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Meta "The Saikyo Dojo" Ryu Metagame Discussion.

mimgrim

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Could be, by why pursue a positional advantage when you can take the stock? That was my point. To equate to other games, if you have the chance to start a combo that will Def KO your opponent, why go for a grab that you know won't? Likewise, if you opponent is at 60%+, why go for a grab that you know won't kill instead or a basic combo which will take the stock?
Because you might be only be able to get the grab and not the combo starter? Just because the opponent is at kill percent doesn't mean it is going to be that simple to actually kill them and doesn't mean you will always have the chance to kill them. And trying to hard to go for the KO ends up making you predictable meaning you will have a even harder time to go for the KO.

And for the shield comment thing that was mentioned before about Collarbone Breaker. I thought it was established already that Collarbone Breaker actually isn't that good against Shields since the first hit on shield can be rolled.
 

Elessar

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Because you might be only be able to get the grab and not the combo starter? Just because the opponent is at kill percent doesn't mean it is going to be that simple to actually kill them and doesn't mean you will always have the chance to kill them. And trying to hard to go for the KO ends up making you predictable meaning you will have a even harder time to go for the KO.

And for the shield comment thing that was mentioned before about Collarbone Breaker. I thought it was established already that Collarbone Breaker actually isn't that good against Shields since the first hit on shield can be rolled.
To be honest, I'm not sure on the collarbone breaker. However, I was talking about a specific situation, that being you shielding an opponent who is right next to you. While a dash grab may still be required even at kill percentages to obtain positioning advantage, grabbing an opponent who is standing right next to you and is open for a punish instead of punishing in a more definite way seems to be a waste of an opportunity to secure the KO. In any case, Ryu seems to benefit from being in cqc, so reseting the spacing might not be the most advisable decision either.
 
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TheReflexWonder

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"Saikyo Dojo" is correct, as an aside. That said, that's Dan's thing, who is a joke character. :/
 
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D

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I'm going to say that IMO a grab is a fine option on non-shielding opponents actually up until around 80%, because True SRK will only KO the very lightweights at 60%.

Of course, to me, if the opponent is just sitting in their shield I will go for the grab just to get some free damage anyways.

But from there you don't need a combo starter, even a simple jab or tilt (read: tap/weak U-Tilt/D-Tilt) confirm means death at that point.
 

SevenYearItch

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I grab out of habit tbh. Playing Falcon just has my finger permanently affixed to the grab button, same with Olimar. For Ryu its not needed past even like.....50% I'd say since you can combo from 50 to kill easily without it
 

keronshb

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For Tap utilt you need to be right next to your opponent, so you have to wait for either a solid read or a punish of a Telegraphed laggy move (like a charged smash). Tap utilt is slightly easier because it was more range but the same spacing rule applies basically.

If you can't approach with a landing nair, try doing an empty sh. Mix up your approach and games and try to adapt to your opponent since not only do you have to take the MU into account bit also the player's personal style.
Cool, I'll test it out next time!

Also about attacking people that roll behind you, is True/Tatsu the only good immediate option or would trying to (attempt) a BAir be useful?
 

Z1GMA

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Just battled a Roy. He used counter when I jabbed him up Close, but then I canceled it into EX Shory and hit him Before the counter hit me. It looked pretty dope.
 

Elessar

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Cool, I'll test it out next time!

Also about attacking people that roll behind you, is True/Tatsu the only good immediate option or would trying to (attempt) a BAir be useful?
You could reverse focus attack as well, or sh nair since nair does have a slight hitbox behind Ryu.
 

Champ Gold

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Perfect Shield(Parry) into Shoryuken is the best feeling best KO option
 

icraq

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I'm pretty sure Focus's shield comes out frame 1. That's insane. Tested on mac's jab. I think it's potentially a strong option to punish the very last hit of a rapid jab.
 

BlueBirdE

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Curious does ryu have option selects similar to sf style? For example in sf4 you can throw out a regular jab and time a special afterwards where the special wont come out if you make contact with an opponent but if it does not (ex opponent backdashes) the special will. Wondering if the same can be applied on whiff,shield,etc.
 

PokemonyeWest

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Curious does ryu have option selects similar to sf style? For example in sf4 you can throw out a regular jab and time a special afterwards where the special wont come out if you make contact with an opponent but if it does not (ex opponent backdashes) the special will. Wondering if the same can be applied on whiff,shield,etc.
Nah completely different game engines
 

icraq

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Curious does ryu have option selects similar to sf style? For example in sf4 you can throw out a regular jab and time a special afterwards where the special wont come out if you make contact with an opponent but if it does not (ex opponent backdashes) the special will. Wondering if the same can be applied on whiff,shield,etc.
Nah completely different game engines
Actually it appears you can option select. Just went and tested it real quick. It's easy to see in training mode. You just have to beat the buffer system. Jab into true SRK is an easy one, if the jab whiffs and you put SRK you'll just do another jab1. If it connects there's enough hitlag for true SRK to come out. Same with Upb but it doesn't do another jab.

Edit: wait I think I misread what you asked, hang on

Edit 2: yeah my bad. I thought you were asking the opposite. So there's an option select of sorts but not like what you were wondering. Still, pleased I know I should just input SRK after everything I do.
 
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Z1GMA

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It seems it's a lot easier to combo off of F1 if you use it as a linker, rather than a starter.
 
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BlueBirdE

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Nice I tried out the jab 1 true dp and it does work :). Doesnt seem to with dtilt or utilt. Thought it mightve been nice for dtilt or utilt special to work if they rolled or spotdodged or time it where special doesnt come out on hitting shield. Might have been too good
 

mimgrim

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cr.lk and cl.lp both true combo into true DP as well, actually. cr.mk doesn't combo into true DP but can into true Tatsu, Fireball, and EX Fireball at low precents and cl.hp can combo into true DP as well but it isn't quite as effective since they are generally popped more into the air and doesn't work as well the higher percents the opponent gets.
 

keronshb

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If timed right you can do Soft Walking Attack > Hard Standing A. It might've been a fluke on my part, but I was able to combo into it against an opponent twice, mostly on accident.
 

Emblem Lord

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It's called positional advantage and forces them into a trap situation.

Smash players highly underrate the use of positional advantage.
Talking to a Sagat, Dhalsim and Yang player here.

Positional advantage ftw
 

A2ZOMG

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I was playing some games yesterday and I realized something: grabbing serves no purpose with Ryu past 60%. I mean, think about it, once a character is at 60% or past it, they are within kill range essentially. If you can land a solid combo that ends with a true SRK you should be KOing your opponent (it is still char dependant but true SRK KOs at 80). So why waste an opening with a grab when Ryu's grab serves no other purpose than racking up dmg? He has no follow up, no kill throws, throwing doesn't leave our opponents in a position advantageous to us (and in some cases it actually favors them since we reset spacing), and we don't really want them to be off stage over onstage since Ryu doesn't seem to be a gimping char. I honestly can't think of a valid reason to grab someone past 60%. Yet I kept doing it because I'm so used to it and then I regretted it because it was actually a wasted punishing opportunity.

In essence, once our opponent reaches 60% we shouldn't even consider grabbing an option. If your opponent is shielding and is within grabbing range go for a collarbone breaker instead (h ftilt), and if they aren't shielding, depending on their dmg, go for a combo that ends with a true SRK and you should be able to get the stock.
They can technically roll out of collarbone breaker. Ryu's dashgrab is also extremely good and important for beating reaction time. As long as that's true, grabbing is still extremely important on Ryu for controlling the game. This isn't to say that you shouldn't optimize your punishes. But grabbing in general is really good on Ryu.

Also Ryu actually gets great positional advantage from his throws. Chasing people with Shoryuken is not that unsafe (this can kill people at high altitudes), and fireball traps are surprisingly effective in the air. Sure it's not exactly Falcon level trap shenanigans, but Ryu is quite good at controlling space just generally speaking.
 
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Emblem Lord

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Gonna make a nice post later today about ledge traps, air traps and Ryus optimal spacing on the ground for pressure and mix-ups.
 

icraq

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Gonna make a nice post later today about ledge traps, air traps and Ryus optimal spacing on the ground for pressure and mix-ups.
Excited to hear your thoughts. I'd also enjoy hearing your ideas on approaches in the neutral, that's where I feel I struggle the most. But the things you mention all would be related to that I'm guessing.
 

Emblem Lord

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Ok, well im bored at work now so lemme just ask how do you approach and when/where do you struggle and vs which characters?
 

icraq

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Ok, well im bored at work now so lemme just ask how do you approach and when/where do you struggle and vs which characters?
Hm, didn't expect this. I guess I don't really know what I'm doing to approach. Sometimes the usual stuff, dash in and shield, dash in and roll back, dash in and spot dodge. I'll occasionally use hadoukens to cover these approaches. Offensive approaches are typically nair or fair but those lose to shield, and tomahawking is a little slow. Walk forward powershield and go for tilts. Sometimes I'll shield pressure with tilts and special cancel into tatsu to punish shield grab. If they're trapped at the ledge I'm finding Bair to be good at setting up walls.

The issue I'm running into is I'm feeling like I'm not able to get as close as I need, and once I get there all they have to do is roll. All I have to do is whiff one utilt and they can roll away.

So I dunno. Focus attack dash cancel in the air is another thing I'm experimenting with but I don't feel super comfortable with it.

I'd like to discuss this further but I'm sleeping soon, so I'll be around later.

Oh, characterwise I'm running into issues with disjoints mostly. Sheik is also very difficult. But I haven't fought a wide range of characters with Ryu yet.
 
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Elessar

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I'm currently also struggling with the Neutral. I feel that approaching is the hardest since I feel like approaching with a hop most timea (specially vs spammers).

I still need to record and upmoad those matches...
 

Emblem Lord

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Ok, so running up to someone then rolling back is not an approach. It's a bait. And a bad one at that since you give up space which is like...every thing Ryu is not about. Ryu IS space control. Run up spot dodge again, just a bait. If you feel you want to roll do a dash in cross up roll behind them.

With Ryu your mentality should shift from attacking their shield to force a defensive response, to establish midrange dominance with pokes and safe footsies.

You keep trying to play him like a pure smash character. He is not. He is a traditional fighting game character in a Smash game. He has elements of his own game and elements of this one.

Do not think about approaching. Think about closing space and setting up an optimal zone where you control the pace of the match. If you want some pure smash approaches then dash behind SH bair is solid. Dash shield cancel d-tilt or d-smash is good. But really you should be focused on limiting options not just ramming shields with your limbs.

Take it slow. Walk alot. ALOT. Lots of empty jumps. Ryu has strong options from empty hops. Hadouken is still a thing. Nair will shut down dash grabs. FADC can draw out responses or you can FA absorb a dash attack then net a crumple combo. If they throw something at you, then you have the option of true tatsu which when timed right can blow through any non counter type attack or trade with other invincible moves.

For that midrange game Shakunetsu and regular hadoukens are your main tools. Hadoukens are good for opponents in the air or SHing, and shakunetsu is good for opponents on the ground. Generally you want slow hadoukens for optimal space control and they will be harder to spot dodge and get around. You wanna force a block for shield damage. This is why Shakunetsu is important. They can powershield the first hit, but not the following hits. You want that shield damage. When they block a few of those they have to then start trying to get around them or they get shield poked for free. Then your neutral game really kicks in. Hasty attacks are easily punished with shoryu out of shield. Bad jump ins fall victim to strong jab. Dash grabbing can be dealt with just by rolling away and resetting your spacing or with short hop nair.

Ryu is pure control, footsies and reaction. Force your will onto the opponent and watch them destroy themselves.

Here is the only video of me so far. It's online and even though there is a little goofing off you can still see alot of the concepts at work.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S4rr0_e2sko
 
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TheHopefulHero

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I think I understand Ryu a lot better now after reading your advice. If understood it correctly, I should focus on being patient and controlling the space my opponent has as Ryu rather than going on the offensive, which reminds me a lot of playing as Shulk or Robin. Once I have that control established, they're going to have to fight if they want some space, and that's when Ryu's combo game and power kicks in. I actually like that style of fighting and I should give it a try rather than going in as a brawler.
 

Elessar

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Ok, so running up to someone then rolling back is not an approach. It's a bait. And a bad one at that since you give up space which is like...every thing Ryu is not about. Ryu IS space control. Run up spot dodge again, just a bait. If you feel you want to roll do a dash in cross up roll behind them.

With Ryu your mentality should shift from attacking their shield to force a defensive response, to establish midrange dominance with pokes and safe footsies.

You keep trying to play him like a pure smash character. He is not. He is a traditional fighting game character in a Smash game. He has elements of his own game and elements of this one.

Do not think about approaching. Think about closing space and setting up an optimal zone where you control the pace of the match. If you want some pure smash approaches then dash behind SH bair is solid. Dash shield cancel d-tilt or d-smash is good. But really you should be focused on limiting options not just ramming shields with your limbs.

Take it slow. Walk alot. ALOT. Lots of empty jumps. Ryu has strong options from empty hops. Hadouken is still a thing. Nair will shut down dash grabs. FADC can draw out responses or you can FA absorb a dash attack then net a crumple combo. If they throw something at you, then you have the option of true tatsu which when timed right can blow through any non counter type attack or trade with other invincible moves.

For that midrange game Shakunetsu and regular hadoukens are your main tools. Hadoukens are good for opponents in the air or SHing, and shakunetsu is good for opponents on the ground. Generally you want slow hadoukens for optimal space control and they will be harder to spot dodge and get around. You wanna force a block for shield damage. This is why Shakunetsu is important. They can powershield the first hit, but not the following hits. You want that shield damage. When they block a few of those they have to then start trying to get around them or they get shield poked for free. Then your neutral game really kicks in. Hasty attacks are easily punished with shoryu out of shield. Bad jump ins fall victim to strong jab. Dash grabbing can be dealt with just by rolling away and resetting your spacing or with short hop nair.

Ryu is pure control, footsies and reaction. Force your will onto the opponent and watch them destroy themselves.

Here is the only video of me so far. It's online and even though there is a little goofing off you can still see alot of the concepts at work.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S4rr0_e2sko
This should be stickied somewhere; it's really great advise. I watched your videos and while I would have some feedback it's more on general smash things not Ryu. I do believe that the way you play neutral is what our current meta should be like.
 

icraq

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@ Emblem Lord Emblem Lord

Just wanted to say I really enjoyed your write up and I appreciate you taking the time to write it out. It's going to remain in my head while I play, we'll see whether it sinks in.

The rest of this post is kind of related but it's more of a tangent.

My first experiences with the character really was that he was a Street Fighter character in a Smash game and trying to play him like a Smash character was an easy way to lose to everyone basically. I had the realization a few days ago the end goal here was to find a way to force Smash characters play Ryu's game, not the other way around. That's been a little tricky, because as you said I'm mostly just trying to bait and punish and not forcing them to make commitments. Ryu isn't really a defensive character here, and he isn't rush down, he can't really zone, he's somewhere in between all these elements in his own little niche.

His movement is also very foreign to smash, I think they knew his movement would be an issue and that's why they have aerial focus attack dashes. Besides learning optimal combos, punishes, I'd say having Ryu's movement options down is one of the most important aspects to playing the character. I have to work on my movement options and be more comfortable with him. I also need to walk a lot more, I dash far too often.
 

keronshb

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It is a really good mindset into trying to force people to act defensively when you're playing as Ryu. It definitely works a lot like SF in that regard: forcing them to do something/faking them out, controlling space, and countering, rather then going for a high combo count. I still think doing the Fire Hadouken > Grab rush works great because you can usually get them most of the time. Mixing up a lot of your reactions also helps baiting them.

For example I found that once I spammed some Hadoukens they always tried to airdodge when they got closer to me/the ground, so then I'd punish with a combo > T. Shoryu.
 

Emblem Lord

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As promised here is my write-up on his traps. These are the ones I use thus far in my game. We may find more, but I consider these a must.

First off, what is a trap? A trap is a situation where the aggressor is in an advantage state such that the defender has limited options. By using certain attacks or taking certain actions in those situations, you can create an offense that is very difficult to get away from unscathed. In some traps the aggressor can even choose an action that MUST be dealt with or the defender will take damage. Choosing a poor response will result in taking damage and often being put into another trap situation or a stock loss. Choosing the correct response to the trap will often leave the aggressor at some type of advantage, usually positional so they lost nothing in attempting the trap. Traps are very high level, and take extensive knowledge of spacing as well as knowing the options of your opposition. Ryu's traps especially are not auto-pilot as he has tons of options for different situations. You have to know which one to use according to the situation, the trap, and your opponent. Read on plz.

Shakunetsu Hadouken Trap

This is Ryu's BnB from the Street Fighter series and it transitions into this game very nicely. This is a trap that occurs as a natural part of Ryu's gameplay because Hadoukens are such a huge part of his game. How the trap works will depend on your spacing as well as the action your opponent takes. To start it, throw a slow Shakunetsu Hadouken when you are about 5 to 6 character lengths away from your opponent. What you do now depends entirely on what they do.

1) If they take the damage from Shakunetsu
a. Re-adjust your spacing and throw another Shakunetsu. Safest and smartest thing to do if you want to press your advantage.
b. Dash in to close space and attempt a grab, dash attack, fair, etc.and transition to another trap.
Option a is of course the safer choice.

2) If they block
a. Throw another Shakunetsu. More shield damage for you

3) If they roll
a. If your spacing is on point, then when they roll they should be right in front of you. Either grab them and throw them back out, poke with strong jab, poke with d-smash or go for light tilt combos into srk. If they roll was late any of these options will be a free punish, but it's also spacing dependent. Throw is decent damage and will transition into another trap situation easily. This is my preferred go to option

4) If they jump
a. You can now choose to play a reactive punish/AA game or try to transition to another trap. Its really up to you and how good your reactions are as well as your opponents options. If you want to go defense, then walk under them and shield. This basically covers anything they might try offensively besides a command grab. If you want to play the AA game then adjust yourself so that Ryu is facing his opponent from the direction of their weakest aerial that has the least amount of coverage below them. This will allow him to challenge with an AA attack much more successfully. So for example vs say Greninja, you will want to be positioned in such a way that dair will whiff if he tries and Fair is a risky option. If he goes for Dair you get a free True Shoryu. Fair is punishable on landing and not safe at all. If you want to challenge them, again you want to challenge where they are weakest in the air. If they are weak from the front then meet them with a Fair or Bair from the front. Same for the back. If they are weak from below, meet them with a Uair. You may wish to attempt a Uair regardless because even if it whiffs Ryu can transition to part 2 of his basic air trap sequence. You may also try to bait a response with a quick jump then fast fall. If they air dodge, get them with a punish. Most likely a bair/fair or a tatsu.

5) If they double jump
a. See number 4, however you may wish to be more aggressive and meet them in the air. Since they now have no second jump a strong hit here may spell your opponents demise.

6) If they attack it to nullify it
a. They will enter recoil hitlag. Feel free to throw another Shakunetsu if you want the safest option. Dash grab can catch them off guard as a mix-up.

7) SH aerial to nullify it
a. Now they have to deal with landing recovery and/or aerial recovery. Throw another. You will more then likely need to re-adjust your spacing.


*Note* When Ryu's opponents jumps in response to Hadouken, this trap can lead to mix-ups between True Shoryu/grab/shield/jab or do nothing. Basically your opponent will have to guess between you attacking or doing nothing. Their options are usually just airdodge to avoid a potential attack or attack in hopes of stuffing a button you choose. Airdodge will beat alot of offense you may try but is very risky. A True Shoryu will beat anything and can cost them a stock at high percents. It's a deadly mix-up that favors Ryu heavily.

Air Trap

Very basic and effective trap. When your opponent is in the air above, chase them with a Uair. From there Ryu gets a nice option tree depending on what happens. Easy set-ups for this trap are from a tatsu on hit, SRK on hit at higher percents, u-throw and d-throw at higher percents. This trap works best on foes with bad dairs that are either slow or have poor hitboxes. The option tree is as follows.

1) If it hits
a. The trap resets itself

2) If they airdodge
a. You can tatsu in their direction and depending on their height, hitbox size and fall speed you will more then likely catch them and reset into another air trap.
b. You may choose a very safe and strong option of fast falling and throwing a hadouken to pressure your opponent and possibly even transition straight into a hadouken trap. You lose no momentum and you risk nothing. Great option.

3) If they jump
a. Fastfall and go for a re-trap.


Air Trap - Hadouken Version

This version of the trap is similar to the Uair trap, but there is less risk involved but also less direct reward. This trap leans more towards space control and more limiting of options. When your opponent is in the air, throw a true slow hadouken at them. For this trap I find regular hadoukens work best, not Shakunetsu. Spacing is essentially the same as it would be for the grounded Hadouken trap. A good set-up for this is after a f-throw.

1) It it hits
a. Throw another. Simple stuff. Dash in for a grab or aerial if you are feeling fancy.

2) If it is airdodged
a. Throw another, but this time throw a Shakunetsu. Easy transition to a ground Hadouken Trap You may have to walk, dash or sh to reset your optimal spacing.
b. If the opponent is close enough, dash grab is a strong option. Fair as well or Tatsu.
c. If your opponent is high enough, you can attempt a Uair air trap or landing trap.


Landing Trap

Strong trap that can lead to a KO or good damage. When an opponent is about SH distance above the ground, do a SH Uair and fast fall after it comes out. This is a great trap to look for at kill percents for Ryu's True SRK at around 95%. This trap works best on opponents with poor or slow dairs. This is another basic trap that can lead to awesome outcomes.

1) If they air dodge
a. Tilt combos into True Shoryu for a KO or damage. Throwing is an ok option or U-smash for nice damage. Dash grab if your spacing was a little off

2) If they get hit by the Uair
a. Reset the trap or transition into a different one.

*Note* The weakness of this trap is that characters with high priority buttons can challenge Ryu. Characters with counters as well. Again though same as the hadouken trap, Ryu has True SRK to keep people honest and blow through w/e button they attempt to use to challenge Ryu. Focus Attack is also another solid option in traps since Ryu doesnt risk much. He can just dash cancel and then grab if his opponent didnt press a button. Or dash away if you are afraid and dont want to risk retaliation.


Ledge trap

Basic trap that everyone in the game has. When your opponent is on the ledge, space yourself just outside of their get-up attack. You have now effectively reduced their options greatly.

1) If they get up attack
a. Dash in True Shoryu or dash grab and throw them off to reset the trap

2) If they roll.
a. Throw them back out or True SRK for the KO

3) If they ledge jump
a. Pick a trap. Any trap. Air trap, Landing trap, Hadouken trap. I prefer to just back up and go for a nice Shakunetsu trap. Ol' reliable. Or Bair/Fair them in the face. W/e works.

4) If they normal get-up
a. Safest option by far. Shakunetsu is a mindlessly safe and easy answer that lets you stay in control. SH back Shakunetsu is most likely what you will want to do. Dash grab if you know they will do this or you know they will shield after climbing back on stage.



Whew. That was alot. I will prolly add more later. I am considering making it into a full fledged guide. Guys, please read this and add it to your game. Your skill level and understanding of the character will dramatically increase I promise you.
 
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Fox Is Openly Deceptive

Smash Detective
Administrator
BRoomer
Joined
Sep 22, 2008
Messages
3,969
Location
WinMelee, Australia
Hey dudes. I found something that I figured I should probably mention just in case you weren't aware of it.

I was just playing around with Ryu while updating the dictionary with all his jargon and I noticed that if you do an AFADC very close to the ground such that you land immediately after, it cancels all roughly 18 frames of lag from the AFADC, so essentially what we're looking at here is an AFADCC :laugh:. Perhaps I should explain what this means if it wasn't already apparent.
For example, if you do an AFADCC and hold shield, there will only be two frames of landing lag in which you are vulnerable, similar to Brawl's airdodge, only of course the FA can only absorb one attack and you can still be grabbed/command-grabbed etc if the opponent reads that you will pick this option (not to mention that you always have the option of simply not cancelling the FA and not being vulnerable during those 2 landing frames unlike the brawl airdodge); but then of course you can also spot dodge or roll two frames after you were in a FA, which is ****ed; or better still, use a FA in the air, continue to hold the special button from here on in, input the two hits sideways with the second hit being used just as you're about to land to get the AFADCC which will allow you to act immediately, then use this second sideways input that just cancelled the FA to start a true shoryuken (side, down, diagonally down) and then release the special button that you've been holding this whole time to activate it (i.e. a negative edge). This and much more can also be done using either the height of the BF side platforms to do a FH FA (cancelling it just after the apex and immediately landing on the platform) or while returning to stage from the ledge with a DJ FA.

Anyway I see potential in this, so there you go.
 

Darkmoone1

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jun 16, 2015
Messages
155
Anyone have an answer on how to beat Luigi? Because I'm really struggling going against this character no matter who's behind the controller. :(
 

Elessar

Nouyons TO
Joined
Apr 20, 2010
Messages
2,624
Location
Paraguay
NNID
Veritiel
3DS FC
3711-8466-0515
Anyone have an answer on how to beat Luigi? Because I'm really struggling going against this character no matter who's behind the controller. :(
I'd suggest checking the MU thread or asking the question there since it's more of a MU topic than a general Metagame one.
 

BlueBirdE

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Mar 27, 2008
Messages
252
any potential with using side b, true tatsu towards the ledge and holding down to edgeguard? I imagine it can hit some recoveries and if not you can let go of down to grab the ledge and trump them.
also focus as an edge guard off stage? maybe against a character like ness's tackle?
 

DisidisiD

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Feb 21, 2015
Messages
271
Something I really like is using FA a small distance from the ledge. It can cover everything but drop off, staying on the ledge, and jump (it can cover jump but... its hard. You have to know they are going to jump and it will only be an aerial version.). I've begun using it to try to condition opponents to jump get up. Then, at kill percents, SH Dair spike. Death.
 
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