feel so well. I liked it as a combo tool in older games, and it's nice to know it has utility on the Wii U. It might even be a really viable option against Mac on certain flat stages. I'm pretty happy with that.

 

[PKBeam]

is dthrow -> FH Fair -> DJ Fair -> Fair legit?

 

[Noa.]

At most percents yes. But the timing is very very strict. It's difficult to do consistently.

 

[PKBeam]

oh i thought it was only around 20%

 

[Luco]

Roughly between 15%-25% you can get off the Dthrow ---> Fair + Fair + Fair combo. Some characters can DI out of it at any percent though, forcing you to SH Fair instead if you want that combo.

 

[PKBeam]

At most percents yes. But the timing is very very strict. It's difficult to do consistently.

can't you buffer the inputs?

Roughly between 15%-25% you can get off the Dthrow ---> Fair + Fair + Fair combo. Some characters can DI out of it at any percent though, forcing you to SH Fair instead if you want that combo.

oh, i didn't know that... i really need to find good people to play...

 

[Earthbound360]

Dthrow is is tought to work with at times, and character+damage specific.

Some characters can just get out of it for free if they DI correctly. For those who can't it works up to around 40% generally speaking. And the timing is tight too. If you mistime a follow up, the opponent can pretty much avoid all harm with a DJ+airdodge.

 

[Noa.]

I think you might have to buffer it for some characters and percents. It's hard honestly.

 

[Eagleye893]

Rad. I knew there would be a use for u-throw outside of comboing spacies! I've always loved u-throw, with the little pizza toss animation.

...I'm surprised I never saw this before. I'm now calling it Pizza Toss instead of UThrow.

Lots of good discussion on why Ness is good at this point in the game. Enjoying the read.

I can agree on most of the comments EB360 made about moves getting nerfed in transition between games.
DTilt is also worse, though it wasn't really that great in brawl either.
UTilt I can understand where it's bad, but after playing Shulk for a whilewith his terrible horizontal range on his UAir/DAir, I've gotten a bit more used to horizontally restricted moves.
The specifics on the moves I don't really care as much about, but brawl did have a bit more power and range in some areas. I also miss the charging hits on USmash/DSmash.

I can also agree on the mechanical changes of smash4 being a big factor in Ness' success.
Getting gimped was a major issue for Ness in many games, and now it's not nearly as bad because of how the ledge functions. It could become more common as the game progresses for people to improve their offstage edgeguarding and make our lives hard in trying to recover, but that's for the future to tell. I know for a fact that shulk can edgeguard Ness easily. I've done it many times. Jump Manado OP.
Comboing consistently was difficult in brawl, and now Smash4 re-tooled some moves to Ness Combo potential.
The grabs on Ness in Brawl made it infuriating to play against some characters. DDD, ICs, Marth, DK, Falco, and many others had easy combos due to chaingrabs and grab release bull that made it nearly impossible to play Ness against the other character. We couldn't get in close because getting grabbed essentially meant we were dead, and most of Ness' moves besides FAir and PKFire were only effective in close range.
The idea about Shields being OP makes sense to boost the effectiveness of Ness' great grab coverage. Being able to shield more often and safely pushes the usefulness of NAir even further because NAir OoS is amazing.
Landing Lag on Airdodges is one of the huge reasons that I feel Ness is a great character; chasing a character to the ground with PKT gives hits more often, we can utilize our grab to cover those landings, we can NAir and UAir for their somewhat longer lasting hitboxes and low landing lag to capitalize on that extra time advantage more.

Overall there are a lot of reasons why the game itself helps Ness as a character despite everything else pointing to how he shouldn't be great. To see where ANY character will eventually lie on tier lists, it helps to recognize what characters best make use of the minor changes between this smash and the last. I don't know enough about other characters to make those judgements, but I can see that Ness benefits from many of those changes.

The few ways in which the game mechanics hurt us are in rolls being broken.
ROLLS: PK Fire isn't as great at catching rolls because they're generally faster and more invincible. Same thing with DashAttack. Same thing with USmash, especially because the charge hitbox is gone. Those moves were pretty great at covering a roll option in previous games, and now the Ness has to be more precise with any of those options to cover a roll.
Blast Zones being bigger: Of Ness' kill moves, BAir has been the least useful in finishing off a stock for me. Part of it might be that the hitbox is slightly different, but I feel that it doesn't KO nearly as reliably as any of his other moves. BThrow is (very) slightly less potent because of this. FTilt is difficult to KO with now, and I loved it as a quick option to cover dodges and laggy moves.
BOUNCING OFF THE FLOOR: All spike/meteor moves bounce people off the floor. This is great for us because our NAir is super quick and can help to retaliate in a bad situation. However, our already bad DAir is made even more useless because of this; even if we manage to hit someone onstage with that move, our landing lag is long, and at lower percents it's not even worth trying to use it to start a UAir combo. If DAir had some decent auto-cancel ability, maybe I would like it here. But that makes it an entirely dead move.

I can't think of any other general changes between games that might be bad for us, but looking at those it doesn't even seem that bad... except rolls.

 

[Noa.]

For kill moves all you need is uair and bthrow. Together it's so easy to get a kill. 85% of my kills are both of those moves.

Pkt2, Bair, nair, and fsmash make up the rest of my kills.

 

[KanjiGames]

Dan't know if this is useful but it should be possible to setup a jablock with doublejumcancel itemthrow

I made a quick video.

Doublejumpcancel also works with Instantthrow so you cold possibly setup lock combos on grounded chars itemthrow > footstool > doublejumcancel instantthrow could also work didn't test at this point

 

[Earthbound360]

I also want to mention that the landing lag on air dodges has allowed me to land PKT2 and PKF a lot in this game. It's pretty easy to take advantage of, and those are pretty high reward moves lol.

My most frequent kill moves in this game are in order:
1. Bthrow
2. Uair
3. Nair (via edgeguarding)
4. Dsmash (not kidding)

For some reason, I find it harder to kill with bair in this game. I think it might have received some direct nerf to its hitbox, as I noticed you can't really SH and hit someone with it out of the blue anymore. Oddly enough, I used to use ftilt to KO occasionally too, now I like never use it.

Then there's lolwtf kill moves like PKT2, bat, and PK Flash that I randomly get every now and then.

Dan't know if this is useful but it should be possible to setup a jablock with doublejumcancel itemthrow

I made a quick video.

Doublejumpcancel also works with Instantthrow so you cold possibly setup lock combos on grounded chars itemthrow > footstool > doublejumcancel instantthrow could also work didn't test at this point

Ah yes, DJC works in this game like it did in Brawl. PKF and item tosses trigger it. But this looks pretty difficult to set up sadly.

I am however, experimenting with a footstool edgeguard currently. Will report back with results when I get good ones.

 

[Tikao]

hitting the sweetspot of your bair seems way harder in this game

 

[Earthbound360]

Does it have a placement sweetspot? It didn't in the past, hitting anywhere on Ness on the first frame always resulted in a sweetspot.

 

[Tikao]

i feel like the part closer to ness is a sweetspot, but I'm not sure
haven't hit a sweetspotted bair with its full range yet

 

[Luco]

Hm? Bair doesn't seem particularly hard to land for me, maybe it's just me then haha...

I like Bair, at first I was worried about it and then I realised it still has pretty much all its power from Brawl, it's wuite a good move and I often use it to punish people when they're charging an Fsmash for me getting up on the ledge (as in I jump over them and Bair them on my way down).

 

[Noa.]

I didn't like bair too much at first but over time I've come to appreciate it a lot. It's pretty fast and does 15 percent when you sweetspot, which is ridiculous.

Bair is best used to punish an opponent for whiffing an attack or if they do something laggy. Bair is our best aerial at punishing.

 

[Eagleye893]

BAir doesn't hit low enough from a short hop. Nearly every time I use it it whiffs overhead. Makes it restrictive on who you can SH>BAir>Landing NAir.

BAir sweetspot is hitting with the first frame(s?). Same as old games. I'm pretty certain of it.

Maybe I need to get better at using DSmash. It's such a weird move to start using, especially since it wasn't great in any other game.

 

[Earthbound360]

So I just tested it out, bair does not have a placement sweetspot. It's all just about hitting on the first frame.

It's hitbox is significantly nerfed though. You used to be able to bair people with Ness' head, and it had a lot more vertical range too. It also just doesn't feel as good to hit with based on aesthetic (I miss that PSHEWWW sound it used to make )

That being said, I don't think bair is a bad tool. It's still quite strong.

 

[JimmyTheCaterpillar]

Not a Ness player at all... In fact, I'm pretty bad with him.

HOWEVER, The Mother franchise is my favorite franchise of all time, and I'm a fan of just about everyone in the games.
Personally, I think Porky would be a great addition to Smash as a playable character.

I'm a bit upset about the huge lack of music from the games in Smash. So many great songs and themes from Mother 3 and Mother 2. The fact that they still have 'His Highness' Theme' over songs like 'Master Porky's Theme,' and 'Pokey Means Business' completely eludes me.

 

[PKBeam]

I'm very upset that they cut Lucas and Wolf (so far...) and put in characters that are way more closer to clones.

 

[ilysm]

Yeah, Lucas getting cut really disappointed me. Not only did I love the series and the character, but he was so fun to play as--especially his dair, which I liked to call the 'twinkle toes', and his DACUS. I adored MOTHER 3, and I was really sad to see one of my favorite characters, plus the only other rep of my favorite series, get dropped from the roster. At this point, with all of Lucas's specials being Ness's customs, prospects for DLC aren't looking too good. But a guy can hope.

petition for Lucas and Kuma and as many other reps as we can fit to be in the next smash

 

[Luco]

I NEED MY LUCAS BACK! ;_;

Uhhh, sorry, excuse me while I go back to hiding my intense emotions behind a veil of cool, collected Luco. >_>