Social THE Social Thread 2.0

[TheCJBrine]

Is the app version of Among Us safe to play?

Never had any issues on the Steam version, but since the cellphone is another matter entirely, I worry what with all of the damn hackers the game has.

iirc the hackers are probably just people making it so it’s easy for them to win, like maybe going faster than other people and having a shorter kill cooldown than what’s set and stuff (not sure), and maybe getting all the hats etc. for free; I don’t think they can hack into your phone and get your info or anything, if that’s what you mean.

I don’t play it much so I haven’t actually come across a hacker, which is why I’m not sure what they do exactly, but I believe it’s just like hackers in Minecraft; having unfair advantages but they can’t do anything to you or your stuff physically.

 

[Z25]

In regards to the Splatpon thing, it’s probably again the players own stupidity that got them to this situation. Most E-Sports team Managers have a very strict no advertising of anything rule, due to bad publicity or potential of dangerous promotions/ promotions that take attention from the game itself.

So when a third of their team are supporting a movement that Nintendo doesn’t want to be involved in, it’s no shock really.

That doesn’t make them morally right, but it does probably again make Nintendo legally right.

Is the app version of Among Us safe to play?

Never had any issues on the Steam version, but since the cellphone is another matter entirely, I worry what with all of the damn hackers the game has.

You mean like people hacking you?

I’ve played mobile for awhile now with quite a few hours logged in with nothing bad happening. Yes there’s a lot of hackers but there’s millions of lobbies so it’s only like 1 in 100 games you get one usually. And they only ruin the fun rather then risk hurting you.

There’s hacks for **** like killing during votes or cutting votes, etc. but they’ve made good strides to permanently Ban hackers. You can also just leave games if you don’t want to deal with that, or kick that person if host.

Mobile is worth playing though it’s the same experience just in a easier to access way.

 

[Strong Badam]

I feel like people who ignorantly defend Nintendo are terrible.


....but on the flipside, I still have to ask What the hell were the big house TOs thinking with including Slippi in a Nintendo sponsored event. We know how Nintendo acts, did they seriously expect Nintendo to have a change of heart in regards to mods and emulation?


I don't 'like' defending Nintendo, because a lot of their moves as of late have been incredibly scummy, but this entire thing, tbh, feels like a LOT of it falls on the shoulders of The Big House and their foolish belief that Nintendo would be okay with Slippi.

The Big House Online wasn't sponsored by Nintendo; TBH5-9 were. It's a yearly event and event organizers are welcome to re-negotiate their contracts with each partner individually each year. For example, Twitch could sponsor an event one year and not the next; Nintendo could have easily done this. As far as I can tell, TBH did not seek out partnership with Nintendo for this year's event after the in-person version was canceled. Nintendo contacted them after the event had been announced.
Not really sure what TBH's alternatives were since any means of playing SSBM online require emulation (seemed to be Nintendo's issue with it given their statement), Slippi or no Slippi. Like, just host a Smash Ultimate-only tournament? TBH has been running Melee since 2011. I figure they were thinking, "We want to host an online Melee tournament like we have done in-person for the last decade, and this is the only way to do so that players would actually be interested in competing in it."

 

[Shroob]

The Big House Online wasn't sponsored by Nintendo; TBH5-9 were. It's a yearly event and event organizers are welcome to re-negotiate their contracts with each partner individually each year. For example, Twitch could sponsor an event one year and not the next; Nintendo could have easily done this. As far as I can tell, TBH did not seek out partnership with Nintendo for this year's event after the in-person version was canceled. Nintendo contacted them after the event had been announced.
Not really sure what TBH's alternatives were since any means of playing SSBM online require emulation (seemed to be Nintendo's issue with it given their statement), Slippi or no Slippi. Like, just host a Smash Ultimate-only tournament? TBH has been running Melee since 2011. I figure they were thinking, "We want to host an online Melee tournament like we have done in-person for the last decade, and this is the only way to do so that players would actually be interested in competing in it."

I mean, then I'm gonna be honest, but they maybe just... shouldn't have? Especially if they've been on Nintendo's bill in the past?


Like, they've 'been' sponsored by Nintendo in the past. Even if Nintendo wasn't sponsoring this specific event, they had done so in the past, and with their 'weight', it feels like they were holding their past sponsorships over their head, in a sort of "We've helped you guys out before, now you're gonna do what we say" kinda deal. If Nintendo had never sponsored them in the past, to be blunt, I'd honestly think this would have gone over a lot differently.


I don't like defending Nintendo here, but we 'know' how they are, and we've seen this in multiple communities, not just Smash. The fact that they 'had' taken Nintendo's money in the past for sponsorship feels like Nintendo was just waiting for a time to strike, and frankly, even if TBH could take it to court and win, which, I'm sure they could since several Emulation cases have been deemed legal several times in the past, Nintendo probably knows that they can't afford it, so they'd have to simply fold.


I guess this is just what happens when you deal with companies. Expect them to come knocking if you step out of their line, even if they don't have a hand in what you're currently doing. If the Project M rumors going around about Nintendo teaming up with Twitch to kill it are true, they really, REALLY are not interested in keeping their older Smash games relevant.



Regardless, as much as I don't like this scenario, I'd be hard pressed to see this #SaveMelee stuff actually working. Nintendo has really little to no interest in Esports or supporting the scene a whole lot, and even over on the subreddit, the more calm people discussing this ordeal admit that this'll go over about as well as Dexit did for Pokemon, which is to say, not at all. The fact that Nintendo was more than happy to kill an entire Tournament tonight makes me think they're not listening, and they are well aware that no matter how much people complain, that it won't 'do' anything in the end. Yes, killing the tournament may be embarrassing, but have you seen Switch sales? They're on fire lately.


And honestly, I've heard the narrative from a lot of players that "We just want Nintendo to leave us alone" due to this, but as long as something like Slippi is used, that just won't happen. Now that Nintendo is very aware of online Melee, and has apparently gone after a few other tournaments forbidding it from being used, Nintendo's out for blood.

 

[BlondeLombax]

Animal Crossing's snow music is an entirely new level of unadulterated cheer for me.

 

[Will]

I don't 'like' defending Nintendo, because a lot of their moves as of late have been incredibly scummy, but this entire thing, tbh, feels like a LOT of it falls on the shoulders of The Big House and their foolish belief that Nintendo would be okay with Slippi.

I wouldn't call it defending Nintendo for saying TBH was being foolish for thinking that, more just you understand why Nintendo did what they've done. TBH thought doing Slippi was morally the right move for a Melee event, even if it risked a C&D, which is pretty commemorable in my eyes at least. Or maybe it's just because I'm pro-emulation, who truly knows?

But yeah for sure, not expecting them to take action is pretty stupid.

 

[Deleted member]

Your honor

Chrono Tigger:

There was a problem fetching the tweet

 

[Deleted member]

Your honor

Chrono Tigger:

There was a problem fetching the tweet

I know another way I can take that joke but I'm too lazy to draw it

 

[Will]

Your honor

Chrono Tigger:

bottom text

 

[Deleted member]

Ya'll want some wholesome?

 

[Dutch Raikuna]

I swear to god, my laptop is the most unreliable thing in existence. Can't go an hour without disconnecting itself from the Internet now.

Regardless this is going to be a busy week for me, especially tomorrow with doctor's, two zoom calls and having to collect stuff. Also my 1 year Smashboards arrival.

Stuff on Tuesday and Wednesday and then the beautiful double bill of Cyberpunk and The Game Awards. My physical anxiety stuff is all but gone except for my throat and mouth issues so this time, it feels like the end is in sight.

Also watched Zombieland Saga again last night. Yep, it's still of one the funniest anime I have seen.

 

[Deleted member]

Been playing more Fire Emblem Three Houses today.

 

[Hat N' Clogs]

I swear to god, my laptop is the most unreliable thing in existence. Can't go an hour without disconnecting itself from the Internet now.

Regardless this is going to be a busy week for me, especially tomorrow with doctor's, two zoom calls and having to collect stuff. Also my 1 year Smashboards arrival.

Stuff on Tuesday and Wednesday and then the beautiful double bill of Cyberpunk and The Game Awards. My physical anxiety stuff is all but gone except for my throat and mouth issues so this time, it feels like the end is in sight.

Also watched Zombieland Saga again last night. Yep, it's still of one the funniest anime I have seen.

It's encouraging to hear that your health is improving. I hope it keeps improving!

What kind of computer do you have, though?

 

[SnakeFighter64]

Steve sticks out in so many ways in Smash.

But one huge thing that Steve has that the others don't is just the eternal magic. Sonic, Snake, Pac-Man, Ryu, Cloud, King K. Rool, Ridley, Joker, and Banjo-Kazooie were all huge reveals. But now you are used to them in Smash. Like when Joker came out, the magic was heavy. After a little while, I started to get used to Joker in Smash. But Steve... Steve never lost his magic to me. Like I am still in awe that Steve is actually in Smash.

Steve's reveal was definitely the best reveal in all of Ultimate in my opinion.

That’s how I am with Banjo. It’s all just because they’re one of your favorite characters that you never thought would get in. It’s not magic. It’s just your brain.

 

[SnakeFighter64]

I mean, then I'm gonna be honest, but they maybe just... shouldn't have? Especially if they've been on Nintendo's bill in the past?


Like, they've 'been' sponsored by Nintendo in the past. Even if Nintendo wasn't sponsoring this specific event, they had done so in the past, and with their 'weight', it feels like they were holding their past sponsorships over their head, in a sort of "We've helped you guys out before, now you're gonna do what we say" kinda deal. If Nintendo had never sponsored them in the past, to be blunt, I'd honestly think this would have gone over a lot differently.


I don't like defending Nintendo here, but we 'know' how they are, and we've seen this in multiple communities, not just Smash. The fact that they 'had' taken Nintendo's money in the past for sponsorship feels like Nintendo was just waiting for a time to strike, and frankly, even if TBH could take it to court and win, which, I'm sure they could since several Emulation cases have been deemed legal several times in the past, Nintendo probably knows that they can't afford it, so they'd have to simply fold.


I guess this is just what happens when you deal with companies. Expect them to come knocking if you step out of their line, even if they don't have a hand in what you're currently doing. If the Project M rumors going around about Nintendo teaming up with Twitch to kill it are true, they really, REALLY are not interested in keeping their older Smash games relevant.



Regardless, as much as I don't like this scenario, I'd be hard pressed to see this #SaveMelee stuff actually working. Nintendo has really little to no interest in Esports or supporting the scene a whole lot, and even over on the subreddit, the more calm people discussing this ordeal admit that this'll go over about as well as Dexit did for Pokemon, which is to say, not at all. The fact that Nintendo was more than happy to kill an entire Tournament tonight makes me think they're not listening, and they are well aware that no matter how much people complain, that it won't 'do' anything in the end. Yes, killing the tournament may be embarrassing, but have you seen Switch sales? They're on fire lately.


And honestly, I've heard the narrative from a lot of players that "We just want Nintendo to leave us alone" due to this, but as long as something like Slippi is used, that just won't happen. Now that Nintendo is very aware of online Melee, and has apparently gone after a few other tournaments forbidding it from being used, Nintendo's out for blood.

Maybe this means that they’re EVENTUALLY gonna put GameCube on NSO with online co-op (like S/NES). I mean... who really knows.

But yeah. Modding and emulation are illegal because it leads to piracy. Like, most emulators don’t require you to use the actual discs or cartridges, they just require that you have the rom. And most people do not have the ability to extract their own roms. Not to mention that even if it did require the original discs/cartridges, that just means that you don’t have to buy the original console to play the game. It’s just not allowed and I don’t think people really have the right to complain here. It’s not just because it’s friggin Melee, the same thing would have happened if it was friggin Kirby’s Air Ride.

 

[Deleted member]

Roblox games changing names of copyright stuff to avoid Roblox's takedown hammer is both hilarious and frightening at the same time

 

[Deleted member]

Dorothea, Marianne and Claude are still the best and most relatable characters in the entire Game (Claude isn't as relatable as the other two, but he's really cool anyways).

 

[MooMew64]

I mean, then I'm gonna be honest, but they maybe just... shouldn't have? Especially if they've been on Nintendo's bill in the past?


Like, they've 'been' sponsored by Nintendo in the past. Even if Nintendo wasn't sponsoring this specific event, they had done so in the past, and with their 'weight', it feels like they were holding their past sponsorships over their head, in a sort of "We've helped you guys out before, now you're gonna do what we say" kinda deal. If Nintendo had never sponsored them in the past, to be blunt, I'd honestly think this would have gone over a lot differently.


I don't like defending Nintendo here, but we 'know' how they are, and we've seen this in multiple communities, not just Smash. The fact that they 'had' taken Nintendo's money in the past for sponsorship feels like Nintendo was just waiting for a time to strike, and frankly, even if TBH could take it to court and win, which, I'm sure they could since several Emulation cases have been deemed legal several times in the past, Nintendo probably knows that they can't afford it, so they'd have to simply fold.


I guess this is just what happens when you deal with companies. Expect them to come knocking if you step out of their line, even if they don't have a hand in what you're currently doing. If the Project M rumors going around about Nintendo teaming up with Twitch to kill it are true, they really, REALLY are not interested in keeping their older Smash games relevant.



Regardless, as much as I don't like this scenario, I'd be hard pressed to see this #SaveMelee stuff actually working. Nintendo has really little to no interest in Esports or supporting the scene a whole lot, and even over on the subreddit, the more calm people discussing this ordeal admit that this'll go over about as well as Dexit did for Pokemon, which is to say, not at all. The fact that Nintendo was more than happy to kill an entire Tournament tonight makes me think they're not listening, and they are well aware that no matter how much people complain, that it won't 'do' anything in the end. Yes, killing the tournament may be embarrassing, but have you seen Switch sales? They're on fire lately.


And honestly, I've heard the narrative from a lot of players that "We just want Nintendo to leave us alone" due to this, but as long as something like Slippi is used, that just won't happen. Now that Nintendo is very aware of online Melee, and has apparently gone after a few other tournaments forbidding it from being used, Nintendo's out for blood.

I'm a firm believer that if Nintendo fan projects want to survive, they have to be way more discreet about what they're doing. Major tournaments hosting these mods IMO was never a good idea; If you're gonna do something like that, you have to be way more low-key about it and run it as a small community event on Discord or something. Making a name for yourself is the fastest way to get Nintendo after you: Several fan projects still exist because they've remained more low-key, Mario 64 PC port projects being one of them.

Also, I think the usage of Parsec would have faired far better here than Slippi. Would it have been as smooth? No, but legally, Nintendo wouldn't have been able to do anything about it, because Parsec works with orginal hardware and utilizes streaming.

 

[Aurane]

Been playing more Fire Emblem Three Houses today.

I'm sorry to hear that.

 

[Deleted member]

I'm sorry to hear that.

Thanks for the sentiment

 

[DerpingPikachu]

Roblox games changing names of copyright stuff to avoid Roblox's takedown hammer is both hilarious and frightening at the same time

You think that’s bad? I once got banned because I uploaded a decal with writing that was slightly blurry and they assumed it was inappropriate because they couldn’t read it

 

[Aetheri]

A parasite baby and fake parasite baby with friends!

Spoiler

 

[Deleted member]

I just found the best thing ever:

There was a problem fetching the tweet

A parasite baby and fake parasite baby with friends!

That Metroid drawing also kicks ass.

 

[drag0nscythe]

Modding and emulation are not illegal. I am surprised so many people keep saying that. It is not illegal to rip you own discs for personal use. Game genie is not illegal, which leads to mods not being illegal, and emulators are not providing copyrighted code.

Saying something leads to illegal activity is a slippery slope fallacy. Juat because pencils can be used as a weapon does not mean we ban all pencils.

 

[Deleted member]

You think that’s bad? I once got banned because I uploaded a decal with writing that was slightly blurry and they assumed it was inappropriate because they couldn’t read it

I think it's changed a bit over the years but their mod team is still **** lol

 

[Aurane]

Spoiler: My First Christmas Tree

Here it is guys.

Festive mode engaged.

 

[Deleted member]

Modding and emulation are not illegal. I am surprised so many people keep saying that. It is not illegal to rip you own discs for personal use. Game genie is not illegal, which leads to mods not being illegal, and emulators are not providing copyrighted code.

Saying something leads to illegal activity is a slippery slope fallacy. Juat because pencils can be used as a weapon does not mean we ban all pencils.

The act of emulation and modding itself is not inherently illegal. It's using those tools on copyrighted material and distributing it without the express permission of the owner that's the issue, and it's a huge grey area. Like, minecraft mods or terraria mods aren't gonna get taken down randomly because those developers have given permission in one way or another( hell Terraria literally integrated Tmodloader into the game in 1.14, so modding is literally a part of the game now), but then companies like Nintendo over here will almost certainly C@D your ass if you so much as change a single line of code. It's a case by case basis and while a decent chunk of companies don't really mind it, some(like nintendo) are very protective of their toys.

Stuff like ripping the rom off your own CD is also a bit of a grey area because it's extremely hard to prove that you actually did rip it from a CD(let alone prove it in court), and if you distribute it that's borderline illegal.

 

[Mamboo07]

Thanks, I like someone who can hear my nightmares.

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

I had the strangest dream. It started with advertisements on the radio and it was talking about Monster fights and how this company was sponsoring Godzilla. It was some kind of sea company and I then realized that made sense since Godzilla lives in the ocean.

Then apparently when the monsters are not fighting they are in a place like a zoo where you can see them. Godzilla was in an aquarium like thing and I thought about how large the tank must be to hold Godzilla. The only other monster I saw was mothra who wasn't really kept in a pen that could hold it so it looked like it was just sitting there by choice.

There was some kind of corruption going on behind the scenes and the people in charge captured me and some other people and sent us off on an airplane. Mothra then came and rescued us. Not being fully sentient but being controlled by the tiny island girls which we met earlier in the dream.

I don't remember much after that but Mothra was pretty much the main monster after this point. Mothra though had the side effect of it's scales being poisonous so when it shed them in flight it spread poison around. Mothra also had the ability to fly at supersonic speed.

Then the dream went all crazy and each monster represented a different element and each of the people that were captured earlier had access to that element. We just had to rescue the monsters to awaken the power. They were King Caesar, Godzilla, Mothra, Anguirus, and Rodan.

 

[Deleted member]

ah yes my masterpiece

 

[TMNTSSB4]

I have a stick. So...

don’t eat the stick without some flavor

Is it tho? This isn't crunch like with MK11 or Cyberpunk. Hell yesterday we found out about the MonHun movie ****ting on the potential Chinese audience. Or Disney not letting a family have Spider-Man on their child's grave (which while not the largest issue, but feels the most grimy) And honestly, it's not as bad as taking Melee off of that one EVO when it raised a ton of charity money. Still lame though.

Granted I do agree that this Anti-Melee thing and cancelling the Splatoon tourney for Splatoon fans supporting Melee as well is stupid and petty. I don't care how you feel about the Melee community, hell I got my issues with Melee's community. I think the game peaked a while ago and isn't as fun to watch as Marvel 2/3 and so on despite also being decade plus old games.

But c'mon, what are they expecting? For people from all over to fly off into one place and risk to catch the COVID to play locally? You don't sell the game anymore and people would normally play together in-person anyway. They're taking the current issues going on and finding a solution.

Granted I should also say they should have expected issues with having Nintendo act as a sponsor and trying to use an online version of Melee.

idk why this makes me think about that Disne/Sony breakup or WWE firing 300+ employees just because they wanted more money to exceed their quarters

Is the app version of Among Us safe to play?

Never had any issues on the Steam version, but since the cellphone is another matter entirely, I worry what with all of the damn hackers the game has.

ad aside, the mobile version seems good enough to be considered safe

Steve sticks out in so many ways in Smash.

But one huge thing that Steve has that the others don't is just the eternal magic. Sonic, Snake, Pac-Man, Ryu, Cloud, King K. Rool, Ridley, Joker, and Banjo-Kazooie were all huge reveals. But now you are used to them in Smash. Like when Joker came out, the magic was heavy. After a little while, I started to get used to Joker in Smash. But Steve... Steve never lost his magic to me. Like I am still in awe that Steve is actually in Smash.

Steve's reveal was definitely the best reveal in all of Ultimate in my opinion.

I’m pretty sure the magic will expire once Steve has been in the game long enough and the next fighter reveal occurs, tho not in the personal attachment way

as for best Ultimate reveals...either Inklings, Ridley, or both Joker trailers for me I suppose

 

[Megadoomer]

I just beat the rank 3 boss in No More Heroes. At this point, the grind is getting to be a bit much (I have to save up half a million LB$ to reach the rank 2 boss, plus roughly a million on top of that for the final Beam Katana upgrade), but at least I just unlocked a mission that gets me about 150 thousand every time I beat it.

I didn't notice in my previous playthroughs that you don't get a health upgrade after beating the rank 4 boss (at least, it doesn't seem like it), which is a little odd. Still, the game's just as good as I remember it being, and I got No More Heroes 2 on the Switch since I noticed that my account balance covered about half of the cost.

Also, there's only two more days until Doom Eternal comes out on the Switch, which is pretty crazy considering that people were thinking that it could have been cancelled a little over a week ago. I'm not too concerned about reviews; as long as it runs roughly as well as Doom (2016) did on the Switch, that's good enough for me.

 

[KneeOfJustice99]

I think that the announcement at the Game Awards will be that all characters, stages, music and spirits that featured in any way in Melee will be removed from Ultimate

 

[TMNTSSB4]

She-Ra is a good show

 

[Hadokeyblade]

I started playing through Digimon Hackers memory on the Switch, i was so happy when i saw that one of the starters you could use was my boy Tentomon.

This is my team, i have a personal rule in monster catching games where i never ditch the starter because that just feels wrong to me, plus i love Tentomon so of course im keeping him around.
I put Gallantmon NX version in my party because the Guilmon line is my favorite Digimon evolution line of all time, Tentomon being my second favorite.

Steve sticks out in so many ways in Smash.

But one huge thing that Steve has that the others don't is just the eternal magic. Sonic, Snake, Pac-Man, Ryu, Cloud, King K. Rool, Ridley, Joker, and Banjo-Kazooie were all huge reveals. But now you are used to them in Smash. Like when Joker came out, the magic was heavy. After a little while, I started to get used to Joker in Smash. But Steve... Steve never lost his magic to me. Like I am still in awe that Steve is actually in Smash.

Steve's reveal was definitely the best reveal in all of Ultimate in my opinion.

You say that but having the P5 gang and P4 music in Super Smash Brothers still feels magical to me, i think it comes down to whether or not your a fan of the game.

 

[CrusherMania1592]

Steve sticks out in so many ways in Smash.

But one huge thing that Steve has that the others don't is just the eternal magic. Sonic, Snake, Pac-Man, Ryu, Cloud, King K. Rool, Ridley, Joker, and Banjo-Kazooie were all huge reveals. But now you are used to them in Smash. Like when Joker came out, the magic was heavy. After a little while, I started to get used to Joker in Smash. But Steve... Steve never lost his magic to me. Like I am still in awe that Steve is actually in Smash.

Steve's reveal was definitely the best reveal in all of Ultimate in my opinion.

Steve was the worst reveal for me. Totally felt he was undeserving for this title and would've been a big name for Smash 6

Joker, Banjo, K Rool, and Ridley got me hyped the most. Wonder if Crash can up that

 

[SnakeFighter64]

I just beat the rank 3 boss in No More Heroes. At this point, the grind is getting to be a bit much (I have to save up half a million LB$ to reach the rank 2 boss, plus roughly a million on top of that for the final Beam Katana upgrade), but at least I just unlocked a mission that gets me about 150 thousand every time I beat it.

I didn't notice in my previous playthroughs that you don't get a health upgrade after beating the rank 4 boss (at least, it doesn't seem like it), which is a little odd. Still, the game's just as good as I remember it being, and I got No More Heroes 2 on the Switch since I noticed that my account balance covered about half of the cost.

Also, there's only two more days until Doom Eternal comes out on the Switch, which is pretty crazy considering that people were thinking that it could have been cancelled a little over a week ago. I'm not too concerned about reviews; as long as it runs roughly as well as Doom (2016) did on the Switch, that's good enough for me.

Wait... I thought NMH was a hack and slash? What’s all this about leveling up and earning money? It’s not level to level?

 

[Lamperouge]

I'm not terribly invested in Minecraft despite enjoying the game off and on for years, so Steve's appeal wore off pretty quickly for me.

I still think he's a neat addition but I'm just ready for the next character at this point.

 

[Deleted member]

I'm not an opera guy... But if one day Joe Zieja (who voices Claude in Three Houses) decided to start a career with that you can count me in:

 

[Deleted member]

Steve was the worst reveal for me. Totally felt he was undeserving for this title and would've been a big name for Smash 6

I dunno, Steve kinda just felt like an obvious inclusion and the trailer worked really well. I also disagree with the notion that any character is "undeserving" of being in Smash, even if it's something like an anime character. But that's a whole nother can of worms I don't feel like talking further about.