The Smash Tournament Format is Flawed

[Drack]

I don't see how all items on is any more or less fair than all stages on.

Both shift the game away from skill and towards luck no matter how you slice it.

As far as the "smoke ball banana peel mr saturn only" argument goes, what would be the point? How would having these 3 items on be MORE suitable to tournament play then all off? A projectile for those characters without?

But aren't characters without projectiles balanced around that lack of ability?

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

Item spaws are extremely sporadic, and if anything, can cause the faster character in the game to dominate. The character who can access the item the fastest are always going to have the advantage, which would make an even more unbalanced match. Like in all of the other smash bros games, items gives an undeserving advantage to a character who happens to be near the item at any givin time.

Besides, items are boring in my opinion. -_-

 

[PanzerOceania]

I don't see how all items on is any more or less fair than all stages on.

Both shift the game away from skill and towards luck no matter how you slice it.

As far as the "smoke ball banana peel mr saturn only" argument goes, what would be the point? How would having these 3 items on be MORE suitable to tournament play then all off?

first off, I agree, all items or all stages both really add a lot of luck, although some items are just OBNOXIOUS at this.

as far as the 3 item argument? what is the point? more strategies, to change things up, keep pros on their toes at all times. Variety is the spice of life

honestly, you said it yourself, the great thing is that it doesn't drastically effect the game towards luck.

I think dismissing them for no reason is backwards, we should only dismiss stuff if it is game breaking, I don't think those are, which is why I think we should hold "3 item matches" much like we do "team matches"

Like in all of the other smash bros games, items gives an undeserving advantage to a character who happens to be near the item at any givin time.

Besides, items are boring in my opinion. -_-

items spawn randomly, so as long as the item is not game breaking it doesn't favour any one player, it has no presupposed bias and in the sum of all your games you have an equal chance at an item as anyone.

Don't tell my you are going to win or lose over a mr. saturn any more than you would a slip of a finger. Even without items players don't always play the same, every match is unique, that is what make them interesting in the first place. But what is also true is there is always going to be a certain skill level, and the top pros will always be the top pros, they may not win every game, but they will win most, and a banana peel, smoke bomb, or mr saturn isn't going to change that.

as far as you just thinking they are boring, you are basically saying "I don't think we should have any because I don't like them"

I mean c'mon man, if you are bored by them then just ignore them, but don't weigh in like somehow you finding them boring is a reason not to hold matches like that.




Overall I must say I'm rather dismayed at overall responses in this thread

most of the item people are all for total chaos, which isn't competitive at all, while all those opposed to my idea seem to be so just out of pure contempt of the idea, you just don't even want to try it.

there has been such a fracture in the community that it's more important to disagree with the opposition than to actually sit down and think about it. and I not just saying this to the guys that don't want any item matches, there is an equal amount of people advocating all items for no more reason than "the hell of it"

I am open to no items myself, I love those matches, as they are one way to compete.

I think this is another way to compete, but if you guys show me a reason why those 3 items are so god awefully game breaking, then of course I'd abandon the thought immediately.

 

[QNZ_RAFA]

Bumper is banned because if an opponent is off the stage and you throw it to block the ledge then they cannot recovery. Don't say it's strategy to do that. It's really not. Spike ball is retardedly powerful when thrown and set on the ground. Screw attack combos into rest. While there are regular combos into rest, this one is just too easy to do as any time you hit a jigglypuff in the air, she's basically guaranteed a rest.

I have no problem participating in tournaments that dont have items. the majority of the melee tournaments were made this way so whatever. However when sum1 mentions the reason y we wont include items is becuz.....throwing the bumper to the ledge while sum1 is recovering is not STRATEGY, becuz it REALLY ISNT and also mentioning it is just TOO EASY to just do a screw attack into rest makes me wonder about this community. You say including items makes things easier. However you ppl refuse to ban chain grabbing. its not strategy, its B.S. and its like you said thesage, its too EASY! I wouldnt mind keeping items off tournament play, but then BAN broken chain grabs and infinites. The reason why i would like to see if ANY items in tournament is to give a fighting chance to those medium to heavy set characters that get chain grabbed to death by dedede. if you ppl are so quick to say NO to items then say no to b.s. "tactics" like dedede's chaingrab, which to me is on the same level of wobbling.

 

[PanzerOceania]

totally, I have a friend I play with who won't play with me or anyone if they use certain characters, moves, or even strategies because they are cheap and game breaking in his opinion.

In some cases I might agree with him, but it's going a bit overboard.

I could apply that to this here also. It is interesting that infinites and the like aren't banned.

I think people have a certain stigma against items, although I would say that bumpers and screw attacks can be used abusively, so I disagree with you there.

but there ARE items that aren't like that.

we need to look at all these equally. ( moves, combos, strategies, levels, items, etc.)

if a character has a cheap combo, we don't ban the character, just the move, Same with items, if some items suck, we don't ban them all, just the cheap ones.

that is the great thing about being able to select specific items

 

[Pink Reaper]

I have no problem participating in tournaments that dont have items. the majority of the melee tournaments were made this way so whatever. However when sum1 mentions the reason y we wont include items is becuz.....throwing the bumper to the ledge while sum1 is recovering is not STRATEGY, becuz it REALLY ISNT and also mentioning it is just TOO EASY to just do a screw attack into rest makes me wonder about this community. You say including items makes things easier. However you ppl refuse to ban chain grabbing. its not strategy, its B.S. and its like you said thesage, its too EASY! I wouldnt mind keeping items off tournament play, but then BAN broken chain grabs and infinites. The reason why i would like to see if ANY items in tournament is to give a fighting chance to those medium to heavy set characters that get chain grabbed to death by dedede. if you ppl are so quick to say NO to items then say no to b.s. "tactics" like dedede's chaingrab, which to me is on the same level of wobbling.

Chain grabbing isn't broken because it's escapable. More so, it would be impossible to ban unless you ban throws all together.

Wobbling is banned.

 

[schep]

If you wanna play items play online wifi, that's what it's there for... don't worry about the tournaments.

-Y-peace-Y-

 

[PanzerOceania]

I like to play competitively too man, but don't worry, I will, I got a few buds who are pretty intense and will provide plenty of hours of competitive fun, just thought I'd share the idea.

 

[Arcade]

Taking items out of a game that is specifically designed to have items in it is like taking super moves out of street fighter. Sure you can do it, but its not the way its supposed to be played. The object of the tourny is to find out whos the best at Smash, not that best at What I Say Smash Is. We should be playing Sakurai's Smash Bros, not Bare Bones Smash Bros.

There is no "Sakurai's Smash Bros." He obviously designed the game with this many options so that people can play how they want to play. If Smash is "supposed to be played" with items, there would be no choice to turn them off. Let me requote this because it's so amazing:

The object of the tourny is to find out whos the best at Smash, not that best at What I Say Smash Is.

Alright, then. What is Smash? All defaults with all items on medium with all stages? Then, Stock or Time? Well, Time is the default setting, so Sakurai must have intended for us to use it, right?

There IS NO Sakurai's Smash. And even if there was, who cares how he intended the game to be played? There's no law saying we must follow what some gamers on the internet think might have been his intentions.

 

[Spellman]

Look, it's all subjective! You either believe skill and luck coincide or you don't.

Nobody can barge in on the current tournament rules and say they're unfair either because both players enter the match under the same rules and have the option of picking the same character if they so choose, thus ensuring an even match where all have an equal opportunity of winning if both players are equally practiced. There will be a no items tournament, and everybody is going to have to come to accept that, but stop telling them they should change the whole system.

I positive this fresh new start will invite a new default settings tournament which won't ban anything, and that's totally fine. Also fine if there is a modified version where some items and stages are removed, doesn't matter. The game is still coming, give it some time. Put some jazz in your sig or something if you support items, but we don't have to keep getting into these arguments because they just go nowhere.

I am an items supporter and have many solid reasons for why I believe it to be a fair and just system to be ranked by skill on. If I were to play at a tournament, that would be the one that I would seek out. I also know it takes a great deal of skill to play Smash Bros. bare bones style, you can't deny the pressure those guys must be under when there's little hope of aid and a player is forced to do or die.

I came to the realization that you can't change the way people want to play, so you're better off seeking out others who share the same opinion, but this is not the best way to do it, by telling others that their systems are flawed. The topic and intent of the thread should reflect this, and maybe you'll recieve a little less backlash, but personally, I'd stay away from it all together and find a different way to communicate this. I'm working on something right now in regards to it, if I stop being such a laze.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

Let me just ask one question:

Why exactly do you want items in tournaments anyway? Do you feel segregated from the community if they aren't allowed? Or do you lack confidence in your skill or that "competative edge" to win? Do you feel that you don't need to put in effort to achieve a victory? I really can't understand why people want to change the tournament playing format when it worked well for everyone who put in the aformentioned effort. You can't have a well established tournament with a random factor.

 

[Justin Wiles]

Mr. Saturn

Smoke Bomb

Banana Peel

Hmm, personally I wouldn't care to play a "3 item match" with these items because I find them rather boring... you may as well turn them off for all they add to the match. ;p

 

[Pink Reaper]

Item supporters have to realize that even OTHER item supporters won't be willing to put money on the line in an item tourney. There's too many people in this thread who are only pro items in theory, not in practice. The fact that you like items and you think they are fair does not equate to actual fact. Testing has been done with items, it was early on in Melee's life, you can still probably find vids of them. But as for now, if you wan't to prove that item tourneys could work you have to do more than talk about it. You seem so certain that items are the right way to go, then go out and prove it, hold your own item tourney, show us that it works, attract big name players, make it huge. As for now, we have a well established, proven method for Smash tournaments.

 

[Joppi]

If the game was intended to be played with items, then why did Sakurai give us the option to turn them off?

Oh? Maybe it's because there's no set way to play this game. The intended way to play this game is whichever way you have fun with.

 

[SmashBro99]

While I enjoy playing with items on from time to time it DOES add too much randomness when there is money on the line. I do think some should be allowed though, like banana peels.

If the game was intended to be played with items, then why did Sakurai give us the option to turn them off?

Oh? Maybe it's because there's no set way to play this game. The intended way to play this game is whichever way you have fun with.

Also, this.

 

[QNZ_RAFA]

Chain grabbing isn't broken because it's escapable. More so, it would be impossible to ban unless you ban throws all together.

Wobbling is banned.

OMFG!! i run to the same dumba** response evry single time. I cant escape it. KING DEDEDE CAN CHAIN GRAB ANY MEDIUM & HEAVY SET CHARACTER NON STOP, unless there's an edge. BELIEVE ME, u cant break out of it if your a medium to heavy set character. So now becuz the community refuses to acknowledge this grab as "BROKEN" we have to ban perfectly good stages like BRIDGE OF ELDIN and SHADOW MOSES. Sakurai made 30 sum odd stages. They look great and have great music, but already ppl are trying to get rid of them for tournament becuz of 1 characters chain grab, wat kind of b.s. is that?!

Not to mention its only a matter of time b4 sum1 figures out a ledge attack , after they've chain grabbed them off the stage, that'll keep them off the stage and then boom. INFINITE. u spawn, he grabs you, YOUR DEAD. Dont talk about items being cheap if you havent even looked smash w/o items first and what its capable of.

 

[everlasting yayuhzz]

Lmfao. All these ****ing scrubs whining about rules that AREN'T going to get changed for major tournaments. Get over it guys, no one gives a flying **** what you think.

 

[Hellbeing]

It takes skill to properly employ an item

That little quote made me lol so hard i almost fell off my chair.

Competitive = no items... get over it

 

[DeuceBlade]

That little quote made me lol so hard i almost fell off my chair.

Yeah that was rather funny.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

Lmfao. All these ****ing scrubs whining about rules that AREN'T going to get changed for major tournaments. Get over it guys, no one gives a flying **** what you think.

*High Fives*

 

[LaughterIsDeadly]

items wont be used in brawl... and they shouldn't be... you're impressions of items in the smash brothers series is a little askew.

 

[GhostAnime]

somebody just close these rebellion item threads now. theyre getting annoying. it should be a rule.

 

[Mr. M]

Wait wait, Items = Supers? The hell? We don't build up combos or damage or whatever and magically get an item. This isn't Guilty Gear/Street Fighter Alpha Omega 321 blah blah blah Insert Subtitle Here.

Quite frankly, items are a handicap, just like they are in Mario Kart. If you suck, the game gives you a pick me up. In Smash, if you suck, and you pick up a good item, most likely, you'll beable to do some damage that is in your favor to your skilled opponent.

And no, not everyone plays fox, and they took out power shielding, so it'd be hardpressed to reflect that, or even grab it if it was a thrown weapon.



Items tilt the balance on this game off to factors where it becomes as good as a party game. Sure, that's fun with friends or at a party, but try that with money on the line.


Lemme say that again, because you whippersnappers just can't get this idea in your skulls.

Try Smash with all the items on with money on the line.
Try Smash with all the items on with money on the line.
Try Smash with all the items on with money on the line.
Try Smash with all the items on with money on the line.
Try Smash with all the items on with money on the line.
Try Smash with all the items on with money on the line.
Try Smash with all the items on with money on the line.

Are you getting it yet, kids? We want the most balanced fighting field when it comes down to money. Your exploding crates and unfair blue shells arn't welcome here.

No amount of skills can prepare you for a well-timed throw or anything, especially with certain final smashes.


Will you kids just get it out of your head now? :| Hmm? No? Then don't go to tournaments. Quite frankly, we don't need people like you there then, we have enough stress as is.

 

[NES n00b]

Lmfao. All these ****ing scrubs whining about rules that AREN'T going to get changed for major tournaments. Get over it guys, no one gives a flying **** what you think.

I love this.

I still don't understand why people would want items in tournies.

At Ganonguy, I doubt those stages are going to be banned from just ONE move. There are more reasons than that.

 

[MookieRah]

BELIEVE ME, u cant break out of it if your a medium to heavy set character. So now becuz the community refuses to acknowledge this grab as "BROKEN" we have to ban perfectly good stages like BRIDGE OF ELDIN and SHADOW MOSES.

Dude... you can easily get out of a Dedede chain grab... Your options are to spot dodge or roll. It's been proven. Now, if it's a smart Dedede he could "expect" that you will do one or the other and adjust accordingly, but his dthrow is not a broken technique.

Wobbling also isn't broken, and is only banned because a handful of good players cried about it. In order to pull it off the character has to be around 50+% for it to be guaranteed and Nana has to be right next to you when you grab. If you focus on seperating Nana and Popo and be cautious of grabs you can eliminate a lot of possible Wobbles.

People need to stop whining about good strats and instead focus on finding ways around them. Seriously, it's dumb to cry ban on a technique before the game is even out in the states.

 

[Tanzz]

Items on?
WTF?

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

These debates run in circles. Item supporters repeatedly assume that we disable items without a moment's thought, and that is simply not true.

There is nothing more to be said. Someone get out there and host a huge item tournament. I'll return to debate the issue when someone succeeds.

 

[PanzerOceania]

man, I love how everyone loves to jump in a flame war.

" ya ya you are stuuupid and i can't spell! clearly that makes me superior to you!" dumb *****.

this is pointless, I am sick of both sides.

"i want items cuz IT WAS MEANT TO BE THAT WAY"

"well that is the way it is, suck it, and it is boring, and you suck"

all except for buzz and a few others fail at this topic

**** you all, and have a nice day.

 

[Dark Sonic]

^^The internet is funny.

Dude... you can easily get out of a Dedede chain grab... Your options are to spot dodge or roll. It's been proven. Now, if it's a smart Dedede he could "expect" that you will do one or the other and adjust accordingly, but his dthrow is not a broken technique.

Wobbling also isn't broken, and is only banned because a handful of good players cried about it. In order to pull it off the character has to be around 50+% for it to be guaranteed and Nana has to be right next to you when you grab. If you focus on seperating Nana and Popo and be cautious of grabs you can eliminate a lot of possible Wobbles.

People need to stop whining about good strats and instead focus on finding ways around them. Seriously, it's dumb to cry ban on a technique before the game is even out in the states.

This is why Mookie wins.

 

[ShadowLink84]

I stopped reading at super.
Came back and decided to give it a shot then stopped here

"They are meant to be used"

Opinions are opinions. The rest of your argument is just flawed terribly.

^^The internet is funny.



This is why Mookie wins.

Wobbling wasn't banned because only a handful of people complained, there were far more complaints and the fact that they worked on the potential idea.

If you work by mookie's logic It is the same reason Fox's drill shine infinite shouldn't be banned. Iyou're constantly aware of it and work to avoid it you can remove many possible infinites.

It doesn't matter if you can avoid it the fact is that once you get it started your opponent might as well put the controller down and wait for you to KO them since it basically removes any point in playing until they've died and respawned. That completely removes the entire point of the competition since its supposed to be about two players duking it out and using their strategy to win.
Not using something that is completely inescapable once you get caught in it.

 

[ShadowLink84]

missed the edit button earlier *faceplam*

 

[Shadow Nataku]

The response in this thread is plain disheartening due to the large majority of sheer ******* like level of the replies. The thread starter made a perfectly viable observation and statement, yet all the majority of posters here with selective reading just saw.

'Items' + 'Tournament' = I HAVE ANGER PROBLEMS!!!!!!!!!

New game, new format is a completely viable issue. Restricting smash balls is equivilent to restricting a characters moves and options. Also from what I've seen so far most Final Smashes are dodgeable, blockable and so on.

 

[NES n00b]

Wobbling wasn't banned because only a handful of people complained, there were far more complaints and the fact that they worked on the potential idea.

If you work by mookie's logic It is the same reason Fox's drill shine infinite shouldn't be banned. Iyou're constantly aware of it and work to avoid it you can remove many possible infinites.

It doesn't matter if you can avoid it the fact is that once you get it started your opponent might as well put the controller down and wait for you to KO them since it basically removes any point in playing until they've died and respawned. That completely removes the entire point of the competition since its supposed to be about two players duking it out and using their strategy to win.
Not using something that is completely inescapable once you get caught in it.

1st paragraph, so alot of people basically complained. Yup, sounds right.

2nd paragraph, Fox's drill shine infinite is not banned so I don't get it. If you are implying that wall stages were gone because of it, then that wasn't the only reason. (Campiness, limited options, etc)

3rd paragraph, why does it matter if you can't do anything after the grab? It only should matter if it is so easy to do, that the better player can't win no matter what unless they picked ICs or maybe 2 other characters too which is obviously not the case. Chu Dat gets the same placings in tournies with wobbling or not. So does Wobbles.

Edit: Post above, explain how the hell is a random spawning item that appears every so often is equivalent to a whole CHARACTER (of which you will use throughout the entire match and where most of the game is based on, you also get to choose your character from the beginning and you have complete control of him besides mother ****ing tripping) or movesets which you have complete control over the entire game.

 

[psykoplympton]

besides how many pros play item tourneys and put money on it?
unless its for fun right?

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

Another thought popped into my mind today. Too many people view this issue from a philosophical point of view. They support items on grounds of "they are there; they should be used if possible!" What if I just flat out don't want to use items? This is why I push people to host a tournament with items to see how many people show up. No matter how much logic you throw at this discussion, many players simply do not enjoy what items have to offer in competition. This is usually the point where scrubs start shouting "real men use items" and "tournament players lack 'true' skill".

 

[Pink Reaper]

@Buzz: I already said that >.<

 

[MookieRah]

It doesn't matter if you can avoid it the fact is that once you get it started your opponent might as well put the controller down and wait for you to KO them since it basically removes any point in playing until they've died and respawned.

It doesn't matter. Honestly, the IC's had ground combos they could perform that could kill people at the point at which Wobbling is guaranteed. The ONLY reason people cry about this is because it takes so long to do. If it was instantaneous they wouldn't say anything. Seriously... why aren't you complaining about Fox's shine? It kills people at earlier percents and is fairly easy to perform. Oh wait, it's hard to pull off on someone who is good! Wait... it's the same for Wobbling!!! How about that!

If you are a good player and well versed in how to deal with Wobbling... it isn't a big deal. It's just something to be aware of in a match. The fact of the matter is that EVEN WITH WOBBLING, IC's aren't the best character in the game. Tournament matches haven't devolved into Ice Climber's only, nor has it devolved into forcing people to use an IC climber in order to beat the IC's.

 

[Bobz]

how to have items:

1) host an items tourney, yeah, some people will come, test it out

2) play a character that has items: theres a ton of great characters in this game that use some sort of item, i know a kid that plays a diddy that just chucks bananas, combos around picking them up and re-chucking them

I really do think that eventually you will realize that items are kinda lame, but I don't hold it against you if you like them, and it is a new game, maybe a sufficient items based community will develop, it's just gonna take action, not posts on the boards

 

[Dragonboy2k4]

Another thought popped into my mind today. Too many people view this issue from a philosophical point of view. They support items on grounds of "they are there; they should be used if possible!" What if I just flat out don't want to use items? This is why I push people to host a tournament with items to see how many people show up. No matter how much logic you throw at this discussion, many players simply do not enjoy what items have to offer in competition. This is usually the point where beginners start shouting "real men use items" and "tournament players lack 'true' skill".

I agree with this.

But all in out,the main reason tournments dont use items is because of the luck factor that happens from them.For example,in case some of you other guys didnt know yet,item capsules and such STILL blow up on chance in Brawl yet again,which makes me wonder why they havent made an option to stop exploding randomness as they do for everything esle,like the items themseleves? Anyhow,it is something tournment players cannot control therefore,anything thats outta the players control cannot exist.I hate to say it but items are like glitches"techinally" to those tournment types.

Iam sure some sort of menu could of been done during this game's delevopment to shut off the exploding boxes and such,but Sakurai must of opt and thought otherwise.But then again,you can play this game anyway you guys choose to thanks to those options that are currently.

 

[Andromeda]

The big reason you don't play with items is capsules. As long as you have items on, the will occasionalley appear, even if you keep items at low, or limit the number of items to one. And as you well know, thrown capsules have considerably good knockback, not to mention that some of them are explosive. The randomness prevails.