The SBR official stance on Metaknight.

[Fatmanonice]

That basic standard was not made my the SBR. It was made from tournaments.

You said earlier that the SBR used to do things in the past or whatever but I don't really know where you are getting that from. The 2003-2006 SBR was very inactive. The only thing they did was produce a tier list every year and often months would go by before one post was made in the SBR. Brawl was pretty much out by the time we started making rule lists and those rule lists were heavily influenced by the community standard.

So in short, you guys made the standard, not us.

It kind of goes in circle here because who makes the major tournaments and who are the major players that rank in said tournaments? That is to say, if I get last place in a tournament but still go to them on a regular basis, my opinion really won't matter that much when it comes to deciding rules.

If anything, the only thing that the 2006 SBR did that the 2009 SBR doesn't do was claim they had authority and, if you ask me, that's better than providing a grocery list of what they did do better. It's nice that you want to view us as equals but, underneath it all, equality is a myth when you go by sociological and even biological standards. It's like in this conversation, we may have a lot in common in the real world but because we're interacting on this forum and you're a MOD, you're technically better than me and your opinion holds more weight. As I said in another post, even if it's something a dumb as post count, join date, or the color of your name, that's how a "hierarchy" of opinions is formed on web forums in the first place.

@ Spadefox:

That's not what I'm saying at all. I'm saying that there is a hierarchy of opinions that exists on this site and the idea that "everyone's opinions matter here because they play Smash" is garbage.

 

[Kamikaze*]

Hyli Edit.

 

[Red Arremer]

@ Spadefox:

That's not what I'm saying at all. I'm saying that there is a hierarchy of opinions that exists on this site and the idea that "everyone's opinions matter here because they play Smash" is garbage.

You did by saying that your tournament results don't matter/won't be taken into account because you make online tournaments.

Going by that logic: If I compare 100m Running results from different regions, do I have to take Triathlon into account, too?

 

[Hylian]

It kind of goes in circle here because who makes the major tournaments and who are the major players that rank in said tournaments? That is to say, if I get last place in a tournament but still go to them on a regular basis, my opinion really won't matter that much when it comes to deciding rules.

If anything, the only thing that the 2006 SBR did that the 2009 SBR doesn't do was claim they had authority and, if you ask me, that's better than providing a grocery list of what they did do better. It's nice that you want to view us as equals but, underneath it all, equality is a myth when you go by sociological and even biological standards. It's like in this conversation, we may have a lot in common in the real world but because we're interacting on this forum and you're a MOD, you're technically better than me and your opinion holds more weight. As I said in another post, even if it's something a dumb as post count, join date, or the color of your name, that's how a "hierarchy" of opinions is formed on web forums in the first place.

@ Spadefox:

That's not what I'm saying at all. I'm saying that there is a hierarchy of opinions that exists on this site and the idea that "everyone's opinions matter here because they play Smash" is garbage.

The "hierarchy" of opinions is pretty different here considering a lot of people know each other in person because of tournaments and someones opinion can hold more weight based on how active they are in the actual tournament scene. For example I can do much more on this site then Atomsk can, but my opinions about DDD hold almost no weight compared to his.

And yes, generally everywhere in the world certain people are respected more but that really doesn't have much to do with the SBR and Metaknight lol.

I don't know where you are getting a lot of this from and I don't really know who you're directing it at or for what purpose. You are mixing a lot of the things dastrn and I said up lol.

 

[Fatmanonice]

You did by saying that your tournament results don't matter/won't be taken into account because you make online tournaments.

Going by that logic: If I compare 100m Running results from different regions, do I have to take Triathlon into account, too?

That's what I'm saying, they're not taken into account because they don't follow the standard of being offline. That's what I'm arguing, not everyone's opinions matter (including mine) but the SBR's do on these matters.

With the triathlon example, no unless they were used to determine things that came into play in the 100m running. For example, if John Pigwashergerbermeyer does good in certain conditions, could it be determined by looking at his triatholon results how he theorically would do in the 100m run? Does he tend to slow down when there's a lot of humidity? How does he do at certain elevations? Believe it or not, and as the son of a Baseball fanatic, some things can be reasonably drawn out in sports by looking at things like this.

 

[Red Arremer]

That's what I'm saying, they're not taken into account because they don't follow the standard of being offline. That's what I'm arguing, not everyone's opinions matter (including mine) but the SBR's do on these matters.

And WHY do we have to take into account results from tournament standards that are completely different to what we're playing?
There's a reason why rulesets are being created - as Hylian said, the SBR's rulesets base on community standards. We take these things and tell you what we think would create the best competitive environment.

If TOs use this ruleset, good! If not, good too! But saying that WE are at fault because TOs are copypasting our recommended ruleset - something that is already frowned upon in the ruleset itself! - is almost insulting. If you don't want them to copypaste the SBR ruleset, either tell them or host your own tournaments, but pissing at US for what we cannot change isn't right.
We can't do more than saying that the TOs shouldn't just copypaste the ruleset.

 

[Fatmanonice]

Why is that insulting? In fact, why is this whole debating about you guys having authority considered insulting too? That's what I don't get. Why am I the lunatic wearing the tin foil hat because I believe the SBR strongly effects trends in the Smash Community both on and off this site? It's like "how DARE you suggest we have any influence/authority, we're just like everyone else." *quack* Also, I'm pointing out that if everyone's opinions mattered and that the standard was as subjective as you say it is then things like Metaknight banned tournaments would count towards tournament results and, in turn, play a role in the development of the tier list.

 

[Red Arremer]

Are you so dumb or are you just acting like this?
I never said we wouldn't have any influence at all. Noone did, in fact.

We said that we wouldn't be able to enforce TOs to not copypaste what we recommend. That's out of our area, we can't enforce people to do anything, actually.
We said "Do what you want", we said "Don't just copypaste our ruleset but adept it to your liking", we said "Experiment around with different things".

I repeat, are you expecting us to send a Russian brute to every Smash event that shoots every TO that just copypastes the SBR recommended ruleset?

 

[choknater]

??? lol but sbr creates an excellent community standard ruleset so that you can simply copy paste it to have a good tournament ???

they ENCOURAGE creating your own ruleset but do not DISCOURAGE copypasting theirs

 

[da K.I.D.]

im not pissing at anybody, im just stating facts

 

[bobson]

It's nearly impossible to evaluate "standard" Brawl alongside other types of Brawl because the options available allow for so much variance that it's practically like playing another game. Something as simple as what stages are allowed can cause someone like King Dedede to rocket up the tier list, let alone the changes that happen when you take into account time, stocks, mode, items, friendly fire, counterpick rules, etc. etc.

It can be argued that nonstandard types of Brawl should have their own tier lists and character rankings and such, but developing those is the responsibility of the people who play nonstandard, not the people playing what is effectively a different game.

I repeat, are you expecting us to send a Russian brute to every Smash event that shoots every TO that just copypastes the SBR recommended ruleset?

You mean you guys don't do that already??

 

[Red Arremer]

??? lol but sbr creates an excellent community standard ruleset so that you can simply copy paste it to have a good tournament ???

they ENCOURAGE creating your own ruleset but do not DISCOURAGE copypasting theirs

I didn't say discouraging, by no means I meant this, as well. Sorry if that came off as this. lol
I meant that in the ruleset it states:

Notes
* This list is not meant to be copied and pasted, but instead copied and adjusted to fit each tournaments situation (time limits, regional philosophies, etc.).

That means that while we recommend you to use the SBR ruleset as base, you should adept it to your liking.

However, expecting the SBR to enforce TOs to change their rulesets is honestly extremely low. I can't understand how people would even think that.

 

[Fatmanonice]

That's not what's getting through here, you can't deviate too much from the standard or it won't be worth anything overall. You can experiment and nobody's holding a gun to your head to follow it exactly but, as I said, the set standard is what is mostly used when determining many of the major things that come into play for competitive Smash. That's why item tournaments aren't considered "offical". That's why Metaknight banned tournaments aren't even counted. That's why online tournaments aren't allowed to be posted in the tournament result thread. You don't have to be next to someone with a cattle prod at their crotch to influence how they do things. Like I said, you can do whatever you want but that doesn't mean your opinion will matter because of it, at least not here.

 

[Red Arremer]

It's nearly impossible to evaluate "standard" Brawl alongside other types of Brawl because the options available allow for so much variance that it's practically like playing another game. Something as simple as what stages are allowed can cause someone like King Dedede to rocket up the tier list, let alone the changes that happen when you take into account time, stocks, mode, items, friendly fire, counterpick rules, etc. etc.

It can be argued that nonstandard types of Brawl should have their own tier lists and character rankings and such, but developing those is the responsibility of the people who play nonstandard, not the people playing what is effectively a different game.

This is a very good post which I will quote just because it's so good. Read it carefully.

 

[Kewkky]

they ENCOURAGE creating your own ruleset but do not DISCOURAGE copypasting theirs

And that's a good thing, otherwise what the hell's the point of a RECOMMENDED ruleset? It's been recommended by a bunch of people, next to the other ones that aren't recommended by anyone but up to the TO's personal choices, which means it has a bit more influence than any other ruleset because it's already been approved by a bunch of people.

The SBR isn't powerful, but they ARE the authority figure of the Smash community. They are the ones who have shown to surpass normal gamer thought patterns like the ones in this topic, that just disses people out for something they want others to do. Pissing and moaning won't make the SBR change their RECOMMENDATION unless you have some really solid proof that their recommendation was made on fake data or some hidden truth behind what they've been told. Like so many others say, if you want to play differently, you can be everyone's guest and play however you desire. But you cannot manipulate a group of people to change how they've been doing things for a long time just because of a mixup between the words "tyranny" and "influential"... Plus throwing in that they're biased (as said before in the topic) is pointing at "tyranny" rather than "influential" to the community.

If you feel that they aren't doing a good job, then ignore them. But not everyone else agrees with that viewpoint. They have made the game as competitive as it is now thanks to their decisions AS A GROUP OF DIFFERENT PEOPLE WITH DIFFERENT OPINIONS AND THOUGHT PROCESSES, and so far all regular tourney-goers, as well as high-level tourney-goers, enjoy the rules very much. If they rationalized that MK wasn't being a big detriment to the community's health or at least not big enough to warrant his complete removal from competitive gameplay, then I trust their decision. NOT AS A BLIND GAMER, but because they have had time to think about it, capture data, analyze information and decide as a group, while we the community only brought up the discussions when a poll came up BY CHOICE OF THE SBR. I trust their opinions more than the average population's, because they're also notorious for being smart and analytical as well as having a mind for debate, something not everyone in the average population possesses as we can see from kamikaze*'s posts recently. And to add to this paragraph, they voted for the decision AS A GROUP, and THE MAJORITY of them agreed that MK was not a harmful element to the game's life. That's more than 50% of the people who actually voted in the SBR.

 

[choknater]

hm ur right, bobsons post is pretty smart.

the goal of the standard sbr ruleset, however, is to create a fair environment where the most skilled player wins. that's why mk and infinites have been the most controversial subjects.

 

[Fatmanonice]

The "hierarchy" of opinions is pretty different here considering a lot of people know each other in person because of tournaments and someones opinion can hold more weight based on how active they are in the actual tournament scene. For example I can do much more on this site then Atomsk can, but my opinions about DDD hold almost no weight compared to his.

And yes, generally everywhere in the world certain people are respected more but that really doesn't have much to do with the SBR and Metaknight lol.

I don't know where you are getting a lot of this from and I don't really know who you're directing it at or for what purpose. You are mixing a lot of the things dastrn and I said up lol.

It doesn't matter what you think of King Dedede though because you already have your rank and how well you have done in tournaments so nothing can knock you down a peg, so to speak. In a sense, on this forum, you specifically don't really have to know more than someone else to have authority. You could say something unforgivably dumb but you'd still keep your rank. I say something dumb and that's a knee in the crotch to my reputation. It's like why do celebrities and politicians do dumb stuff all the time? Because they can. Things that would ruin anyone else can easily be solved by the fore-mentioned people just by tossing around their money or using the connections they have as resources. That's just how things work both on and offline in any social situation.

For a moment, let's ignore the fact that Metaknight is in the thread title. The reason this is going on is because it seems to be argued that you guys don't really have any authority and that people can do whatever they want and still be considered of any worth to the community when that's not really the case in either situation.

 

[Red Arremer]

So Ankoku's character ranking thread is the complete community?

And you still want us to send Russian brutes to shoot TOs who follow our rulesets?

 

[demonictoonlink]

This thread should be closed now. It got the message across. The decision is done. Don't like it? Play Melee. Better yet, play Metaknight. Prove he's broken. Doesn't matter. No more need for discussion.

 

[choknater]

haha demonictoonlink good job at reading the discussion at hand!!

SBR has authority cuz they are mostly smart guys!

 

[demonictoonlink]

The discussion at hand is off topic. That is why my point was relevant.

 

[Fatmanonice]

So Ankoku's character ranking thread is the complete community?

And you still want us to send Russian brutes to shoot TOs who follow our rulesets?

It's the side of the competitive community who has an impact on the tier list which in turn effects who and what is played in compeitive Smash. In that sense, it's the side of the community that's worth anything when it comes to competitive smash.

What's with you and the Russians? The problem here is that you're kind of looking at the extreme as if I'm accusing the SBR of like acting as a dictatorship. It's like in a democracy, if you don't vote, your opinion doesn't mean Jack. Technically, I could be a college Professor of Politics but my opinion matters about as much as a new born child if I don't vote. It's basically the same way here; if you particpate in tournaments that deviate too far from the standard, your opinion doesn't matter when it comes to deciding the major factors that control competitive Smash.

 

[choknater]

i see what fmoi's getting at.

i usually tend to listen to advice given by the actual pros, rather than frequent/analytical posters. people take the little gems of wisdom of the pros very seriously, like isai's 'don't get hit' or azen's 'use forward smash' and 'don't jump into the ****'

from what i've heard, mango and mew2king also give excellent advice.

i'm referring to melee players cuz that game is so deep and sometimes the littlest piece of advice can take ur game so much farther.

 

[Red Arremer]

It's the side of the competitive community who has an impact on the tier list which in turn effects who and what is played in compeitive Smash. In that sense, it's the side of the community that's worth anything when it comes to competitive smash.

As bobson perfectly explained: that thread maintains the rules we set. If you want a character rankings thread for tournaments with items, then go ahead and make one. If you want a character rankings thread for doubles or for online tournaments or for events where people have to play with their feet, then please, noone holds you back.
But expecting us to do all this is extremely far-fetched. We are creating tierlists and character rankings based on our ruleset, what is so hard to understand that everything that's too far off from that would tint those results with something completely different?
You could say that we should take Melee results into account for the character rankings and tierlist, too, since playing with items or certain stages WILL have an extreme impact changing the competitive environment we've set.

Slight changes like, I dunno, ledgegrab rule or something, or having several stages on counter or neutral or what have you, that's no big deal, but excepting us to tint the results with those of a completely different game is BS.

What's with you and the Russians? The problem here is that you're kind of looking at the extreme as if I'm accusing the SBR of like acting as a dictatorship. It's like in a democracy, if you don't vote, your opinion doesn't mean Jack. Technically, I could be a college Professor of Politics but my opinion matters about as much as a new born child if I don't vote. It's basically the same way here; if you particpate in tournaments that deviate too far from the standard, your opinion doesn't matter when it comes to deciding the major factors that control competitive Smash.

See above.
If you want to create a community, a ruleset and a tournament setting that doesn't follow the SBR rules, you are free to do so. I'm sure you'll find a few people that would do that with you. Noone is forcing you to go to SWF, noone is forcing you to go to tournaments, noone is forcing you to use the SBR ruleset, noone is forcing you to play Brawl competitively.

What is your problem? Why are you saying that if you play a different game, you should have to have a say in our game? If you play soccer and I play tennis, I'm not going to tell you how to play your game, right? So if you play online - and online is vastly different from offline due to several factors - then why should you have a say in offline tournaments?
If you play with items on, why should you have a say in tournaments banning items?
If you play with only your feet, why should you have a say in tournaments where hands are allowed?

 

[Fatmanonice]

>_<' I'm not saying that those people should have any true say, I'm just stating how things ARE. I even called myself worthless, this definately isn't a crusade to make everyone's opinions matter. That's just the truth in matter, you don't have a true voice if you don't follow a the set standard. That's the reality of things. I'm not Upton Sinclair trying to solve society's greatest social problems, I'm just addressing how things are. On this site, people's opinions, including mine, are expendable because I don't (can't) play by the set standard when it comes to competitive Smash.

 

[choknater]

..

this discussion feels sooooo monocles-and-tophat

(2000th post... (LOL))

 

[Red Arremer]

>_<' I'm not saying that those people should have any true say, I'm just stating how things ARE. I even called myself worthless, this definately isn't a crusade to make everyone's opinions matter.

Then what's the point?

 

[choknater]

Both of you are just trying to state your views about opinions and authority within the smash community, and how they affect tournaments and rulesets.

I suppose it does fit the MK topic.

IT JUST FEELS SOOO MONOCLE-AND-TOPHAT!!

 

[Red Arremer]

I honestly thought he was trying to tell us to include other tournament results other than our own ruleset into account in our projects we have based on that ruleset, and trying to tell us we would be able to enforce people to do whatever they wanted.

 

[Fatmanonice]

Then what's the point?

To say that you guys are more than just a bunch of friends who do things and people coincidently enough listen to what you say and act off of it. If anything, I'm basically accusing the SBR of underplaying it's own "power" and debunking the myth that everyone matters here simply because they play Smash. I'm a statistic both here and in real life. My experiences really don't contribute to anything and, all in all, that's how a vast majority of people are. Sounds depressing and people like Socrates killed themselves after coming to such conclusions but, truth be told, it's not that bad. It's a cosmic truth. Equality is a myth and, despite being worthless in the universal sense, our overall worth is determined by other people and how much our thoughts/opinions align with theirs.

 

[choknater]

I suppose realism doesn't coincide with optimism about one's self-worth.

I'd rather live a fantasy I want to be more than a statistic!

 

[demonictoonlink]

lol monocles and tophat.

Also..2000th post? What?
...
smash noob?
I want the title...

 

[Tarmogoyf]

lol monocles and tophat.

Also..2000th post? What?
...
smash noob?
I want the title...

Choknater's postcount started going backwards arount 12,000 (i think)

 

[Fatmanonice]

I suppose realism doesn't coincide with optimism about one's self-worth.

I'd rather live a fantasy I want to be more than a statistic!

Well, I consider myself of worth because of my own standards but, in a universal sense, I'd probably be of more worth being ground up into garden mulch then going through my day to day activities. If anything, it's a backdrop. Everyone decides for themselves if they are worth anything but, in the grand scheme of things, they're not. With this being said, if you let your own "worthlessness" bog you down, that's your fault. Personally, I find it funny how people are so filled with despair when they first come to this conclusion despite it being around them their entire lives. It's not a negative thing but it's often given that connotation. It's like, "you're going die" is often seen in a negative light but, Habba Jeeba Joe, everybody dies (except vampires) and it's a universal truth.

 

[Kewkky]

Well, fmoi, one can be worth nothing if he lives the life according to the general populace's rules of living an "average" life. One can push himself into being a bigger influence and/or gain some actual value in his words. The average population eventually boils down to stereotypes, and anti-stereotypes fit into yet another stereotype: the one that tries to be different according to their creativity. We all start out worth the same, which is nothing... But who's to say a simple road taken early in life, or right words said at the right time can make all the difference? Not everyone lives life as a nobody, there are a few that try their best to step out of the norm and be seen as a "someone", in search of some purpose or identity... Or to be remembered for years to come.

I agree that it isn't easy to step out of the "norm", per sé, put determination and willpower, along with dedication and smarts, can get a person to leave the lows of society and climb the steps of social acceptance and maybe idolization (as we can see with actors:fanboys these days). Reality, in a sociological sense, is defined by what a person makes his surroundings out to be, and how he sizes himself to said surroundings. If you feel that you are a nobody and don't do anything to change that fact, the reality of it all will be that you're gonna end up as a nobody. No drunks get over their alcoholism by drinking, they do so by stepping out from the "norm" of their group, which is drinking and evading help in solving their problems.

And considering yourself of worth is a good thing, of course, it's what sets you apart from the ones who don't think they have what it takes. And yes, in a realistic social universe like our society's, you're a nobody with no special say-in in any relevant situation besides the ones between your friends and family... In the PRESENT. It only takes a few right decisions and sacrifices to reach beyond what is the "norm" in standards, and the decisions are oftentimes easier than they seem the first time they come up.


I dunno what this has to do with the banning of MK, or the SBR hate a few pages back, though.

 

[rED023b]

I feel happy

 

[Fatmanonice]

Well, fmoi, one can be worth nothing if he lives the life according to the general populace's rules of living an "average" life. One can push himself into being a bigger influence and/or gain some actual value in his words. The average population eventually boils down to stereotypes, and anti-stereotypes fit into yet another stereotype: the one that tries to be different according to their creativity. We all start out worth the same, which is nothing... But who's to say a simple road taken early in life, or right words said at the right time can make all the difference? Not everyone lives life as a nobody, there are a few that try their best to step out of the norm and be seen as a "someone", in search of some purpose or identity... Or to be remembered for years to come.

I agree that it isn't easy to step out of the "norm", per sé, put determination and willpower, along with dedication and smarts, can get a person to leave the lows of society and climb the steps of social acceptance and maybe idolization (as we can see with actors:fanboys these days). Reality, in a sociological sense, is defined by what a person makes his surroundings out to be, and how he sizes himself to said surroundings. If you feel that you are a nobody and don't do anything to change that fact, the reality of it all will be that you're gonna end up as a nobody. No drunks get over their alcoholism by drinking, they do so by stepping out from the "norm" of their group, which is drinking and evading help in solving their problems.

And considering yourself of worth is a good thing, of course, it's what sets you apart from the ones who don't think they have what it takes. And yes, in a realistic social universe like our society's, you're a nobody with no special say-in in any relevant situation besides the ones between your friends and family... In the PRESENT. It only takes a few right decisions and sacrifices to reach beyond what is the "norm" in standards, and the decisions are oftentimes easier than they seem the first time they come up.


I dunno what this has to do with the banning of MK, or the SBR hate a few pages back, though.

Who says I hate the SBR? I questioned their authority then they said that they didn't have any true authority then I disagreed which basically got us no where. The History of Smash World Forums, Volume One.

Also, I do see myself having worth... but not my universal standards. There's the big difference. I can tell myself that I am important but, in the cosmic sense, I know I'm not. Have you ever heard the Universe Song from Monty Python or the version the Animaniacs did? It's basically that. Our lives are short in comparison and the impact that we have overall is even more meagre. Like I said, it's not a bad thing and I don't let it bog me down. Basically, I'm important because I say I am and nothing more. After all, I'm the star of my own movie but, in a much grander sense, so is everyone else which makes nulls any opinion I might have of myself. I love myself. Good for me. I hate myself. Who cares? I'm only going to live for probably 80-90 years (at least 10 where I'll be unGodly senile) and the largest number of people I reasonably be able to decently impact will probably not breach the hundreds. I'll die and then I'll be completely forgotten except for a few databases within a hundred years of passing and even then those databases will be buried under all the other stuff that comes around and only be limited to a small (sorry, Italy, I know you love me ). That's life in a nutshell even for a vast majority of celebrities. It takes a lot to become significant (by human standards) and even more to become that for a extended area for an extended period of time.

 

[da K.I.D.]

thats why theres probably less than 100 people, that any random person can name off the top of their head that were born before 1800. because teh vast majority of people live their lives and die without making much of any impact in the world.

Its not a bad thing, nor is it really negative, its just a fact

 

[ShadowLink84]

fatman wasn't socrates forced to drink poison as punishment?
Certainly he chose to stay rather than run away 9in order to make a symbol of himself) but he didnt exactly drink it cause of his conclusions.

unless I am mistaking Socrates for another individual.

 

[swordgard]

Right now, is the SBR accepting new members? And if so, is it invite only or can we still give in the application through the user CP and theyl read it?