The San Antonio Brawl Thread: Steakfest 3, 7/31, see 1st post, new annoucements!

[Mr.C]

My fav match of you so far.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kh_ba4nkmqI

Can already tell how many options will open up from Brawl+. Platforms will actually be useful again. woot.

 

[Hylian]

Check out this one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oKSZGas3h7o

FALCONNNN


I only lost due to stupidity LOL.

 

[gunterrsmash01]

but, S-canceling makes snake ridiculously broken.

 

[Hylian]

but, S-canceling makes snake ridiculously broken.

How so? Have you played it and tried it out?

Snakes air game still sucks.

 

[Espy Rose]

Check out this one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oKSZGas3h7o

FALCONNNN


I only lost due to stupidity LOL.

No johns...

 

[gunterrsmash01]

Yeah i tried snake with s-cancel. nair nair nair nair into anything,(doesnt make him THAT much more broken, just helps him a little) though, i think s-cancel would be a better option then L canel.

 

[Mr.C]

Check out this one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oKSZGas3h7o

FALCONNNN


I only lost due to stupidity LOL.

Yeah I seen it lol. owned.

 

[K1T3]

- The Melee Lcancel code, not shield canceling. If other characters can actually compete with their aerials there is no reason to ban MK.

- Melee's air dodge system, and the code allowing you to use your shield during your dash animation.

- Same rules that normal Brawl tourneys are using atm regarding their neutral stages, counter picks and banned stages etc. Same thing goes with stock and time limit I'd imagine.

Also, if you are changing the gravity you need to make sure characters aren't living any longer than they should be when getting hit with vertical kills etc. I've never played it so I can't really say anything about that. It would also suck if character get cheesy infinite's due to the gravity but then again it couldn't be any worse than what Brawl is right now lol.

I can't say whether MK is fine or not without a lot of testing, so for the purpose of a first tourney I would say he shouldn't be banned...
I would also say L over S canceling and Melee's air dodge.

I don't know if there even is a code for being able to shield during your initial dash animation but I do agree it would open up many offensive options. I don't even know if anyone else has even thought of making a code for it yet though.

Also there are pros and cons to gravity/dmg increase and I don't know for sure whether it is better to have them or not nor do I want to rant about them right now. I will say that I would propose that if gravity is increased dmg should as well to offset some of the effects of gravity and to speed things up a little more. I do not think they will ever truely go into effect in the smash community though as they will probably never see proper testing to determine their viability.
(Verticle kills are fine, I have seen no added cheesey infinites either, only a way to subdue falco's chainthrow a bit)

I also wanted your opinion on if a bug free hitstun code should be included or not?

Also as this is relavent to you, you said you found brawl tournies dull and understandably so, but I should mention that even with Lcancel/wavedash matches still take forever and people still easily live to over 200. I believe that the more options and possibilites we give people within the game, as it develops the game should begin to move at a quicker pace.

I'm not Mr.C, but I have tested brawl+ a ****ton lol.

S-canceling
No tripping
Infinite replay time
Melee Airdodge
SBR Rules

MK doesn't need to be banned.

I have yet to test the new hitstun code, so I think the above are all I can approve of. I will test the hitsun soon. LeeHarris says it's amazing.

I simply asked MrC as he is one of the few people I've seen to be able to look at things logically and objectively and know he has good reason behind his answer.

I'll agree yes to no tripping/infinite replay time/melee airdodge, and I'm fine with the SBR ruleset but not the stageset (they got some **** for counters that should be banned). Also I definately think with L canceling added Lylat should be a neutral stage.

Though not balanced well the characters moveset's were balanced with a certain amount of lag for each move for a reason. L canceling is fine as it only halves the lag of any move (there is still lag to be skillfully punished on really slow powerful moves) with a well timed skillful button press. S canceling need not be either well timed or skillful and gives even the most powerful of moves 0 lag as it would the weakest of moves that already had almost no lag, this completely offsets the balance of moves.

For hitstun my position is the same as it is for increasing gravity/dmg, it needs lots of testing before it can be said whether it is more good than bad for the game. I don't believe that any of them would have such a negative impact that it would be bad to include them and a tournament scene is the perfect place to get proper testing, but I don't see them as needing to be there either.

 

[fsdfsdgsgdf]

MK in brawl is like black people in the nba

 

[GreyFox86]

All i want to say to add to all of Hylian's vids is this 'IKE IS THE MAN' that is all

Well that and the fact that it's still Brawl. I seriously might consider picking this up and one more thing....

Infinite replay time

That alone just makes C. Fal happy

 

[Mr.C]

Also as this is relavent to you, you said you found brawl tournies dull and understandably so, but I should mention that even with Lcancel/wavedash matches still take forever and people still easily live to over 200. I believe that the more options and possibilites we give people within the game, as it develops the game should begin to move at a quicker pace.

I'm not really concerned about how long matches take, vise-versa. I think Brawl is dull because you have zero options to alter the game play mechanics. There is no depth in what you do in Brawl, you pick a character and use his moveset, if that characters moveset is bad in Brawl that generally means that character is going to be bad. I'm sure people will call me out on this and say you still have options when playing Brawl and the better player will always win. Of course that's true, when playing against other people whomever makes the better decisions will more than not be the victor. The point is the things that define how well you do in Brawl are so bland. If I wanted to play MK1 I'd go ---------------> that way. lol

It's very similar to Holy Paladin's in TBC WoWArena, they have limitations within their healing spells. There is a skill cap that Paladin players reach no matter how good YOU actually are. Meaning no matter how good the player actually is, how well he plays, how good his positioning was, how well he peel'd off the dps, when its times to heal Paladin's can't do anything about their spells being the easiest in the game to interrupt and having no reliable alternative heals. No options = bad.

I guess my point is Brawl has no innovation, innovation that creates depth.

Though not balanced well the characters moveset's were balanced with a certain amount of lag for each move for a reason. L canceling is fine as it only halves the lag of any move (there is still lag to be skillfully punished on really slow powerful moves) with a well timed skillful button press. S canceling need not be either well timed or skillful and gives even the most powerful of moves 0 lag as it would the weakest of moves that already had almost no lag, this completely offsets the balance of moves.

That's what I was afraid of as well. It would be real crappy to have characters just running around spamming aerials and be nonpunishable. You should carefully choose your aerials knowing that if they get shielded, dodged, or out prioritized you will get punished. Mindlessly spamming moves just because you can will just turn it into SSB. I don't know how well SCing or LCing fits into the game because I've never played it but....I'd imagine it would be the same. The only thing I can do right now is just listen to the people who have played it, even though I think LCin will always be the better option.

 

[K1T3]

That's what I was afraid of as well. It would be real crappy to have characters just running around spamming aerials and be nonpunishable. You should carefully choose your aerials knowing that if they get shielded, dodged, or out prioritized you will get punished. Mindlessly spamming moves just because you can will just turn it into SSB. I don't know how well SCing or LCing fits into the game because I've never played it but....I'd imagine it would be the same. The only thing I can do right now is just listen to the people who have played it, even though I think LCin will always be the better option.

It should be mentioned that L canceling is harder in brawl than in melee. Factors like having to push L/R down all the way, slower fall speeds(if no grav mod), and greater hitstun(the smash DIable type, slows you down before you touch ground too) make the timing more difficult. I think this is better though as recieving this unintentional benifit that was not factored in for balancing takes good timing and skill to pull off, or pull off consistantly.

Come over and try all the different shiz out so you can make an informed analysis.

Edit: Messing with the hitstun.... it makes everyone ****... It's kinda nice... hmmmm... It makes brawl very different though, very combo oriented, but it's fun as hell.... I don't know if it makes anyone broken or not yet...

 

[The MC Clusky]

Yauhhzzzz I'm going all IKE .




I'm not Mr.C, but I have tested brawl+ a ****ton lol.

S-canceling
No tripping
Infinite replay time
Melee Airdodge
SBR Rules

MK doesn't need to be banned.

I have yet to test the new hitstun code, so I think the above are all I can approve of. I will test the hitsun soon. LeeHarris says it's amazing.

Why S canceling? No lag at all just sounds a bit overdoing it. Hitstun is still need of bug testing it seems.

And as long as we have one copy of Twilight Princess and an SD card, it shouldn't be that hard to get everything done right? Hylian is it possible to load everything you need on the SD card without the need to download something (since Gamelot doesn't have wi fi?)

And hopefully the process wouldn't take that long.

And to those who say we should only have regular Brawl forget that it takes about 10 years too much time for me to allow for other events. Besides, it's December, and with that spirit I don't see the need for everything to be serious. I have been ignoring teams and it's thanks to normal Brawl taking so long that there isn't anyone around at the end of Brawl singles to even have teams.

Btw I've been so busy I've forgotten that I'm updating the rules to SBR. I've had the same ruleset since launch and it's time I let it open up a little bit.

EDIT: It looks like the only two things we need to figure out is S canceling over L canceling and finalize hitstun/gravity/dmg settings. (the latter two are only maybes).

 

[K1T3]

Dude modify those SBR stage settings. If you look at the topic it says DO NOT COPY AND PASTE THESE RULES MODIFY THEM AS IF FIT, or something like that. It's simply to give people an outline or guide as to what to use for their tourney. The rules are good, most of the stages are fine, but there are walled and walk off stages on CP that should be banned for the exact same reasons they were banned in melee (and in melee they were banned because of just 1 character, now more than one character can chain grab you off or no skill wall infinite you)

As for doing brawl+ to my knowledge we will need an SD card for each Wii. Only one TP is needed as you said, and a laptop with a pack of the stuff to be put on the SD cards(not hard to get). No internet is needed as the stuff can be dled before hand.

Hitstun code is on version 1.2 last time I checked. There's just one more major bug to fix I think, it shouldn't be too long. Also with hitstun I don't think a change in gravity/dmg is needed as combos work fine without increasing the speed of things. Though I'm still unsure of how long the games will take...

 

[The MC Clusky]

I was hoping that the hitstun code wouldn't need a change in gravity or dmg setting because we would be getting into very debatable territory with that. Now the canceling debate needs to be finished.

Oh and of course I'm changing some of those rules. I find them to a bit out there. I'll post again when I'm done with them. Then I'll see about the December tournament hopefully before November 15th.

 

[LeeHarris]

Here's the perfect hacked Brawl format IMO:

.8 Damage Ratio
3 stock
Hit stun
Melee Air Dodge
S canceling

S canceling is easy, but at high levels of play all players have the ability to L cancel and it simply becomes one more barrier between noobs and pros. I'm only interested in high level play and I don't need a foolish and arbitrary barrier between scrubs and people with good technical skill. All high level players will have good technical skill, so why don't we just cut out the ridiculous and unnecessary learning gap. The point is to create options for offensive play, not to give yourself something to practice repeatedly until you get the timing down. Also, the shield drop time gives balance to most attacks as you cannot follow up, but it gives a few characters interesting options as well (such as like a Marth dair SCd to up B OOS).

 

[The MC Clusky]

I'm still with Mr C on the fact that NO lag means you can spam great attacks all day and not be punished for it.

The Marth combo does so pretty cool though. I've always wanted to combo Marth's dair in other ways.

I do agree that L canceling is somewhat arbitrary, that being there is no limit to it and no advantage to not doing it.

Just remember, this won't happen over night.

Hey Lee, is this being discussed in the Back room at all? An "official" rule set for Brawl plus?

 

[Hylian]

It doesn't seem like any of you actually play brawl, or you would know how many defensive options you have in this game.

I already gave reasons as to why S-canceling should be used. No one responded to them except Mr.C, and he said he trusts me...

Saying that you can just spam attacks all day without being punished is just speculation and false. Ganon can already auto-cancel his dair. Does that mean he can spam it all day and not be punished?...

Geez :/.

 

[The MC Clusky]

Here's my new ruleset for the Gamelot monthlies (this would also apply to Brawl+). I did not choose to add anything that the SBR marked for a possible ban such as Port City.


Random Select

Battlefield
Final Destination
Smashville
Yoshi's Island

Counterpick

Brinstar
Castle Siege
Corneria
Delfino
Distant Planet
Frigate Orpheon
Green Hill Zone
Jungle Japes
Luigi's Mansion
Lylat Cruise
Norfair
Pictochat
Pirate Ship
Pokémon Stadium 1
Pokémon Stadium 2
Rainbow Cruise
Yoshi's Island (Pipes)

Everything else is banned.

No items
Time Limit: 7 minutes
3 stock
At the beginning of a match players can opt for a double blind pick.

Each player can strike one non random stage.

At the start of the first round, each player can use one random reset, meaning if the stage that comes up on random is not to their liking, they may opt to randomize it again. If both players use their reset, the final reset must stay.

After the first round the loser picks the stage, the winner decides what character he will play and then the loser will pick their character and the next round will begin.

ALL Stall tactics such as MetaKnight's Infinite Dimensional Cape glitch are banned, unless they are for recovery purposes.

Discuss.

 

[Espy Rose]

Dude modify those SBR stage settings. If you look at the topic it says DO NOT COPY AND PASTE THESE RULES MODIFY THEM AS IF FIT, or something like that. It's simply to give people an outline or guide as to what to use for their tourney. The rules are good, most of the stages are fine, but there are walled and walk off stages on CP that should be banned for the exact same reasons they were banned in melee (and in melee they were banned because of just 1 character, now more than one character can chain grab you off or no skill wall infinite you)

As for doing brawl+ to my knowledge we will need an SD card for each Wii. Only one TP is needed as you said, and a laptop with a pack of the stuff to be put on the SD cards(not hard to get). No internet is needed as the stuff can be dled before hand.

Hitstun code is on version 1.2 last time I checked. There's just one more major bug to fix I think, it shouldn't be too long. Also with hitstun I don't think a change in gravity/dmg is needed as combos work fine without increasing the speed of things. Though I'm still unsure of how long the games will take...

If I take my own SD card, would it be cool if you placed all that hacking jazz on mine?
All I need is a ****ed SD reader, then I could hack my version of Brawl if someone can gimme the homebrew and the like...

Besides, I want to experiment with Brawl+ as well, on my own time.

It doesn't seem like any of you actually play brawl, or you would know how many defensive options you have in this game.

I already gave reasons as to why S-canceling should be used. No one responded to them except Mr.C, and he said he trusts me...

Saying that you can just spam attacks all day without being punished is just speculation and false. Ganon can already auto-cancel his dair. Does that mean he can spam it all day and not be punished?...

Geez :/.

lol. You're just saying this because you want to fair with Ike all day long. =P

-----

@KM: 0_o

Corneria, Luigi's Mansion, Green Hill Zone, Distant Planet, AND Pictochat?

....

Whatever the rules, I'll probably play anyways. It sounds like fun.

 

[Hylian]

Here's my new ruleset for the Gamelot monthlies (this would also apply to Brawl+). I did not choose to add anything that the SBR marked for a possible ban such as Port City.


Random Select

Battlefield
Final Destination
Smashville
Yoshi's Island

Counterpick

Brinstar
Castle Siege
Corneria
Delfino
Distant Planet
Frigate Orpheon
Green Hill Zone
Jungle Japes
Luigi's Mansion
Lylat Cruise
Norfair
Pictochat
Pirate Ship
Pokémon Stadium 1
Pokémon Stadium 2
Rainbow Cruise
Yoshi's Island (Pipes)

Everything else is banned.

No items
Time Limit: 7 minutes
3 stock
At the beginning of a match players can opt for a double blind pick.

Each player can strike one non random stage.

At the start of the first round, each player can use one random reset, meaning if the stage that comes up on random is not to their liking, they may opt to randomize it again. If both players use their reset, the final reset must stay.

After the first round the loser picks the stage, the winner decides what character he will play and then the loser will pick their character and the next round will begin.

ALL Stall tactics such as MetaKnight's Infinite Dimensional Cape glitch are banned, unless they are for recovery purposes.

Discuss.

Kyle .

Goodish, but still keeping random instead of the stage striking system o.o? >_>...Stage striking(California Knockout Rule) is soooooo much better then random lol.


Edit:

I don't see anything wrong with those stages espy lol...

 

[Espy Rose]

Kyle .

Goodish, but still keeping random instead of the stage striking system o.o? >_>...Stage striking(California Knockout Rule) is soooooo much better then random lol.

I don't see anything wrong with those stages espy lol...

I couldn't care either way about that knockout rule. It usually boils down to Smashville or FD anyways for me...

Distant Planet I don't have a problem with, and GHZ is super sexy, except for DDD...

DDD makes me cry for GHZ and Corneria, and Luigi's Mansion should be renamed MK's Whorehouse.

As for PictoChat...I had a terrible experience with PictoChat during Lee's Swiss Tournament at the D-Pad.

 

[The MC Clusky]

Final changes still pending on the rule set in that case.

Btw, I happen to have an SD card reader on my laptop, just so everyone knows............

 

[Espy Rose]

Final changes still pending on the rule set in that case.

Btw, I happen to have an SD card reader on my laptop, just so everyone knows............

Lucky punk. I have to go buy those USB SD Readers at Wal-Mart sometime this week or next...since my laptop miraculously lacks it.

It sucks. I mean, my new laptop is fresh and very retardedly new. Why it lacks an SD Reader is beyond me.

 

[The MC Clusky]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7PKzqH4FnaM

Most fun I've ever had playing Brawl.

 

[Hylian]

Mr.C check this out:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SH1W6rhT1vU

 

[fsdfsdgsgdf]

Greenhill zone.....

Someone (like Hylian) tell me exactly how good Diddy is in this new brawl? for some reason i see him almost at god tier with the nana's

 

[Hylian]

Greenhill zone.....

Someone (like Hylian) tell me exactly how good Diddy is in this new brawl? for some reason i see him almost at god tier with the nana's

How so?


I think he's around the same honestly. I didn't mess with him too much, but I mean he can already WD(dribble) without the melee ad so lol.

 

[fsdfsdgsgdf]

How so?


I think he's around the same honestly. I didn't mess with him too much, but I mean he can already WD(dribble) without the melee ad so lol.

I dont know much about Diddy since i just got into brawl, but nvm i guess. Only characters i focus on are Peach, kirby and PT. I also would like to know how they are in brawl+

 

[The MC Clusky]

I dont know much about Diddy since i just got into brawl, but nvm i guess. Only characters i focus on are Peach, kirby and PT. I also would like to know how they are in brawl+

Hopefully we can find out at the next smashfest.

Anyways, I'm currently revising the random select system in favor of the striking system. The stages are still being decided upon.

Among other changes.

 

[fsdfsdgsgdf]

Hopefully we can find out at the next smashfest.

Anyways, I'm currently revising the random select system in favor of the striking system. The stages are still being decided upon.

Among other changes.

Keep Greenhill zone plz

 

[Hylian]

I dont know much about Diddy since i just got into brawl, but nvm i guess. Only characters i focus on are Peach, kirby and PT. I also would like to know how they are in brawl+

Peach:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BQbfUXIqrSQ

 

[fsdfsdgsgdf]

Peach:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BQbfUXIqrSQ

quite sexy

 

[K1T3]

.8 dmg... let's make the games last even longer.... I know increasing dmg lowers the percent to which falco can do his inescapable chain throw, so an inverse relation would be that lowering the dmg means it increases the percent he can chain till?


L canceling vs S canceling
At the very highest level of play sure L canceling is not missed 99% of the time. Almost no one gets to that level of play though. Even the people with the best tech skill I've seen or people that are just good (Alex, Lee(LA), Cave, etc) I have not met a single person who's missed L cancels I could not punish. Meaning there were missed L cancels. With L canceling the other person can do a lot to change the timing for when your L cancel needs to be, this is even more true in brawl, and by making you miss it then punish you for it. Even if you do get it 99% of the time there is still that 1% that a good player will punish you for greatly. With S canceling there is no timing it, it is simply a free 0 lag everytime no matter what the other person does. This does not take skill, this does not allow the other person to mess up your timing. If it's like that than the code should just be to give all aerials 0 lag in the first place with no need to hold down the shield button. L canceling is something that rewards those who put time and effort into practicing to get better. It's something that adds skill and depth to the game. When I play Alex for instance if he does a super insane combo on me that just shouldn't happen I know it's because of the massive amount of time he has put into bringing his tech skill to that level. Even at my best I would not have been able to pull off that combo as I would probably miss one of the eight L cancels needed to string the whole thing. Such a feat should not come free. Take CvS2 for the gamecube. There is an option that allows you to do specials with the C-stick so Akuma's Demon Rage can be done simply by pushing the C-stick in a diagonal direction, or other like specials. This is of course banned as it takes away the skill of the game. Of course it's better to end your combo with a special everytime as it adds more dmg but it's something that takes skill to do and should not be free and automatic. Yes L canceling will take practice and it should be done everytime, but rightfully so. The fact is you won't get it everytime, especially in brawl where it's harder and the timing can vary in much greater degrees causing more misses, but it still adds possibilities for both you and your opponent. You can do a laggy move expecting to get the L cancel and your opponent can do something to change your timing for instance which causes you to miss it which you didn't plan, now your opponent can punish you because of something they did.
Hylian you didn't really make any arguments for S canceling over L caneling and that's why I didn't respond. You're one argument is that L canceling doesn't add much. This is just wrong, test it some more. L canceling allows plenty of consecutive hit combos that were not doable before, even without hitstun. As I try out hitstun more though it seems quite nice and as though it should be included and with L canceling so much more will be possible on top of what it already possible without the increased hitstun. Being able to spam any aerial you want (S cancel) with increased hitstun on is even worse...

My recommendation for a Brawl+ stageset.
Starters:
Battlefield
Smashville
Final Destination
Yoshi's Island (Wii)
Lylat Cruise

Starter/Counter:
Pokémon Stadium 1
Pokémon Stadium 2
Halberd
Delfino
Castle Siege

Counter Pick:
Rainbow Cruise
Frigate Orpheon
Brinstar
Pirate Ship
Jungle Japes

Counter/Ban:
Luigi's Mansion - can get the lead and run away the rest of the match if faster character, somewhat balanced by the fact you can destroy the house with sufficient time
Corneria - wall of infinites, nearly impossible to avoid having to go down there, divider to promote camping and running away with a percent lead
Norfair - lava kills at low percents and combos everywhere, though it's more of just different not really broken
Skyworld - hyrule running away with percent lead, gimp recoveries are gimped worse
Distant Planet - walk off stage to the left
Pictochat - lots of stage hazards that can kill you at low percents, again nothing really broken
Green Greens - walls, glitches, run away camping galore!
Port Town Aero Dive - cars that kill at 40%.... technically not broken...
Green Hill Zone - walk off ledges on both sides.... I mean come on....
Yoshi Pipes - walk off stage to the right

Everything else banned for obvious gayities, walls, walk off stages, and camping (let me know if you need an explanation of why any of those aspects are ban worthy)

If you want more starter stages I would suggest picking from the starter/counter list, else just make all those counter picks.
I provided a simple analysis of each stage I listed in the Counter/Ban section. I personally feel that certain of those should certainly be counter and some should certainly be banned but I'm not hosting the tourney so I'll leave the call up to you. Let me know if you want a more in depth analysis of any of those stages.
Note (after seeing the stage list you put up) - If walk offs were banned in melee due to waveshine kills which only worked on select characters and took skill to do then shouldn't they be banned in brawl where one DDD grab can walk off half the cast without any skill at all? Not to mention falco can do it semi decently and people can just camp a side for a low percent back throw kill...)

Edit: I'm fine with random stage select or the striking system, but I do not see any logical reason why striking would be sooooo much better as Hylian put it. If the starters are neutral stages as they should be then the people should be able to play on any one of those particular stages. There is even a random reset if there's a stage you really don't like.

 

[Hylian]

Kite- There are these things called paragraphs..and they make text easier to read.

 

[GreyFox86]

Lol there's just too much reading for all this. Love Hylian's sig <3

All i need for the Brawl+ is TP game save . Who has TP so i don't have to buy it?

 

[Hylian]

Lol there's just too much reading for all this. Love Hylian's sig <3

All i need for the Brawl+ is TP game save . Who has TP so i don't have to buy it?

Yessss.

Let just all stop reading and stare at my sig ^_^.

 

[GreyFox86]

Who made that for you if you don't mind me asking?
Pure sex <3333

 

[Espy Rose]

Yessss.

Let just all stop reading and stare at my sig ^_^.

Pfft, you don't even play Samus anymore.

At least I second Jiggz in Brawl.
Speaking of which, Jiggz might be fun to play in Brawl+. Hell, she's fun to play in just Brawl...

Kite, answer my question please.

 

[K1T3]

There are these things called good logical arguements that people with no real arguments who simply make subjective statements do anything to avoid =) (but yeah you're right it's a wall of text, maybe I'll clean it up later, it's really just meant for Kyle, though, since he wanted the debate settled)

Espy - yeah if I'm there with my laptop I can give you all the stuff you need, but you would be much better off going below, it gives you everything you need in a really simple fashion.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=199810

And yes jiggs is hella fun and awesome. Especially with hitstun =)

Edit: just looked at the sig, that is pretty pimp, but it should be TGM's sig since he actually plays Samus =P