Meta "The Saikyo Dojo" Ryu Metagame Discussion.

[DisidisiD]

I've repeatedly tried to do jump canceled TSRKs by inputing the SRK motion -> jump -> B button before I leave the ground. You cannot jump cancel TSRK, this always gives you an aerial TSRK instead.

I think I noted this somewhere else on the boards but I'm happy that someone else has verified this.

EDIT: lol wait. I'm not happy. I wanted to be wrong. Dang it.

 

[Pippin (Peregrin Took)]

So I'm working on my ryu techniques and can pull off true hadokens and tatsumakis consistently now, but still having trouble with the true shoryuken. I've got a couple questions:

1) which of the control stick inputs is the easiest to pull off and does the controller matter? I mainly use 2ds/pro but have considered switching back to GameCube because of the octagon around the control stick.

2) is there a best time for me to do the inputs so I don't rush and not pull it off so much?

 

[John12346]

This has been bugging me for the longest time, the title is misspelled. It should be Saikyo, not Sakiyo.

We must honor the legendary art developed by Dan the Man Hibiki.

Also, and this is just an aside, but why isn't the subtitle for the MU Thread "Here Comes a New Challenger!" ???

 

[Z1GMA]

What attacks/traps/punishes do you guys normally use when you've trumped your opponent and they regrab the ledge?
Also, what are the best attacks to use in this scenario without going off stage?

 

[PokemonyeWest]

What attacks/traps/punishes do you guys normally use when you've trumped your opponent and they regrab the ledge?
Also, what are the best attacks to use in this scenario without going off stage?

Down smash is usually my go to when they regrab the ledge and I stay on stage. I think it's the only move that can hit below the ledge. Going off stage, Back Air is your best choice.

 

[Z1GMA]

Down smash is usually my go to when they regrab the ledge and I stay on stage. I think it's the only move that can hit below the ledge. Going off stage, Back Air is your best choice.

I use Dsmash as well sometimes, but I feel it's a missed opportunity. Dair (on stage) only hits a few characters :/

 

[LittlePac]

if they recover too high you can F tilt them and sometimes the hit stun is long enough to spike them after, or at least follow up with a fair

 

[DisidisiD]

if they recover too high you can F tilt them and sometimes the hit stun is long enough to spike them after, or at least follow up with a fair

Ftilt doesn't link to anything.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Ftilt doesn't link to anything.

oh ho!!!

Light ftilt does indeed link into follow-ups at certain percents.

 

[DisidisiD]

oh ho!!!

Light ftilt does indeed link into follow-ups at certain percents.

Could you give an example? There arent any that I can think of at the top of my head.

 

[Z1GMA]

Well, if they DI towards you, it's Super Easy to follow up f1.
You can use this when your opponent has used a punishable attack close to the ledge and they know you'll be able to punish them with one of your quicker attacks, thus making them DI towards you
This way, Ryu can take asvantage of good DI - good DI becomes bad.

Also, it's easy to follow up f1 on moving platforms like the one of Smash Ville.
At 0% it even comboes into it self like three times this way, plus an additional follow-up or two.

 

[Trifroze]

I've noticed no one seems to use heavy jab as an anti-air, why is this? It comes out f9, does 10% and is a pseudo kill move, has a lot of range and a considerable disjoint, and doesn't extend Ryu's hurtbox before the hitbox comes out. I get that fair can be more favorable of a trade, but this move should outright beat opponents jumping at you with or without aerials. Pretty safe on shield as well (can't be dashgrabbed except by the likes of Falcon) so baiting isn't really a thing for the opponent.

 

[Emblem Lord]

By no one you mean Trela and 9B correct? Search my vids on youtube. I do it alot.

It will not beat Diddy fair btw or Mario Bair just in case you try it vs them. Not consistently anyway. Same with Doc and Luigi.

 

[WD40]

I've noticed no one seems to use heavy jab as an anti-air, why is this? It comes out f9, does 10% and is a pseudo kill move, has a lot of range and a considerable disjoint, and doesn't extend Ryu's hurtbox before the hitbox comes out. I get that fair can be more favorable of a trade, but this move should outright beat opponents jumping at you with or without aerials. Pretty safe on shield as well (can't be dashgrabbed except by the likes of Falcon) so baiting isn't really a thing for the opponent.

I never really use it until the opponent is around 120% which is when the heavy jab starts killing, depending on the character, stage, and situation obviously. It's a great, safe, surprise kill option that people don't expect coming at all. I agree, I never see any of the top Ryu players (Trela, 9B, Mr. R) use it.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Gonna be real the top Ryu players all have under developed ground game. But thats is most likely the result of coming from a Smash background so the idea of developing a ground game besides one based on combos is probably somewhat foreign to them. Give it time.

 

[WD40]

Gonna be real the top Ryu players all have under developed ground game. But thats is most likely the result of coming from a Smash background so the idea of developing a ground game besides one based on combos is probably somewhat foreign to them. Give it time.

Agreed, there is a lot of room for refinement. Their aerial game however is on point. Being able to accurately read an opponents DI is key, and the top players are all good at that.

 

[Geno Boost]

i made this before but this time i did animate this

 

[miniada]

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...oMZlbJXqKPtHEBFgA&sig2=OHzFOGOVeQxIFmXRTnMFZg we are discussing ryu at the mario boards and would love your input.

 

[Deezxnutz]

What do you guys do as an OoS when the opponent crosses up your shield? I assume unless it's not laggy at all you can only do turnaround to LJab or LUtilt

 

[iLink]

What do you guys do as an OoS when the opponent crosses up your shield? I assume unless it's not laggy at all you can only do turnaround to LJab or LUtilt

Depends on the character size and what attack they used. Can try Nair OoS if they are big enough or just a reverse UpB even. If I have enough time to drop my shield and turn around to do a LUtilt, I'd probably go with that.

 

[Deezxnutz]

Also regarding shield pressure I think I recall someone saying if you do cr.lks/LDtilts fast enough they can't shield grab you and you can hit a roll attempt?

I don't know what else to do with Ryu's pressure though besides occasionally sneak in a Collarbone Breaker, run back to pivot Fsmash and grab.

 

[DisidisiD]

Also regarding shield pressure I think I recall someone saying if you do cr.lks/LDtilts fast enough they can't shield grab you and you can hit a roll attempt?

I don't know what else to do with Ryu's pressure though besides occasionally sneak in a Collarbone Breaker, run back to pivot Fsmash and grab.

I have said that it can catch roll attempts before but I'm not 100% sure they can't roll out. But it is very unlikely they can. There may be a 1 or 2 frame window in which they can and won't get caught.

 

[Deezxnutz]

I have said that it can catch roll attempts before but I'm not 100% sure they can't roll out. But it is very unlikely they can. There may be a 1 or 2 frame window in which they can and won't get caught.

Tested on Fox, cannot roll out until they get pushed back far enough which would be about 4 blocked cr.lks. As for being shield grabbed I got grabbed after one but any range outside his grab range and he'll get hit instead.

Also is there a way to do walking Utilts without a C-stick? 3ds user myself.

 

[DisidisiD]

Tested on Fox, cannot roll out until they get pushed back far enough which would be about 4 blocked cr.lks. As for being shield grabbed I got grabbed after one but any range outside his grab range and he'll get hit instead.

Also is there a way to do walking Utilts without a C-stick? 3ds user myself.

I believe its possible but its hard.
also, could you test if LDtilt shield pokes?
And does it move ryu back or forward after repeated use?

Wait... roll invincibility starts F3ish. How can you grab (F6ish) but not roll?

 

[Deezxnutz]

I believe its possible but its hard.
also, could you test if LDtilt shield pokes?
And does it move ryu back or forward after repeated use?

Wait... roll invincibility starts F3ish. How can you grab (F6ish) but not roll?

LDtilt does indeed shield poke and Ryu gets pushed back with each cr.lk on block.

Now that I'm not so sure, I guess I could test again when I get a human opponent to play with again but I know for sure I was mashing cr.lk on shield and my friend was mashing shield grab after one poke.

 

[Deezxnutz]

One thing I've been doing lately to catch those who roll towards me is I'll jump backwards then do Fair/J.MK. J.Mk has a crossup hitbox true to Street Fighter so when I successfully catch a roll with it they'll get hit by the sourspot part of the move thus I can follow up according to DI.

I like using Fair in general during neutral because its active for a decent while, good knockback, pretty safe on shield when spaced and little lag on the move.

 

[WD40]

One thing I've been doing lately to catch those who roll towards me is I'll jump backwards then do Fair/J.MK. J.Mk has a crossup hitbox true to Street Fighter so when I successfully catch a roll with it they'll get hit by the sourspot part of the move thus I can follow up according to DI.

I like using Fair in general during neutral because its active for a decent while, good knockback, pretty safe on shield when spaced and little lag on the move.

Yeah, drag down fairs with the lasting hitbox is super useful. What are you referencing by J.Mk? I assume it is SF terminology for jumping medium kick?

 

[Deezxnutz]

Yeah, drag down fairs with the lasting hitbox is super useful. What are you referencing by J.Mk? I assume it is SF terminology for jumping medium kick?

Yup that's correct

 

[Deezxnutz]

So I just had a quick idea that I'm gonna put into practice in my future matches regarding ledge guarding. I feel like Tatsu on the edge may beat anything the opponent will do like jump (confirmed in training since AI always ledge jumps), ledge attack, normal get up and ledge drop to aerial. As for roll we can simply read it and blow it with dash attack, SRK, grab, etc.

Update: it lost to Link's ledge attack, oh well

 

[Deezxnutz]

I believe its possible but its hard.
also, could you test if LDtilt shield pokes?
And does it move ryu back or forward after repeated use?

Wait... roll invincibility starts F3ish. How can you grab (F6ish) but not roll?

I figured it out. So I read the frame data on this google doc and LDtilt is -10 on Shield OoS and since Fox's grab is 6f it's a true punish

Source:https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/12a9yZTmAUrL17sL6BQC4DJiKUVN1s3jxsOlzBuyZdMo/htmlview#

 

[DisidisiD]

I figured it out. So I read the frame data on this google doc and LDtilt is -10 on Shield OoS and since Fox's grab is 6f it's a true punish

Source:https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/12a9yZTmAUrL17sL6BQC4DJiKUVN1s3jxsOlzBuyZdMo/htmlview#

not exactly. that number is when you can do another move after ldtilt. like jab. however, ldtilt cancels into itself. The -10 is using the earlier number, F12. Change it to the Iasa frame, 7, and you get a value of -5 on shield.[/QUOTE]

 

[Deezxnutz]

not exactly. that number is when you can do another move after ldtilt. like jab. however, ldtilt cancels into itself. The -10 is using the earlier number, F12. Change it to the Iasa frame, 7, and you get a value of -5 on shield.

[/QUOTE]

Ohhhhh I see so in this scenario if I were to LDtilt again his grab would beat me because I'm in negative frames? And in this case could we probably spotdodge in time for any OoS option he does next?

 

[an1bal]

So ive started adding a dropzone rising tatsu for edgeuard. Caught a few people of guard who like to recover hugging the wall or below the stage.

 

[Jiggly]

Hey guys! The Jigglypuff boards are doing the Ryu MU atm, I was hoping some people experienced in the Matchup could give some input! I hope to see you guys there!

 

[Emblem Lord]

Post up a link my good man?

 

[Jiggly]

Post up a link my good man?

*facepalms* Dammit, I'm sorry. I copied the link and everything. My Crtl+V game is slippin tonight

http://smashboards.com/threads/poke...glypuff-matchup-thread-discussing-ryu.384478/

 

[Norr]

Down smash is usually my go to when they regrab the ledge and I stay on stage. I think it's the only move that can hit below the ledge. Going off stage, Back Air is your best choice.

Just some random useless input to an old conversation because I labbed this once upon a time.

Ryu's Downsmash is pretty reliable for hitting characters on ledge. That being said though, theres 2 catches.

Note: Percentages are estimates, since I only labbed this on half the cast.

1. Against most of the cast, Ryu must hit the Dsmash with his FOOT, not his leg. His leg's hitbox doesn't go low enough

2. Against about 5-10% of the cast, Dsmash will NOT hit the enemy at any point of the hitbox.

The solution to point #2 if you still want to hit them from onstage is hard down tilt.

H-Dtilt will hit, to my knowledge every character except Ganondorf. There may be more characters it won't hit but I'm not aware of them, as checking my old notes, I did every character from left to right going down the CSS until Duck Hunt.

Fun fact about ledge hits:

On 7+ characters, you can hit soft down tilt while they hold the ledge.
(I noticed this on Mario, Luigi, Yoshi, Bowser Jr, DK, G+W, ZSS)

I don't think soft down tilt has a specific hitbox like Dsmash in this case, I couldn't tell.

This is fun because of the Ledge Denial tech. They cannot grab the ledge for 50 frames after you hit them, and the hit has minimal knockback so they're still near the ledge. By doing this you effectively limit their options to just 3:

1. Up-B past the ledge
2. Jump over the ledge
3. Wait, fall, and then recover again.

The best part is if they try the jump option. If they try jumping, just spam soft down tilt again. BOOM. Now they only have 2 options.

Please debate any of this if you've found contradicting cases to what I've found, I'm just a lazy smash 4 player that recently picked up Ryu. Also I know the soft down tilt spiel is very Matchup specific, and not incredibly useful across the cast, but if someone's looking for extreme measures for optimization, this could help.

 

[WD40]

Just some random useless input to an old conversation because I labbed this once upon a time.

Ryu's Downsmash is pretty reliable for hitting characters on ledge. That being said though, theres 2 catches.

Note: Percentages are estimates, since I only labbed this on half the cast.

1. Against most of the cast, Ryu must hit the Dsmash with his FOOT, not his leg. His leg's hitbox doesn't go low enough

2. Against about 5-10% of the cast, Dsmash will NOT hit the enemy at any point of the hitbox.

The solution to point #2 if you still want to hit them from onstage is hard down tilt.

H-Dtilt will hit, to my knowledge every character except Ganondorf. There may be more characters it won't hit but I'm not aware of them, as checking my old notes, I did every character from left to right going down the CSS until Duck Hunt.

Fun fact about ledge hits:

On 7+ characters, you can hit soft down tilt while they hold the ledge.
(I noticed this on Mario, Luigi, Yoshi, Bowser Jr, DK, G+W, ZSS)

I don't think soft down tilt has a specific hitbox like Dsmash in this case, I couldn't tell.

This is fun because of the Ledge Denial tech. They cannot grab the ledge for 50 frames after you hit them, and the hit has minimal knockback so they're still near the ledge. By doing this you effectively limit their options to just 3:

1. Up-B past the ledge
2. Jump over the ledge
3. Wait, fall, and then recover again.

The best part is if they try the jump option. If they try jumping, just spam soft down tilt again. BOOM. Now they only have 2 options.

Please debate any of this if you've found contradicting cases to what I've found, I'm just a lazy smash 4 player that recently picked up Ryu. Also I know the soft down tilt spiel is very Matchup specific, and not incredibly useful across the cast, but if someone's looking for extreme measures for optimization, this could help.

What characters will Ryus dsmash never hit? (that 5-10% you mention)

I like the idea of the ledge trap with the light dtilt. It may only work in those MUs, but Mario, Luigi, Yoshi, and ZSS are all common tournament characters.

Gonna have to mess around with heavy dtilt at the ledge more. I suck at hitting with the dsmash and feel like I'm wasting time when I go for it.

 

[Norr]

Here! I decided to actually finish the list I talked about having half complete.

I don't play Street Fighter, so I don't really understand the notation commonly used for Ryu's moves. I'm sure my naming for them make sense though.

Characters that can be hit by Light Down Tilt, Hard Down Tilt and Down Smash (at any distance):

Mario
Luigi
Doctor Mario
Yoshi
Bowser Jr
DK
Game and Watch
Zero Suit Samus
Pikachu
Charizard
Jigglypuff
Olimar
Mewtwo
Rob*
Villager*
Ness**
Lucas**
Lucario***
King Dedede***
Wii Fit Trainer****
Bayonetta*****

* - Hitbox while hanging on ledge is deceiving. Can't hit their hands, you hit their heads instead.
** - Ness and Lucas' Idle animation on ledge can negate the use of light down tilt, probably a 50% chance of hitting
*** - Lucario and Dedede can only be hit by the foot of soft down tilt
**** - WFT is similar to Ness and Lucas, but it fluctuates more. If her head is up, you ca hit anything, if its down, you can only hit with the foot of Downsmash or Hard down tilt
***** Bayo is similar to Dedede and Lucario, but the spacing of Ryu's foot is really strict


Characters that can only be hit by Strong Down Tilt or Down Smash (At any Distance):

Bowser
Rosa
Wario
Falco
Ryu
Duck Hunt


Characters that can only be hit by Hard Down Tilt or the Foot hitbox of Down Smash:

Peach
Diddy
Little Mac
Link
Zelda
Sheik
Toon Link
Samus
Pit
Dark Pit
Palutena
Kirby
Fox
Captain Falcon
Shulk
PacMan
MegaMan
Roy
Marth
Lucina
Ike
Robin
Cloud
Corrin


Special Cases:

Greninja Can only be hit by Strong Down Tilt

Ganondorf and Sonic can't get hit by any grounded moves by Ryu


What do these lists mean?

-Two posts above I theorized a ledge frame trap, and I thought just a few more than 7 characters could get hit by it. Now we know that its possible on 21 characters of the cast, mind that on 6 Characters its a bit risky whether or not you'll hit it.

-If you default using the foot of down smash at the ledge for punishing holding the ledge too long, there's only 3 characters that will not work on.

-If you aren't great at spacing down smash for this punish, hard down tilt is much more reliable, and doesn't have tricky spacing to land a hit. This attack also has the potential of starting the frame trap at lower percents if immediately followed by soft down tilts at the ledge


I think the reason why the foot of down smash is finicky in this experiment is because the foot's hitbox is swinging around in the downsmash from behind him, where with the Hard Downtilt to sweeps across the floor. More coverage I guess?

 

[DisidisiD]

Does anyone know how many frames A must be held in order to get a heavy tilt? Specials?