The SBR official stance on Metaknight.

[choknater]

The Smash Back Room has been discussing Metaknight since the game came out. We have gone through several votes, many topics, many debates, and we are done. The SBR will not be voting on or touching this issue at all until at least this time next year, if ever again. We are well aware many people hold very strong opinions on this subject, but let's just say Metaknight has overstayed his welcome.

Basically they said the debate has been gone over for long enough lol. Is that not good enough reason for u?

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

Basically they said the debate has been gone over for long enough lol. Is that not good enough reason for u?

Not really. It's too early to call this the final one. I understand it if they would've said that this will be the last one for a while, but saying something as definite as what they did seems a bit extreme. Whatever, I have no say in the matter whatsoever, neither do you or any of the other thousands who voted.

 

[Kewkky]

Hylian didn't say they'll never talk about the issue again, he said that at least until the same date as when decided MK wasn't banned, the matter won't be put up for discussion again.

Not like at very high levels of play MK is a huge threat, it's most at mid and low levels...

 

[ShadowLink84]

All that matters is high level play.

 

[Ninja_Sheep]

'Hardcore' gamers (in thise case the backroom guys) tend to have a very strange mindset.
"Yeah, kay, we agree, MK has an advantage over the rest of the cast, but stop crying, it's not that big of a deal, l2p."

They should rather ask: Would the game be more enjoyable with or without MK?

True/false?

 

[Red Arremer]

"Enjoyable" is a subjective term and should not influence a decision.

I, for once, find it enjoyable to play against Meta Knight-players.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

All that matters is high level play.

...

I hate this mindset.

"Enjoyable" is a subjective term and should not influence a decision.

I, for once, find it enjoyable to play against Meta Knight-players.

What spadefox said

 

[choknater]

...

I hate this mindset.

He's talking about when it comes to rulesets and stuff. I don't see why lower than high level play would matter? Rulesets are created in order to achieve an environment of the fairest play where the most skilled player wins. The current ruleset does that for the most part.

 

[ShadowLink84]

...

I hate this mindset.

I am sorry you feel that way but that is how things go.
The rulesets exist, as Choknater said, so that the most skilled player will win. If we were to make rules based on lower levels of play, can you imagine ow many things would be banned? or the things that would not be banned?

Hate it as much as yo want but you cannot deny that it has provided the most fair rulesets.

 

[_Phloat_]

Furthermore, that mindset is important because the solution for every other level is "get better". While not exactly eloquent, and not many people want to hear it, as long as that is a possible solution then rules helping lower lever players aren't needed.

 

[pizzapie7]

All that matters is high level play.

I suck and I can agree with this.

 

[adumbrodeus]

...

I hate this mindset.

Let me explain what he said way to bluntly in a way that's both useful and doesn't make the person who said it seem like an ***hole.


The thing is, even if you're not a high-level player, you can the technical aspects of high-level play by studying the match-up and becoming good at it.

Sure it takes time and effort, but if it's it's something that can be overcome like that, is it right to base a ban on it?

 

['V']

All that matters is high level play.

It's true... It really is.

You just gotta be awesome.

 

[Matador]

All that matters is high level play.

C/SFT

Once you're good enough to be considered a high level player, then the game changes for you. Subsequently, your opinion on MK could very well change to match that of SBR's majority.

 

[Atlus8]

Don't remove Mk! Imagine MvC2 without the bada$$!

 

[Donkey Bong]

Nah I can make it happen.

Dojo: so good, he makes sexy bad.

 

[Delvro]

I am sorry you feel that way but that is how things go.
The rulesets exist, as Choknater said, so that the most skilled player will win.

Not entirely true. The rulesets exist so that the most knowledgeable AND skilled character will win. The counterpick system (both characters and stages) ensure that a lesser skilled player can still win if he has good knowledge of matchups and stage advantages.

That is one of the reasons why the whole metaknight debate became such a huge deal. Is it placing too much importance on character selection and matchups, as opposed to "skill"? Of course, other things came into play, but this was one of them. The SBR has decided that Metaknight's existence in tournament play is not detrimental to tournament play (they are supposed to consider a range of skill levels, from low competitive to elite).

If our only goal was skill, we'd only allow ditto matches (not really) =P

 

[choknater]

Not entirely true. The rulesets exist so that the most knowledgeable AND skilled character will win. The counterpick system (both characters and stages) ensure that a lesser skilled player can still win if he has good knowledge of matchups and stage advantages.

That's not true. Why would any tourny rule want to allow a lesser skilled player to win? If we wanted lesser skilled players to win, we would turn on items.

Counter picking is a balance thing. It allows the possibility of playing out different favorable matchups and stages within a single set, so as to allow the more knowledgeable and skilled player to win. That's why in SFIII 3rd Strike, you are allowed to change your super art in a set if it's more favorable in a matchup

 

[BIGM1994]

mk is not winning any major tournament anymore, why should he be banned when snake has an advantage and hes even with 3 characters. lucario, wario and diddy. this is true idc what people say. Only bad matchup for snake is olimar...maybe

 

[Spelt]

snake is even with mk?
and rob also has an advantage with snake too...
mk is still better.

 

[BIGM1994]

snake is even with mk?
and rob also has an advantage with snake too...
mk is still better.

naw rob doesnt have an advantage on snake

 

[Spelt]

sure he doesn't :|
the snake boards only say he does..............

 

[etecoon]

snake boards haven't said that in forever lol, most recently we voted and majority was 55:45 snake

 

['V']

I never thought that Snake was at a disadvantage against R.O.B.

I say it's 55:45 Snake. He might have to play differently, but he can still ****.

 

[pizzapie7]

mk is not winning any major tournament anymore, why should he be banned when snake has an advantage and hes even with 3 characters. lucario, wario and diddy. this is true idc what people say. Only bad matchup for snake is olimar...maybe

But I thought Snake and Diddy were 50:50 and Lucario and Wario were 55:45 MK.

Maybe I just need to research matchups again

 

[Yoshi Kirishima]

mk is not winning any major tournament anymore, why should he be banned when snake has an advantage and hes even with 3 characters. lucario, wario and diddy. this is true idc what people say. Only bad matchup for snake is olimar...maybe

Uh, hello? MK's are still dominating the tourny scene, idk where you've been XD. Ok I respect you opinion that lucario wario and diddy are even, but I don't agree at all.

Only bad matchup for Snake is olimar? Definitely not... DDD does pretty well against snake.


Anyways, I agree, it's a good idea to put aside the issue of whether or not to ban MK, for about a year. There's no obvious majority opinion of the Brawlers, so may be in a year things will change.

 

[Kewkky]

Uh, hello? MK's are still dominating the tourny scene, idk where you've been XD. Ok I respect you opinion that lucario wario and diddy are even, but I don't agree at all.

No, MK isn't dominating. The fact that there was a huge influx of MK mainers at one time helped the community learn the MU enough to not let any half-decent MK mainer take any good spots in tourney results. The only MKs ranking right now, are the same ranked players who have proven to outsmart their opponents. When was the last time you saw random MKs placing high at tourneys? The only ones placing are the ones who practice with their characters...

And lots of people spout random even MUs vs MK, when in actuality MK does better than they will ever do if the player knows the MU as well.

 

[Spelt]

The only ones placing are the ones who practice with their characters...

as it should be

 

[xxmaliciousxx]

Metaknight has no weak matchups, despite the fact that he has many strong matchups.
There is no reason that he should not be forbidden.

 

[swordgard]

Metaknight has no weak matchups, despite the fact that he has many strong matchups.
There is no reason that he should not be forbidden.

Snake/marth tend to have many more stronger matchup at the cost of 1-2 bad matchups.



Lets not go into the fact that overcentralization is the only reason to ban a char.

 

[DanGR]

No, MK isn't dominating. The fact that there was a huge influx of MK mainers at one time helped the community learn the MU enough to not let any half-decent MK mainer take any good spots in tourney results. The only MKs ranking right now, are the same ranked players who have proven to outsmart their opponents. When was the last time you saw random MKs placing high at tourneys? The only ones placing are the ones who practice with their characters...

And lots of people spout random even MUs vs MK, when in actuality MK does better than they will ever do if the player knows the MU as well.

I placed 3rd at my last tournament (48 entrants) using MK when I came across any MKs. (I ended up having to fight all of the MK mains that went to the tourney, so... you do the math. <_<) I've been using him for a total of about 2 weeks, so you could easily call me a random.

It's really easy to use him well once you get down his spacing and can punish reactions to all his frame traps. *shrugs*

There's that and camping, (I mean DMG camping) which I haven't yet built up the nerve to do yet.

 

[Kewkky]

Lets not go into the fact that overcentralization is the only reason to ban a char.

We can ban a character whenever we desire, by whatever reasons we have. The majority of smart people just choose to ban ONLY if overcentralization occurs, making it seem like it's the only situation in which to ban a character, but it's not.

It's the 'smartest', but not the 'only' reason.

 

[xxmaliciousxx]

Snake/marth tend to have many more stronger matchup at the cost of 1-2 bad matchups.

Whether the matchup is 55-60 or it's 70-80 in one's favor, it's still in their favor. I can use a character such as King Dedede to counter Marth/Snake. But MetaKnight has no counter-characters, destroying a system of balance.

 

[Red Arremer]

Why is 50:50 not enough for counterpicking?

I asked this at least 500 times but never got a satisfying answer.

 

[Flayl]

Whether the matchup is 55-60 or it's 70-80 in one's favor, it's still in their favor. I can use a character such as King Dedede to counter Marth/Snake. But MetaKnight has no counter-characters, destroying a system of balance.

Is Brawl your first fighting game?

 

[xxmaliciousxx]

Is Brawl your first fighting game?

If you exclude SoulCalibur, Streetfighter, Tekken, DragonballZ, Mortal Combat, Dead or Alive, MVC, and the other super smash bros. games, yes.

 

[Spelt]

if my main had a 40:60 matchup against someone and my side is 50:50 i'd use my side :/

If you exclude SoulCalibur, Streetfighter, Tekken, DragonballZ, Mortal Combat, Dead or Alive, MVC, and the other super smash bros. games, yes.

lol you played dragonball z games competitively?
3d fighters suck

 

[Flayl]

If you exclude SoulCalibur, Streetfighter, Tekken, DragonballZ, Mortal Combat, Dead or Alive, MVC, and the other super smash bros. games, yes.

Then it puzzles me why you're complaining about a top character having even matchups at worst. This isn't a first.

 

[Spelt]

how do you know he didn't complain about the other games?

 

[Chuee]

But MetaKnight has no counter-characters, destroying a system of balance.

The counterpick system does necessarily mean that you have to have the advantage. The system often doesn't even exist in higher levels of play.