Social The Suburbs of Onett - Ness Social Thread

[Noa.]

For new players aspiring to get better: http://smashboards.com/threads/the-...traps-an-intro-to-high-level-concepts.380200/

And Diddy probably is the best character at the moment. But I don't think he's as oppressive as MK was in brawl.

 

[Waael]

For new players aspiring to get better: http://smashboards.com/threads/the-...traps-an-intro-to-high-level-concepts.380200/

And Diddy probably is the best character at the moment. But I don't think he's as oppressive as MK was in brawl.

True, I agree with you

 

[PSIBoy]

GUYS. Holy crap Diddy Kong is most likely the best character in this game...

Haven't played a really good one (not that I'm a master competitive monster or anything, 'cause I'm most defiantly not), but I suppose proper use of the bananas would make him a real pain. Shiek and Rosalina on the other hand...

 

[Luco]

Oh you guys are finally realising it :3

If Diddy is the best character in the game and is braindead to play, well big whoop, he's not as bad as MK and we can deal with him I think. My biggest worry from this actually stems from the fact Apex is in a couple of months and there may be a LOT of diddy players, even played by top players who used to main other characters. If Apex comes around with that, the game might not look so good on the outside even though we know as a competitive community that at this point it's still pretty balanced and people are usually able to win regardless of their character's position on that list (when one eventually does come out).

 

[PSIBoy]

Oh you guys are finally realising it :3

If Diddy is the best character in the game and is braindead to play, well big whoop, he's not as bad as MK and we can deal with him I think. My biggest worry from this actually stems from the fact Apex is in a couple of months and there may be a LOT of diddy players, even played by top players who used to main other characters. If Apex comes around with that, the game might not look so good on the outside even though we know as a competitive community that at this point it's still pretty balanced and people are usually able to win regardless of their character's position on that list (when one eventually does come out).

I would think there would mostly be Shiek and Rosalina... Then again, never ever played against a good Diddy. Haven't seen many either. Perhaps I should start scouting out videos of tournaments.

 

[Ako.]

VGBootCamp recently uploaded tournament footage of diddy kong. Some of those players are mew2king and adhd.

 

[Tikao]

diddy is basically on his way of becoming the new mk ... not as bad as mk in brawl, but many players droping their mains for him, but like i said, mk was worse, so there is nothing wrong with everyone playing diddy

 

[PKBeam]

is anyone going to get frame data? cause i might do some rough data myself.
i converted a 59fps video to 60fps and apparently ness' jab is frame 3...

 

[Luco]

Hmm, that's not an awfully bad jab actually, at least I don't think it is. :o

 

[PKBeam]

there is literally a 1/59 chance the fps conversion messed with it and it's off by one frame. Still, yeah it's not a bad jab.

Edit: I bought a 60fps camera app from the App Store. I have a feeling I got ripped off $4 but I guess I'll see tomorrow when I test it...

 

[BluePikmin11]

What makes Ness top tier this time around?
I seen the Community Top Tier list recently and Ness is unusually high for some reason.

 

[PSIBoy]

What makes Ness top tier this time around?
I seen the Community Top Tier list recently and Ness is unusually high for some reason.

Well, now he has combos (most notably d-throw to f-air to f-air to maybe another f-air at low percents), PKT1 projectile spam, better recovery than previously, damage-building moves, and KO moves which kill ridiculously early with rage effect. That's Ness in a brief summary I guess.

 

[neomadgic]

The other thing to add: Crazy priorities on our moves.

 

[PSIBoy]

The other thing to add: Crazy priorities on our moves.

Especially f-air. It's ridiculous to go up against, but really easy to use.

 

[Luco]

Our OoS options are incredibly potent too (especially Nair, that move feels unpunishable haha) and because we have such good combos, kill easily (even easier with rage) and aren't gimped quite as easily; it's been enough to get us tournament results. :o

 

[Eagleye893]

What makes Ness top tier this time around?
I seen the Community Top Tier list recently and Ness is unusually high for some reason.

-- He has legit combo potential. In previous games, he didn't really have any great, consistent combo or move-string potential (Melee was only really FAir and UAir, both of which had short range. Brawl didn't have combos)
-- His grab/dashgrab range hasn't really changed much from Brawl, and his dashgrab was insane there.
-- Kill potential is up now that UAir can kill at super low percents. BThrow is still a big threat, as well as BAir. FAir gives an extra gimping option.
-- PKT is a really good move due to small changes in the game. Slightly less end-lag on hitting enemies, shorter run-time, Airdodges have landing lag. That and PKT doesn't die immediately after you use it, allowing for some crazy combo stuff or you get to recover.
-- PKT2 hitting the wall doesn't make you lose instantly. You get a second chance to recover, and a good ness only needs one decent chance. This allows for you to get off the wall for better positioning or to get closer to the ledge for a better shot at REACHING the ledge, then you can get a good PKT2 attempt.

Ness didn't really get anything worse in this game besides his DAir, which I personally feel isn't as bad as some people are saying. His PK Flash can actually combo if it's uncharged, but that's more a niche case. PK Bat reflects projectiles at a faster speed in this game, which is also another niche case that sometimes improves and sometimes destroys the effectiveness of reflecting a projectile (bouncing stuff sucks, straight shots we destroy).

EDIT: Speaking of OoS options, OoS USmash is actually really good now. It hits both behind and in front and comes out quickly. I haven't tried OoS PKT, just because I doubt it to be any good ever.

 

[Earthbound360]

Idk Eagleye (btw, how long has there onyl been 3 Es in your name!? WTF.), there's actually a lot that got worse for Ness from my views.

Dair, fair, dash attack, PK Flash, Magnet, utilt, usmash, and fsmash all got nerfed in overall usefulness.

 

[Noa.]

Lol I'm at another local. 29 people at this one. I hope I do well.

 

[Luco]

Good luck you guys!!! <3

Also, 'surburbs'?

I think i've noticed that before too hahaha, awww well :3

 

[PSIBoy]

Lol I'm at another local. 29 people at this one. I hope I do well.

Geez, man. You seem to go to tournaments every other day! Wish I could go to one... Anyway, good luck!

 

[Noa.]

So I got third. God damn it one day I want to win one of these tournaments. I lost to a diddy in winner's who got 5th, and in loser's finals I lost to a rosalina/sheik player. He went Rosalina the whole set. We went 3-1 and I played pretty well. I still lost but I felt like it was competitive so that was nice. Rosalina is an annoying matchup but I feel it's fine.

It was a very cheap tournament so I only won 8 dollars lol. Oh well I'm satisfied with my losses and I beat a lot of people. It was fun.

It was a 29 man tournament btw.

@ PSIBoy here in Florida we get a lot of tournaments. Lol

 

[Screk]

I just notice @ Noa. and I are in the same state but I'm in miami.

 

[Noa.]

I'm actually going to the miami tournament on the 13th at VS. Probably anyways. Will I see you there @ Screk ?

 

[Screk]

If I can get a ride yea I have to figure it out

 

[Noa.]

You've been linked to the page on facebook right? I'm sure if you post in there someone would offer. Or even the smashboards thread.

 

[Screk]

Nope I can ask MVD if anything since you know If he can make so can you

 

[Noa.]

https://www.facebook.com/events/664...lter=upcoming&sid_reminder=680066989959413760

There you go. :V

 

[Screk]

Nm my boy TrueBlue got me lol

 

[Noa.]

I have yet to play True Blue in smash 4. Is he playing Sonic? :V

 

[Luco]

Ohhh wow that must be such an awesome experience for you guys, I love meeting people here, I met Nido from the brawl ness boards and it was like =DDDDD

 

[PSIBoy]

Must be nice to travel. And don't feel bad about not getting first: I never tried, and that's worse than getting dead last in most cases. Anyway, good luck in the next tournament you two!

 

[neomadgic]

Nice to see Ness mains doing well at tournaments!

I'm the defending smash 4 champ in MN. Our next tournament is 12/13, where I will defend my title :]

 

[Eagleye893]

Idk Eagleye (btw, how long has there onyl been 3 Es in your name!? WTF.), there's actually a lot that got worse for Ness from my views.

Dair, fair, dash attack, PK Flash, Magnet, utilt, usmash, and fsmash all got nerfed in overall usefulness.

It's always been that way. Everyone just adds the extra "e" in the middle because mind-tricks.

--I agree DAir is much worse than before.
--FAir was pretty good in the last game for different reasons; it had huge range and a smaller amount of landing lag than it does now. FAir was more a defensive option then, but because of the changes to multi-hit moves in this game it became more of an offensive extension because hitting with the move is essentially guaranteed to chain into the final hit of FAir. It lost damage, It lost range slightly, and because it has more landing lag it makes landing with ness slightly harder (without taking into account UAir and NAir out of an Airdodge). In some situations it is betters and in others it is worse.
--Dash-Attack I don't really see much difference. It launches opponents a bit higher on the last hit and doesn't combo into itself very easily. The comboing into itself wasn't ever really consistent in Brawl either. One big dent to this move is Rolls being such a great defensive option, because the sparks don't persist long. It is a slight nerf mainly because of rolls. Otherwise it's slightly better in this game if we hit due to our UAir/FAir/PKT being great at juggling and extending combos.
--PK Flash. I don't see how this is worse. You might need to give me a reason. It could be that because other characters can recover so safely and unpredictably that it's more difficult to land. Otherwise I feel it's better un-charged because the cooldown lag isn't noticeably bigger/smaller, allowing for aerial followups. It's not like this move was a game-changer to begin with though.
--Magnet sucks too. No stall, no movement tech, no real use except against energy projectiles... and the bat reflector is much more useful in most situations.
--Utilt. This is another trade-off type move. The upward hit has more disjoint, but we can't hit as close horizontally. The disjoint has helped me in covering some characters as they tried to reach the ground, but there have also been cases where the horizontal shrinkage has hurt as well. I've been able to combo this into more utilts or NAir/UAir pretty consistently, so I don't feel the changes are super significant. It doesn't kill nearly at all anymore, which might be the biggest reason for its nerf.
--USmash. No charging hit is a pretty big problem. Also, its spin around Ness' body is super slow. Those are obvious nerfs. The fact that it hits behind you at the start and comes out pretty quickly is a slight buff because you can use it out of shield or to catch people dropping to the stage. This move is nerfed, and NAir basically filled the role of useful OoS options, so labeling this as strictly worse makes sense.
--FSmash. The reflecting properties in this game help a reflected projectile to actually hit more often because the speed increases. THAT SAID, FSmash has about the same range as FTilt, Is very hard to reliably tipper, and is outweighed by almost all other options as kill moves. This move is worse as well

A summary of what I said there:

Agree on DAir
FAir is different, though not strictly worse
I don't see a difference in Dash-Attack
PK Flash barely mattered, and I feel it's better uncharged than previous games
Magnet sucks, I agree
Utilt is different, though not strictly worse except in KO potential
USmash is worse
FSmash is worse, though it reflects better
​

Another point to bring up after considering these nerfs:
Why are so many people picking up Ness and placing well with him now?

I see the following answers:
a.) The metagame hasn't developed enough, and the buffs that Ness did receive will not be good enough to sustain himself throughout the course of Smash4.
b.) The buffs he received are big enough to outweigh any potential detriment of what nerfs he received, and those buffs will shape how Ness plays throughout the lifespan of Smash4.
c.) The buffs and nerfs counter-balance themselves and shove Ness into a niche role as a decent character that can win SOME tournaments, but not consistently.

I'm personally holding out for b.). I don't disagree that some of his moves were nerfed, but the difference in mechanics of this game as well as the minor positive changes he received have changed his most beneficial playstyle ever so slightly to give him an advantage for the release time period, and those nerfs haven't had a major impact to that style of play yet.

 

[Earthbound360]

• Dair we agree upon. It's just worse in every possible way
• Fair has lost range, damage, and is a terrible tool for landing now. Honestly, the only thing it does better is combos, and it was already good for combos before (as in stuff like fair, land, grab, dthrow, etc.). It's overall versatility has been downgraded.
• Dash attack lost range, similar to how fair did. Simply put, pink sparkles < gold sparkles in size (and look).
• Regardless of how much it was used, Flash was still nerfed. The hitbox is noticably smaller (and I'm not one of those people who just get fooled by the particle effect), and it travels higher, making it take LONGER to get down and hit someone. In addition to this, it has less horizontal range for some reason.
• Magnet takes longer to absorb things, can no longer air stall, and you can't roll forwards out of it anymore.
• Utilt's loss of horizontal range IMO outweighs anything else it got. You have to be like rubbing shoulders with your opponent for this to hit on the ground.
• Usmash was better when it had a charge hitbox (although I think I still like this move).
• Fsmash has less range and pickier sweetspotting.

I was still planning on making a full analysis on Ness' changes when I have time, somewhat structured like this. I'm still convinced Ness was nerfed more than buffed. Off the top of my head, only PKT, dsmash, and uair were straight up buffed. This is why it perplexes me that Ness is considered better these days other than his bad matchups getting nerfed. But even then I don't think that explains it, because Sheik, Diddy, and Rosalina still exist.

My only explanation is that no one understands Ness yet. He'll get figured out as people learn how to escape PKF, get out of dthrow combos, and figure out more new ways to gimp him. He seems very low-midish in my book, at least after a significant amount of time has passed with the game out.

 

[Noa.]

ITT: People who think brawl Ness is better than Smash 4 Ness. Jesus

 

[Earthbound360]

Lol I'm not just saying this for kicks dude, but look me in the eye and tell me that my analysis on most of those moves is NOT correct. A lot of Ness' individual moves WERE nerfed. Again, this is why it perplexes me that he's considered better.

 

[PSIBoy]

Lol I'm not just saying this for kicks dude, but look me in the eye and tell me that my analysis on most of those moves is NOT correct. A lot of Ness' individual moves WERE nerfed. Again, this is why it perplexes me that he's considered better.

The only arguments I can currently make is his increased combo ability ([PK Fire to] D-throw to f-airx3 at low percents), better recovery, rage, and the fact that b-throw and u-air KO really early compared to other characters. B-air maybe, but it seems harder to land the sweetspot.

 

[Earthbound360]

But those are mostly a result of across the board changes. Everyone has an easier time comboing in this game (and to balance that out, they nefed Ness' fair damage). Bthrow and uair have always been reliable KO moves, and it's not like Ness has the only good KO moves in the game. Bthrow actually kills at later percentages than in Brawl since blastzones are generally farther. Rage effect works for everyone. Basically, everyone has rage, better combos, and good kill moves, not just Ness.

Uair and recovery were undoubtedly buffed though. As was dsmash. Those I'm not contesting.
(One thing that DOES bug me though is that you can't grab the ledge backwards when you use PKT2 now. This REALLY pisses me off when I get shoved under the stage)

 

[Noa.]

You keep talking about brawl ness. Idk why you keep doing that. If you wanna talk about how good smash 4 ness is, you don't compare him to brawl ness. You compare him to characters in smash 4. You can say this and that about how Ness has been weakened from brawl, but what you don't understand is that almost all brawl characters across the board get nerfed.

Everyone does less damage. Everyone has less range. Everyone has more landing lag compared to brawl. I mean Marth's nair went from 18% tippered/12% untippered to 11% tippered/9% untippered.

7% in brawl for a fair is ****. Like that's awful.

But oop we're not playing brawl. We're playing smash 4. Which has more hitstun, and which has more combos. If you land a rising or falling fair in this game you are guaranteed one or two more fairs.

In this game every time you send your opponent offstage, you can land one to three pk thunders on them. So every time you fsmahs, dsmash, usmash, fitilt, fthrow, uthrow, bthrow, you can tack on extra free damage thanks to how ridiculously easy it is to land pk thunder.

And our fantastic kill moves. While most other high tier characters in this game have trouble killing we get it off easy because of our ridiculously stupid bthrow that scales off rage, and our beautiful uair. We have two great kill options, and a boat load of situational kill options. Most characters are thankful for one solid ko option but we are gifted with two.

Our risk reward ratio is a bit ridiculous. Everytime you land a pk fire or grab, you are guranteed anywhere from 20 to 40 percent damage on your opponent thanks to fair combos and pk thunder juggling.

Ness's recovery is also decent.

Smash 4 Ness has tournament results up the ass. LIke you can go look them up and find them easily. He does well at both large tournaments and small tournaments.

In brawl Ness had pretty awful tournament results. He basically only had Shaky and Fow bringing anything in substantial.

I mean honestly you have to be delusional not to think that Ness is not high tier in smash 4. The ridiculous amount of damage you get for making a read on your opponent cannot be understated.

It annoys me so much when you try to paint brawl ness as a good character. He was kinda **** in brawl honestly.

If you wanna talk about how good or bad smash 4 Ness is, stop comparing him to brawl ness. Brawl ness isn't in this game. We aren't playing brawl. We're playing smash 4. What constitutes good or bad damage for a move is different compared to brawl. What constitutes good or bad range in smash 4 is different than in brawl.

Please. I beg of you. If you wanna talk about smash 4 Ness, then talk about smash 4 characters and smash 4 moves and smash 4 Ness, not ****ing brawl ness.

 

[PSIBoy]

But those are mostly a result of across the board changes. Everyone has an easier time comboing in this game (and to balance that out, they nefed Ness' fair damage). Bthrow and uair have always been reliable KO moves, and it's not like Ness has the only good KO moves in the game. Bthrow actually kills at later percentages than in Brawl since blastzones are generally farther. Rage effect works for everyone. Basically, everyone has rage, better combos, and good kill moves, not just Ness.

Uair and recovery were undoubtedly buffed though. As was dsmash. Those I'm not contesting.
(One thing that DOES bug me though is that you can't grab the ledge backwards when you use PKT2 now. This REALLY pisses me off when I get shoved under the stage)

B-throw still kills ridiculously early compared to some of the other KO moves in the game, and while rage may effect everyone, it seems to have more of an effect on those with extreme KO moves. I once KO'ed a Jigglypuff at the edge of the stage while I was around 100% at 80. Granted, Jigglypuff is one of the lightest, if not the lightest, characters in the game, but as Draconoa44 said, we can't compare him to Brawl since there were many changes in the transition.