The SBR's Official Position on Metaknight

[The Real Inferno]

Since you talked in absolutes:
Bananas beat every move MK has, 100% of the time.
Actually, they beat every move every character has 100% of the time.
The only exception is if you through early and the other player is capable of catching it, but this is generally not a large problem.

lol reflectors (sorry couldn't help it, I know what you mean)

 

[AlphaZealot]

****nn, good call!

Okay,
Bananas beat every move of MK's 100% of the time.
And 100% of all the other moves in the game that don't reflect ****.

 

[Overswarm]

****nn, good call!

Okay,
Bananas beat every move of MK's 100% of the time.
And 100% of all the other moves in the game that don't reflect ****.

Actually, all of MK's aerials auto-catch them. His down+b also goes through them.

 

[Martselsoep]

****nn, good call!

Okay,
Bananas beat every move of MK's 100% of the time.
And 100% of all the other moves in the game that don't reflect ****.

and what about counters then?

 

[Asdioh]

****nn, good call!

Okay,
Bananas beat every move of MK's 100% of the time.
And 100% of all the other moves in the game that don't reflect ****.

Kirby's Final Cutter, Wolf/Falco/Fox blaster, etc. All of these moves will beat out any melee attack. Samus missiles/charge shots, Toon Link's boomerangs/arrows, etc. can be beat by most jab attacks/tilts.

Projectiles are a different story though...the point that was made was simply stating that given equal range, Meta Knight's ground moves would beat out (insert character here's) ground moves. It may not warrant a ban in itself, but it's pretty friggin ******** if you ask me.

Actually, all of MK's aerials auto-catch them.

What do you mean? He'll catch the banana, regardless of when he started up his aerial, as long as the banana meets him while the aerial is still going on?

 

[AlphaZealot]

Actually, all of MK's aerials auto-catch them. His down+b also goes through them.

There are catch frames for all attacks, the entire duration of the attack is not equal to the entire duration of when you can catch a projectile. For example, I hit MK all the time with nana's after they initiate the N-air because the catch frames for the N-air are relatively early, while the move lasts a decent amount of time (in comparison, with say, the D-air). As a result you can hit MK as they are performing the Nair. Learning to predict incoming attacks (along with having good spacing/timing) as Diddy is a key component to being successful, because it makes the difference between getting a hit or losing control completely of a banana.


TL:DR: Catching a projectile occurs during the start up of the air attack/ground attack. If a projectile overlaps your character after the attack is already out, then the projectile will not be caught.

 

[adumbrodeus]

The criteria in general, I pointed this out in the very beginning. Before any other issue can be discussed, we need to have a concrete ban criteria.

After that, the next step is figuring out whether MK fits that. This PROBABLY would be at least partially an in-depth discussion of MK's match-ups.

And then we have the backroom discussion and vote.

I disagree with this part. If character A is so overpowered that he warrants a ban, and, when banned, character B is so overpowered that he also warrants a ban, why do we go back to the originally unacceptable state of A being allowed? The sequence is unlikely to carry on forever, and if it does, the game in question is, in a sense, maximally imbalanced and should probably be abandoned.

Agreed, with a caveat.

If there is a sufficent number of other characters that can compete in the enviroment that they are included in, then they are not ban-worthy. This amount is wholely dependant on the number of characters in the game in total (for example, pokemon with it's enormous number of characters can justify many more characters as banned).

 

[Omni]

I wish someone would end this discussion. People just look pathetic. Let's just look at the facts:

1.) MK will not be banned.

So instead of discussing why MK should be banned (because nothing will change from discussing it), why don't you guys spend more time developing strategies to beat MK? I swear if you guys spent half the time training or discussing character specific strategies against MK that he wouldn't be half the problem he is now for you guys.

When there's a wall in front of you that you can't get over, you don't stand there whining hoping that it will disappear. You improve yourself and smash through it. Even if the wall were to disappear, you would come out better than your original self.

 

[Overswarm]

Or you'd waste a lot of time and break your hands when you could have just walked around it.

METAPHOR DESTRUCTIONNNNNNNNNNN

 

[BrawlLover]

you can always hit mk if the person is not careful, it's more of a person's control rather than the character's

 

[Omni]

Takin' the easy way out, eh, Overswarm?

"If you can't beat 'em, ban 'em."

 

[da K.I.D.]

they arent discussion whether he should be banned.

they are discussing why any character should be banned, in (hopefully) any game out there

 

[Overswarm]

Takin' the easy way out, eh, Overswarm?

"If you can't beat 'em, ban 'em."

In the most strict sense of the phrase.... yes? If you literally cannot beat something, you remove it from the game.



lawl

I know what you mean though.

I'm still wondering what to do. Since my computer just died and I'm $2k in debt from my new one it'd be nice to win 10 or so tournaments and have it paid off... but at the same time do I REALLY want to play MK? What do I do if I don't play MK? Do I play ROB? Then what do I do against MK?

 

[Mew2King]

what do i do against jiggs in melee? my best melee skill, comboing (and gimping), is nearly useless

no jones OS you complain way too much just play the game. You were doing fine with Rob so just use who you're good with. The reason Chu uses Kirby is because he's good with him.

 

[Asdioh]

So instead of discussing why MK should be banned (because nothing will change from discussing it), why don't you guys spend more time developing strategies to beat MK? I swear if you guys spent half the time training or discussing character specific strategies against MK that he wouldn't be half the problem he is now for you guys.

"Discussing why MK should be banned" and "developing strategies to beat MK" are essentially the same thing, when you think about it.

While looking for reasons to ban, or ways to counter, you will discover one or the other. It seems like nobody has found a solid reason to ban, or a solid way to counter, as of yet, months after the game's release.

It's gotten annoying, to say the least.

I realize, obviously, that the "official decision" has been that Meta Knight shall not be banned. Now we will just have to see if more people will start playing Meta Knight in tournaments, and we'll see if he's really as hard to beat as is claimed.

 

[Omni]

If you can't find ways to beat him, then he should be banned.

Hey, did I mention me and everyone else who is exceptional at this game have found ways to beat him? Maybe I can share some things with you to help you do the same.

Oh wait... you're too busy discussing politics. Nevermind.

 

[BrawlLover]

what do i do against jiggs in melee? my best melee skill, comboing (and gimping), is nearly useless

no jones OS you complain way too much just play the game. You were doing fine with Rob so just use who you're good with. The reason Chu uses Kirby is because he's good with him.

so we should ban jiggs

 

[Overswarm]

what do i do against jiggs in melee? my best melee skill, comboing (and gimping), is nearly useless

no jones OS you complain way too much just play the game. You were doing fine with Rob so just use who you're good with. The reason Chu uses Kirby is because he's good with him.

You do what I do. Pick marth and beat Sliq by throwing random directions and f-smashing when he messes up his DI, and then never playing him in tournament again and having a 1-0 record against him despite his superiority as a Melee player.

 

[The Real Inferno]

The small disagreements with the criteria I posted (though I'm rather surprised in how few of them there were) really support my idea that we should have criteria established through a small committee in order to iron such things out. I also believe that instead of waiting and seeing what happens we -SHOULD- develope ban criteria anyway. That way, we'll have something ready to use. There will be no argument. The data will be there already and we can see if Meta Knight or anyone else fits the criteria, say yes or no and move on. There won't be several months of bull****, and this crap will never happen again.

 

[johnnylaw505]

I slept very well last night.

Haters 0
Lovers 1

Keep drinking that haterade suckas!

 

[Asdioh]

Hey, did I mention me and everyone else who is exceptional at this game have found ways to beat him? Maybe I can share some things with you to help you do the same.

Oh wait... you're too busy discussing politics. Nevermind.

Maybe if I lived in Maryland, and had access to amazing smashers (closest good Smasher to me is a minimum of 40 minutes away, and that's only one) I would have enough practice against offline Meta Knights to figure out such things.

But feel free to share it with me and everyone else, so this unfun discussion can end.

 

[DanGR]

I guess I'm an official MK main now.

Why bother with Olimar and a secondary anymore?

Money, here I come!

 

[fsdfsdgsgdf]

LOL at diddy being a MK counter now after Ninjalink beats M2K. Diddy has always been good, way under rated.

 

[BentoBox]

Diddy is not a MK counter. That word is starting to get thrown around as carelessly as mindgames. -.-"

 

[infomon]

I'm a MK counter.

I can count to over 9000....

 

[Turbo Ether]

In the most strict sense of the phrase.... yes? If you literally cannot beat something, you remove it from the game.



lawl

I know what you mean though.

I'm still wondering what to do. Since my computer just died and I'm $2k in debt from my new one it'd be nice to win 10 or so tournaments and have it paid off... but at the same time do I REALLY want to play MK? What do I do if I don't play MK? Do I play ROB? Then what do I do against MK?

Play Falco or Olimar. Really gay camping characters that do well against MK and Snake. You like camping, right?

 

[fsdfsdgsgdf]

Diddy is not a MK counter. That word is starting to get thrown around as carelessly as mindgames. -.-"

agreed

10 char

 

[Remzi]

Dammit >_>

Hopefully they reconsider if things don't change after a couple of months.

 

[Omni]

Maybe if I lived in Maryland, and had access to amazing smashers (closest good Smasher to me is a minimum of 40 minutes away, and that's only one) I would have enough practice against offline Meta Knights to figure out such things.

But feel free to share it with me and everyone else, so this unfun discussion can end.

Asdioh, assuming you main Kirby:

You have a good match-up against MK. It's funny because Kirby is also a character that doesn't have many weaknesses: he's small, hard to hit, has a quick grab with crazy grab range, one of the best f-smashes in the game, a b-air that goes through almost all of MK's moves, a nice 0% - 35%+ combo, great recovery, and very useful tilts.

Here's what you do.
1.) Perfect the timing for nailing f-smashes or grabs on MK's that air dodge toward the ground from the air. The only thing MK can do against Kirby when he's above him is spaced d-airs; besides that, he's completely vulnerable. When an MK is trying to attack from above, just shield and respond with an up-tilt or a quick b-air.

2.) Once MK's stop trying to attack from above, they'll realize they have a better chance coming at you face to face. However, since MK is always in the air (or can be knocked in the air), it's good for you always position yourself under MK by running under him and trying to stay under him. The reason for this is because when MK -really- wants to land to get his ground game going, the most habitual tactic is to air dodge to the ground. As said before well-timed f-smashes and grabs will get you either an early kill, or a grab that will put MK back into the air to repeat the process.

3.) Speaking of grabs, always f-throw at 0%. At low %'s, do d-throw. If the MK doesn't DI correctly, you CAN combo this into an aerial.

4.) Space your b-airs. It's almost IMPOSSIBLE for a MK to break Kirby's WOP since he can immediately follow up his b-air with an up-tilt. If you space correctly and patiently, most MK's will switch to a style where they come dash in range and shield in order to make you whiff. If you can SEE this play style developing, be a step ahead and go in for a dash grab.

5.) Once they feel uncomfortable with the ground/shield game, MK's will then attempt to space their f-airs either defensively or offensively. If it's defensively, it's a WOP battle, but if its offensively... hooray! Your b-air goes through his f-air each time if you space it correctly.

6.) Edgeguard MK. Again, your b-air is awesome. It goes through his glide attack. If he tries to smarten up and tries to use tornado, have a f-smash prepped because guess what...? F-smash also goes through tornado. This is how you can get so many kills against MK because most of them won't be DI'ing correctly and/or expecting it.

Asidioh, I could go ON and ON and ON about this match-up. The most important thing I can tell you is that you're not losing to MK just because MK is a better character. You're mainly losing to MK because you're not thinking ahead enough steps in the future. Great players find patterns and habits before the end of the first stock. If you get better at this (mindgames), it will make your matches against MK infinitely easier. Guaranteed.

*To Everyone Else*
If I wanted to beat MK's without using MK, I would choose between Snake, Diddy, Olimar, Kirby, and Wario. I would also try to use MK ALOT so I could understand his pros and cons a little better.

 

[Kawaii Poyo]

MK probably doesn't have any counters, BUT. There are plenty of characters with near even match ups against MK. Just cause they aren't 50-50 or an MK counter, doesn't mean MK ***** them. True, that means who isn't playing MK has a slight disadvantage. However, if you really are better than the MK player you are fighting and you're using a character that doesn't get down-right *****/gimped by MK, you should be able to beat an MK main with smart mindgames, adapting and smart counterpicking. I've beaten MKs in tourney before with Kirby. Kirby isn't an MK counter, nor is he even with MK. However he does have a 45-55 match up, which is a slight disadavtange for Kirby true. However 45-55 is near even, which does mean, it comes down to the skill of the smasher, not the character. MK has plenty of near even match-ups, Snake, Kirby, Donkey Kong, Diddy Kong, I THINK Game & Watch. Look, if you want to judge the game solely based on characters and instead of on player skill, then yes, MK players will always win. And yes, alot of the best smashers do play MK. And yes, there are the MK match-ups, look, if you play R.O.B. or King Dedede against a (smart) MK, you have pretty much guarunteed loss. Look, this may sound gay, and it is, but its true. Not every character can play at top competitive levels. If you play Yoshi, Link, Ganon or Falcon against an MK, it is a SURE LOSS. In competitive fighting games, you really do need more than one main (unless of course you main MK or Snake). It comes down to how you play against certain MK players. MK isn't god, if you play MK, it doesn't mean you'll instantly win. No. There are characters that have the match-ups that are good enough to beat MK, if YOU'RE better than the MK player you're facing. I've lost to plenty of characters that are NOT Meta Knight, WITH Meta Knight. Its cause they played smart and were able to adapt to beat me. Listen, I main Kirby, he's not an MK, he does have his bad match-ups, but look, he has no TERRIBLE match-ups (maybe R.O.B., they say Marth ***** Kirby...but Kirby can gimp his recovery easily with bair). Listen, MK does make alot of the roster unplayable, its unfortunate, but look at Melee. Half the characters are low tier and near impossible to play well in tournament. Thats just how fighting games are, you have your playable characters and you have your unplayable characters. Listen, MK pros and cons AREN'T

Pros

God

Cons

None

NO! He has his pros and cons and you need to find a character that you think can deal with his (massively high amount of) pros and take advantage of his cons. The backroom did make the right decision in NOT banning MK.

 

[JackieRabbit5]

yeah this is probably the best decision for now...i don't think a temporary ban would work so better safe than sorry

but anyways it should be up to tournament organizers like u said really

btw what do u mean Kawaii? Yoshi doesn't do that bad against MK...smash brothers is actually more variable then ppl seem to think, u can't just count anyone out like that.

 

[Kowz]

Exciting to see some new INFORMATIVE action on the subject. Hopefully there never will be a need to ban meta knight, and some one else will be on the spot *cough*Olimar*cough*.


Seriously, I hate that little guy...

 

[fsdfsdgsgdf]

Olimar just has a gay playing style.

 

[Overswarm]

Don't use Olimar. Diddy is a fad, and doesn't do exceptionally well against Metaknight. Also, Diddy can't play against like 2/3rds of the cast so if you win a game and they say "I'm taking you to place X" and you pick Diddy and they play another character, you are screwed.

 

[Tero.]

Not banning MK is imo the only right decision.

 

[fsdfsdgsgdf]

Not banning MK is imo the only right decision.

because you main him -_-

 

[Mew2King]

don't listen to overswarm, he's extremely biased and stupid.

You do what I do. Pick marth and beat Sliq by throwing random directions and f-smashing when he messes up his DI, and then never playing him in tournament again and having a 1-0 record against him despite his superiority as a Melee player.

I 4 stocked sliq in tourney earlier this year with Marth in 1 minute 22 seconds on battlefield, marth vs jiggs. But people like King and Mango and Hungrybox beat my Marth like half the time or something. Using him as an example just shows how much you know. Sliq actually recorded the match and then said afterwords (because I ***** him so badly) that only 1 second of it got saved. The next day, in Brawl, my DDD 3 stocked his Jiggs and he recorded it, then again said only 1 second of it got taped.

edit - the last time I played PC's marth with jiggs I got him down to 1 stock (that's actually the only time I ever did that match with him, or fought him with Jiggs as far as I can remember), despite the fact that his marth is much better than my jiggs

 

[Tero.]

because you main him -_-

I basically main all top tiers (in melee and brawl) and would go straight snake in all tournaments if mk would be banned, and belive me i wouldn't be the only one who would do that.

I don't want a discussion about "banning snake" like two months after mk gets banned.

 

[fsdfsdgsgdf]

I basically main all top tiers (in melee and brawl) and would go straight snake in all tournaments if mk would be banned, and belive me i wouldn't be the only one who would do that.

I don't want a discussion about "banning snake" like two months after mk gets banned.

so you're a tier *****? lol

 

[BentoBox]

Also, Diddy can't play against like 2/3rds of the cast[...]

C'mon now OS >_>"