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The Samus Boards are at Peace | The Dead Social
- Thread starter IsmaR
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U-tilt/D-smash more mang. They beat out certain moves half the time.
Also happy bird-killing day people who play a character raised by bird people.
Also happy bird-killing day people who play a character raised by bird people.
Xyro77
Unity Ruleset Committee Member
Has anybody read some data on olimar?
Blue and purple grabs kill
Purple throw goes thru zair/missles
ALL color throw stop missile
Samus f-tilt gets out ranged by grabs
Not one move samus has will knock off all pikmin in one hit(nair wont and def wont once its stale)
Usmash stops samus falling dair and uair
red smash and red throw go thru fair/usmash/bombs/dtilt
yellow smash and yellow throw go thru charge shot
1 grab(any color) to dthrow at low percents leads to fair or uair or usmash
olimar wins the spam game
These are facts^
So i have 3 options from what i see:
1. Wait till olimar jump throws and go in with a dash attack of zair
2. Stay on ledge, run timer. If he tries to fsmash with blue/yellow/white, jump up and attack. then repeat.
3. Pick up another char
Seriously, im realizing more and more than olimar MUST be(screw noid) the hardest MU for samus and makes me think olimar is underrated(not by alot but some fur sure).
@ismar
wtf is utilt gonna do to someone who out ranges me and has NO REASON to get close to me?
@Delx
yea i pay attention to the order. Had my character gone even with him or slightly lose to him then the order of pikmin would matter but since i got 90000000000 things against me....knowing the order doesnt do much.
Xyro77
Unity Ruleset Committee Member
smoom, if you are gonna give advice.....give advice not some generic worthless statement. you have the delight of a 70-30 MU vs olimar so u would not understand what i have to go thru.
Xyro77
Unity Ruleset Committee Member
You have no status when around me(you are nothing but a smoom) therefore you cant give orders.
Xyro77
Unity Ruleset Committee Member
im seriously thinking of dropping rob for olimar. he has lots of the tools many of the top tiers have.
Pikmin order matters more the better the Olimar player gets
Also some Oli players will SH pik throw and others will just ground pik throw
All of them throw whites, many throw purples, and some throw any color if they want to
Exploit this: Olimar players usually stick to their side b preference.
Also some Oli players will SH pik throw and others will just ground pik throw
All of them throw whites, many throw purples, and some throw any color if they want to
Exploit this: Olimar players usually stick to their side b preference.
NO-IDea
Smash Lord
I play Logic often and have beaten a couple Olimars from several regions in tourney. You just need to get out of that mindset that all Samus has is d-air and f-smash and start playing smarter. Do you even ask yourself what's killing you in your videos? It's just simple, repetitive mistakes.
It's not as if Olimar shuts down z-air like other characters can (in fact, the only character that really shuts down z-air is Falco. All other characters have to approach or get hit.) And it's easy to put Olimar into a bad position using z-air. That alone refutes the possibility of a 70-30 MU.
The only reason you may think it's hard now is because Samus is an underused character with an under-developed metagame and you can't handle utilizing different methods to overcome this obstacle. If d-air and u-air don't work, you need to start looking at your ground options more; learn to space and time your tilts better and learn your jab cancel/grab mix-ups. Do you know how often you're landing f-smashes? That move is 10 frames! Grab is only 4 more frames longer but goes through shield. Your opponent has a spot dodge habit? Punish it! Not to mention there are a ton of moves that are better options either because they A) are faster than 10 frames, B) do more damage than 13%, C) launch them into the air without knocking too far that they can DI away to avoid any follow-up, or D)ALL OF THE ABOVE. Not to mention, you can land the f-smash later for a kill? It's not stale?
Examples:
d-tilt, 6 frames, 14%, launcher
d-smash, 9 frames, 15%, launcher
jab, 3 frames, lift the opponent into the air, true combo into jab 2 for a total of 10% at mid percents, jab cancel into tilts/smashes
grab, 14 frames, launcher
*Notice how I removed up+b from this list. The people I play SDI out of it often so I don't use it as often.*
If you're not racking any damage from launching him in the air with z-air, then you need to learn your juggling options better. Z-air to z-air is not as rewarding as z-air to dash attack into a read air dodge, punished with d-smash, or a read f-air punished with shield grab, etc. You can always reset the juggle instead of trying to end it with z-air. There are plenty of opportunities to be had with using n-air as well, not to mention conditioning air dodges into a grounded d-air or jab lock. And b-air. If you can land d-airs, you can land b-airs (the start-up is as equally long for both). And b-air is a legitimate kill move as well as a damage racker and juggling option.
I see you walk now and then whip out another d-air or d-smash or f-smash (especially in the Peach MU, and especially after landing a d-air.) But when was the last time you walked and tried something else? When was the last time instead of walking towards them, you walked away? You can space and pivot and you'd be amazed how often you land moves. Nearly every other character has an option out of walking away (a move that spaces itself.) Samus does too.
Some characters are going to force you to change your playstyle. Deal with it if you want to main a character in general, not just Samus. And you need to master all her options.
It's not as if Olimar shuts down z-air like other characters can (in fact, the only character that really shuts down z-air is Falco. All other characters have to approach or get hit.) And it's easy to put Olimar into a bad position using z-air. That alone refutes the possibility of a 70-30 MU.
The only reason you may think it's hard now is because Samus is an underused character with an under-developed metagame and you can't handle utilizing different methods to overcome this obstacle. If d-air and u-air don't work, you need to start looking at your ground options more; learn to space and time your tilts better and learn your jab cancel/grab mix-ups. Do you know how often you're landing f-smashes? That move is 10 frames! Grab is only 4 more frames longer but goes through shield. Your opponent has a spot dodge habit? Punish it! Not to mention there are a ton of moves that are better options either because they A) are faster than 10 frames, B) do more damage than 13%, C) launch them into the air without knocking too far that they can DI away to avoid any follow-up, or D)ALL OF THE ABOVE. Not to mention, you can land the f-smash later for a kill? It's not stale?
Examples:
d-tilt, 6 frames, 14%, launcher
d-smash, 9 frames, 15%, launcher
jab, 3 frames, lift the opponent into the air, true combo into jab 2 for a total of 10% at mid percents, jab cancel into tilts/smashes
grab, 14 frames, launcher
*Notice how I removed up+b from this list. The people I play SDI out of it often so I don't use it as often.*
If you're not racking any damage from launching him in the air with z-air, then you need to learn your juggling options better. Z-air to z-air is not as rewarding as z-air to dash attack into a read air dodge, punished with d-smash, or a read f-air punished with shield grab, etc. You can always reset the juggle instead of trying to end it with z-air. There are plenty of opportunities to be had with using n-air as well, not to mention conditioning air dodges into a grounded d-air or jab lock. And b-air. If you can land d-airs, you can land b-airs (the start-up is as equally long for both). And b-air is a legitimate kill move as well as a damage racker and juggling option.
I see you walk now and then whip out another d-air or d-smash or f-smash (especially in the Peach MU, and especially after landing a d-air.) But when was the last time you walked and tried something else? When was the last time instead of walking towards them, you walked away? You can space and pivot and you'd be amazed how often you land moves. Nearly every other character has an option out of walking away (a move that spaces itself.) Samus does too.
Some characters are going to force you to change your playstyle. Deal with it if you want to main a character in general, not just Samus. And you need to master all her options.
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Muz
Smash Apprentice
Great read NOID, I especially like this quote. I was actually thinking about making a thread to discuss "Samus's least used move" ie: Walking. Samus has so many excellent spacing options, and her distance game is so awesome, yet for some reason we as Samus mains are stuck in the mindset of CONSTANTLY jumping and zairing. And although Zair is awesome, putting Samus at a higher elevation than most of the cast puts her at a really bad position, especially considering that she dies off the top so easily. Walking to a distance where you can't be punished not only keeps you safe (especially against shorter characters), but also allows you to react properly to what your opponent is doing. Plus I have found it to be such an awesome mindgame, when the opponent sees you casually walking, their natural inclination is to drop their shield and approach(Try walking away and once you read the shield drop, then quickly turn around and dash attack, you'll be surprised how many times this hits). And also once you learn their favorite way to approach, that can be (usually) be punished pretty easily.
Walking towards your opponent is also helpful in spacing tilts so that you don't get shield grabbed (except against people like olimar, link, etc with long grabs). You can even occasionally walk through a person as they are about to attack, then turn around and hit them.
basically my motto about walking is:
WALKING IS THE NEW WAVE DASH
KillerJawz
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This part confused me. Only one piece of that frame data is correct, or is that frame data not actually for the moves you listed?
Aside from that, agreed 100%.
NO-IDea
Smash Lord
What isn't correct?
Dragonmaster_Omega
Smash Journeyman
Walking i find is a lot more viable against Olimar than most other characters, simply because, not only is Olimar short (giving some people like myself a hard time zairing him), but also SHing leaves Samus open for so long most Olimars can literally simply run and boost-usmash.
Also, about the factual data about Pikmin that Xyro posted earlier:
Blue throws are kill move-viable as f or bthrow, Purples mostly uthrow.
White pikmin cause double pummel damage when latched
Red pikmin have the highest knockback not counting throws
Yellows are the most disjointed, especially on usmash
Yellows have the least hitstun on throws, especially on fthrow, you can literally use any move almost immediatly after being thrown.
All color pikmin move the same distance at the same speed when Olimar uses dsmash
You can escape throws before you ever reach olimar when a purple grabs you at lower and even mid percents due to their low return speed.
Perhaps the most interesting fact, different pikmin have different chances of being plucked from different types of floors.
Also, while i am not totally sure about fair, but i don't believe that dthrow>usmash true combos on Samus, at least from my experience
Also, about the factual data about Pikmin that Xyro posted earlier:
Blue throws are kill move-viable as f or bthrow, Purples mostly uthrow.
White pikmin cause double pummel damage when latched
Red pikmin have the highest knockback not counting throws
Yellows are the most disjointed, especially on usmash
Yellows have the least hitstun on throws, especially on fthrow, you can literally use any move almost immediatly after being thrown.
All color pikmin move the same distance at the same speed when Olimar uses dsmash
You can escape throws before you ever reach olimar when a purple grabs you at lower and even mid percents due to their low return speed.
Perhaps the most interesting fact, different pikmin have different chances of being plucked from different types of floors.
Also, while i am not totally sure about fair, but i don't believe that dthrow>usmash true combos on Samus, at least from my experience
Zatchiel
a little slice of heaven 🍰
Oh darn, i missed all the trolling. I would've come in sooner to tell Xyro that D1 only played Melee, with occasional Brawl for fun.
I could tell from watching the videos that he was struggling, and his MK isn't half-bad, it just lacks some MU knowledge. I can't really say Wes is bad, but he too was uneducated in how to play the match-ups presented. I've seen them both in Melee placed action, and their play is near unfathomable, but there's no real reason to call either of them scrubs.
To me it's quite simple that Shadow was clearly exaggerating what he thought out to be experienced play. Without a doubt they both have experience, but he's basing said experience on the wrong game.
No offense to anyone of course, but everyone's right, although a few have the wrong perspective of the matter, and others have a bias by opinion.
I could tell from watching the videos that he was struggling, and his MK isn't half-bad, it just lacks some MU knowledge. I can't really say Wes is bad, but he too was uneducated in how to play the match-ups presented. I've seen them both in Melee placed action, and their play is near unfathomable, but there's no real reason to call either of them scrubs.
To me it's quite simple that Shadow was clearly exaggerating what he thought out to be experienced play. Without a doubt they both have experience, but he's basing said experience on the wrong game.
No offense to anyone of course, but everyone's right, although a few have the wrong perspective of the matter, and others have a bias by opinion.
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I am seriously disappointed that anything that transpired on this thread could even be considered close to "trolling."
KillerJawz
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Grab is frame 17, not 14. (19 Pivoted)
Dtilt is frame 7, not 6
Dsmash is frame 7, not 9.
NO-IDea
Smash Lord
Interesting. Where did you get that info? And why isn't that frame data posted on these boards?
KillerJawz
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I believe the grab frame data can be found on the smash wiki and in another thread in tactical discussion. The rest of the data was in the old guide, but we were looking into Luxor to do our frame data for us (I messaged him a while back, it might pay for someone to message him again).
Are you 100% sure on this because a friend of mine who mains Olimar said that yellow has the most stun on dthrow
NO-IDea
Smash Lord
Interesting. So what you're saying is that I'm landing my grabs even though it's 17 frames long?! LMAOROFL
Alright, for real guys. There is no reason other Samus mains aren't abusing her grab at close range. Clearly it's more than just hard to react to.
Also, d-tilt and d-smash the same frame? Why isn't everyone using d-smash more then? It does more damage and shield knockback (at least I think) than d-tilt.
Furthermore, no offense, but wtf KJ. You know this frame data and your playstyle doesn't capitalize on it at all. That's disgusting. No wonder why you think the way you do.
Alright, for real guys. There is no reason other Samus mains aren't abusing her grab at close range. Clearly it's more than just hard to react to.
Also, d-tilt and d-smash the same frame? Why isn't everyone using d-smash more then? It does more damage and shield knockback (at least I think) than d-tilt.
Furthermore, no offense, but wtf KJ. You know this frame data and your playstyle doesn't capitalize on it at all. That's disgusting. No wonder why you think the way you do.
Dragonmaster_Omega
Smash Journeyman
@Delx: I may honestly be wrong on dthrow, but i know that this is true on f and bthrow for sure.
Also, i believe those frame data number mark when the move is considered an actual attack and will do damage and knockback
Also, i believe those frame data number mark when the move is considered an actual attack and will do damage and knockback
-Vocal-
Smash Hero
Lol, how right you are
OH Smoom
**** skippy
Dthrow>Usmash combos on everyone at low enough percents when buffered
From around 2% to 17%, yellows do have the most hitstun, iirc, about 10 frames more than the others. Outside of that, however, they have the least.
KillerJawz
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One more personal jab and that warning will become an infraction. That was totally uncalled for.
Edit: On a far more positive note. I netted myself 8 Xbox 360 RPGs. It's a good day <3
NO-IDea
Smash Lord
Edit: Innappropriate.
Crystanium
Smash Hero
I hope everyone had a good Thanksgiving. I will be returning to San Jose tomorrow, although a lot of you were likely unaware that I was even present. I mean, not being here for a month is blatantly obvious. I will be returning in 17 more days if you do not count the weekends. Aside from that, I wanted to buy Donkey Kong Country Returns, but I have been unable to. I also wanted the new GoldenEye game, but I haven't bought that yet, either. Perhaps I will buy these some time early in the future.
Hive
Smash Lord
Wait, when did you move to San Jose?! How kwl! you are like 15 minutes away, I'm like right in Sunnyvale you should swing by sometime and play or I could use the light rail to get to you. :D I haven't played smash in so long it would be fun!
Crystanium
Smash Hero
My living in San Jose will be a temporary one. I've been there for a year now (Nov. 9, 2009). I haven't been playing Brawl that much either, but I've kind of (emphasis on "kind of") been playing Melee. Hehe. Light rail. That's cool. Before that, I would not have known what that was.
It would be cool if we hung out. Man!
Hive
Smash Lord
Totally! I would love to play! casually of course since we both have been pretty slacking in the brawl area hehe. I played a little melee some too... but... I suck at it. BIG TIME.
Plus I only get to play it when my friend comes over bc I don't have the game anymore lol. I've been trying to look into sc2 and some other pc stuff lately instead. It would be exciting to meet sometime though irl!
Crystanium
Smash Hero
Casually? Hehe. I like to play competitively, even if I am as rusty as a nail. My brother still has Melee, although we have a friend who has Melee, too, and we have been using his since my brother left Melee here in Fresno. He said he was going to take it to San Jose so he won't have to ask.Totally! I would love to play! casually of course since we both have been pretty slacking in the brawl area hehe. I played a little melee some too... but... I suck at it. BIG TIME.
Hive
Smash Lord
Oh! i didn't mean casually like not trying to win heh.
KillerJawz
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Ahh that's really good to hear Dryn. Do tell me if you get DKCR so you can tell me what its like <3
Crystanium
Smash Hero
All right, KillerJawz.
I heard it got good reviews, but I want to play it myself and see what it's all about.
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Same here, most likely have to put it on hold though. Need to find me a way to make my Brawl not freeze upon seeing Kirby. Or Ike.
KillerJawz
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I must say Issy this is your strangest choice of title yet.
I never did get a SNES when I was younger so I never got into the DK series. I was seriously glued to Pokemon at that time ;___;. I may just go out to some retro shop and buy a SNES just for the sake of it.
I never did get a SNES when I was younger so I never got into the DK series. I was seriously glued to Pokemon at that time ;___;. I may just go out to some retro shop and buy a SNES just for the sake of it.
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I dl'd it on the VC. Some of my fondest memories were playing the series, though didn't understand much of what I was doing then.
And I've been wanting to make this a title for a while, thought I wouldn't get to when you said we need to include General Discussion/Social Thread in the OP. Hooray for redundant automatic title thingys.
And I've been wanting to make this a title for a while, thought I wouldn't get to when you said we need to include General Discussion/Social Thread in the OP. Hooray for redundant automatic title thingys.
Our general/social is a general/social!