The problem with Brawl: It's Community

[DarkKnight077]

No johns. : P

 

[kin3tic-c4jun-3]

There are people here arguing when they do not understand what playing to win is.

And as for the community sucking? Yeah, it has been lately. This is a forum for people seeking to improve their Smash game. It used to be about going to tournaments, reading up strategies on these boards, and then applying it to your game.

Now, people come here to argue, criticize, and banter back and forth. When the exclusive Smash community is unwilling to LEARN what WINNING is, where do I go to get my strats??

Honestly, if you are a casual, why bother going to forums like this? You really don't need to.

 

[Problem2]

I'm not going to dive into the play to win argument vs the honor argument as everyone so far has taken words and arranged them to mean something different from what they intended before they attack them.

But what I want to say is that our community is already fighting an uphill battle. First of all, half of our own community is bashing Brawl and saying that Melee is superior and these people want nothing to do with it, yet major tournament hosts like MLG and EVO want to push for Brawl simply because its newer. If the constant threads about Melee/Brawl comparisons and general nagging continues, the strain is going to drive people away and eventually we will all be left with no major tournaments (none of today's caliber anways).

The communities other problem: We tend to be very VERY VERRRRY uninviting to newer players. Like it or not, the community needs newer players to join to replace the number of players that eventually leave for whatever reason. I understand that the pros of Melee have taught many of us that "honor" gets you nothing but defeat etc., but lets leave the "hold nothing back" and "play to win" mindsets in the game itself. Your opponent is going to know that you're holding nothing back when you infinite chain grab them, knock them off stage and then gimp them at 50%, but you then can turn to your opponent and comment them on a job well done. You can tell them what's wrong with their playing style of course, but "You suck! You should stop playing this game" won't help their game at all. Most players are already trying their hardest to become good at the game and your fighting and ruthless words are not helping.

The community needs to transfer this general ideology and apply it to their thread making as well. Not every post needs to contain a personal attack, even if what you say is true, the truth can STILL hurt. Harsh critiquing shouldn't hurt a player, but telling a person that they need to work on spacing doesn't require the word scrub used in the sentence.

Do any of you ever get a headache from reading these arguments all the time or is just me?

 

[kin3tic-c4jun-3]

Personally, I have never seen someone insult another for simply asking a question on these boards. I have personally asked really dumb questions about Melee in the past (quite a few), and I was supported totally. I think that what you're saying is rather outlandish, but I agree regardless.

 

[DarkKnight077]

And plus I bet you were a Melee scrub Mr. OP.

 

[GriN]

I know some boards that are way way worse than this one...

Btw first post

 

[blooagga]

heres how i see it.

Smash being popular with all ages has lots of little kids playing it.

little kids = noobs

noobs are fun to pick on

smash bros players get used to calling everyone noobs.
It truly does give you sick pleasure to tell a noob he sucks...

 

[SynikaL]

Aren't you just so witty and sharp, maybe you should go read up some, rather than trying to show off in front of the "kids".

Umm...


Yo momma?


Seriously, that's gotta be the weakest personal insult the internet has given birth to.

"Why don't you go read a book smart guy?!"


-Kye
(in fact, i think i will)

 

[dr0go]

WHY fight between ourselves.lets blame sakurai for making ness and lucas the way they are getting chaingrabbed and all.its all his fault if i were you i would make a sakurai insult thread it would be so funny.**** right.wtf

on a different topic this guy is right community is the problem.I mean come on community sucks at playing brawl.

yes i am bored.

 

[Rebel581]

Yup you were right, even at the end he goes on to explain that hes not talking down to scrubs hes simply explaing how one does simply not know how to play on a competitive level.

0_o Holy crap. Being nice and considerate when giving my opinion actually changed someone's mind or made them listen to me? I should try this more often. I'm glad you bothered to read the article.

This lack of maturity manifests itself in the actual products (Bioshock = Art? No.).

Pause. What was your problem with the game? I'll be honest, I haven't completed it yet because I'm in school and need to concentrate on school work. And then when I have free time, I've got other games I like to play too. Bioshock requires me to sit down and decide I'm going to play that game for a couple of hours, which I generally can't do. But what is wrong with Bioshock and being considered art? Did you think Shadow of the Colossus wasn't art either (although tbqh, I think SotC is more art than Bioshock)?

 

[Yuna]

Congratulations! You are living proof of this fellow's example. Rather than constructively disagreeing or anything even moderately amiable, you tear him to pieces. ~85% of this community is the same way. Ironic that you tried so hard to disagree with him, and ultimately ended up proving him right. I salute you.

Should I care? The guy's an idiot.

I think that your inability to reasonably, or intelligently defend your point is a sad sight indeed. But please don't go spouting off about how a thread should be closed simply because you disagree with it. Learn to cope with other people, nothing in life is spoon fed to you, so let's grow up a little bit.

If a scrub was always a scrub then no one would be considered good or elite, because that is where we all start. But why am I explaining this to you? Since you're obviously well-learnt in the habits of scrubs.

Scrub =/= Newbie

Not all players started out as Scrubs. At my first tournament (a very friendly one with very few participants, a token prize and Single Elimination), I lost to a Captain Falcon who chaingrabbed my Peach into Fair repeatedly. What did I do? Try to come up with counter-strategies and trained to become better.

I had only been playing Smash for 3 days. And my spontaneous reacting was "I'll try to get better at this game and be able to beat that strategy one day!".

But competitive play is only really competitive if it's fair. You can play to win, but most games are built around the concept that the competition should be as unbiased as possible for each competitor.

All we have to do is weed out this one measly chain grab, and bam! Two characters are playable, giving more options for competitive play, and everyone is happy.

Because that's how the game is. Did we ban chaingrabbing the Fastfallers in Melee (something half the cast could do)? Did we ban Sheik's chaingrab on half the cast (and dthrow into Bair/Uair on almost everyone else)? Did we ban the Ken-combo which ended in a Spike in PAL (which worked on literally everyone)?

Ness and Lucas are meant to be chaingrabbable by a few characters because of the way the game is programmed. Live with it. Or stop being a hypocrite and advocate the banning of all infinites. It's either banning all or none.

 

[Leahdybug]

Thanks

0_o Holy crap. Being nice and considerate when giving my opinion actually changed someone's mind or made them listen to me? I should try this more often. I'm glad you bothered to read the article.

Thanks, its real easy ain't it, but really thanks two seconds of hey your really should read this for *insert reason here* does help a person rather then hey your a ****ing idiot do this.

 

[Endless Nightmares]

lol this is from GameFAQs

Yes, Brawl is community. >_>

 

[BigRick]

lol this is from GameFAQs

Yes, Brawl is community. >_>

omglol I thought the same thing

 

[The Executive]

Ness and Lucas are meant to be chaingrabbable by a few characters because of the way the game is programmed. Live with it. Or stop being a hypocrite and advocate the banning of all infinites. It's either banning all or none.

Most other infinites have an eventual stopping point because of an external condition (reaching the end of a stage, not in the correct % range, etc.). THIS NEVER ENDS. With the campy playstyle prevalent in Brawl getting shield-grabbed is inevitable and Ness and Lucas if this exploit is sanctioned will be dropped from competitive play entirely because no one wants to go into a tournament expecting to have a good time and possibly win something only to be eliminated by a jerk who takes advantage of programming oversights.

 

[Yuna]

Most other infinites have an eventual stopping point because of an external condition (reaching the end of a stage, not in the correct % range, etc.). THIS NEVER ENDS. With the campy playstyle prevalent in Brawl getting shield-grabbed is inevitable and Ness and Lucas if this exploit is sanctioned will be dropped from competitive play entirely because no one wants to go into a tournament expecting to have a good time and possibly win something only to be eliminated by a jerk who takes advantage of programming oversights.

I'm sorry, what? Infinites never end. Infinites that can be used to stall out the entire match are banned past 999% because of stalling (though I think it should be lowered to 300% because you're guaranteed to die there, anyway).

The same logic can be applied here. It's OK to grab release infinite Lucas and Ness 'til they reach a given % (300 or 999), just like it's OK to wobble people 'til they reach 999%. Most people will stop wobbling (and any other infinite) you once you reach KO-percentage because they don't want to risk screwing up and instead go for the guaranteed KO.

This infinite is not new. There are plenty other infinites that are either true infinites requiring no setup or wall-infinites in existence already. We just regulate at which point they have to end.

 

[kainzero]

The communities other problem: We tend to be very VERY VERRRRY uninviting to newer players. Like it or not, the community needs newer players to join to replace the number of players that eventually leave for whatever reason. I understand that the pros of Melee have taught many of us that "honor" gets you nothing but defeat etc., but lets leave the "hold nothing back" and "play to win" mindsets in the game itself. Your opponent is going to know that you're holding nothing back when you infinite chain grab them, knock them off stage and then gimp them at 50%, but you then can turn to your opponent and comment them on a job well done. You can tell them what's wrong with their playing style of course, but "You suck! You should stop playing this game" won't help their game at all. Most players are already trying their hardest to become good at the game and your fighting and ruthless words are not helping.

The community needs to transfer this general ideology and apply it to their thread making as well. Not every post needs to contain a personal attack, even if what you say is true, the truth can STILL hurt. Harsh critiquing shouldn't hurt a player, but telling a person that they need to work on spacing doesn't require the word scrub used in the sentence.

Do any of you ever get a headache from reading these arguments all the time or is just me?

It's not THAT uninviting.
I'm new to these boards. I mess around on GD but just like every other board, it's mostly useless.

If I went to regional threads, people are always looking for others to Smash, and there's plenty of opportunities to play Melee or Brawl or whatever at tournaments or casuals.

IRL, people are willing to work with others when it's obvious that the noob shows potential. Help those who know how to help themselves. We're all grown men and women, we don't have time to mess around and hand-hold and teach people things they could learn by themselves. Whenever I played any fighting game, I would learn techniques at home and test it out by playing others.

As for commenting or telling someone how to improve, I never liked that unless I specifically ask someone to critique me. I've had a bunch of people come up to me in the gym and tell me my form was wrong and proceed to demo even worse form (as an example. I don't have a fighting game example right now). Plus it's kinda insulting for a stranger to do it because it seems a bit cocky and ego-driven.

The whole playing to win vs. honor stuff kinda makes me chuckle. Every time I get hit by my brother's chain throw I wanna turn around and throw my controller at him but that won't really help me win next time. =)

I also think balance in a game is overrated. Starcraft only has 3 "characters". Chess and Go have 1 "character". As long as the underlying game is fun, who cares how many characters you can or can't use? Marvel has been going strong for a long time now and it has to have one of the most well defined tiers in existence.

 

[DuskMarthWater]

There is a difference between being completely unhelpful(ie a jerk) and giving out negative criticism. Many on these boards do not know the difference, mostly because they think they're good and they're really not.

All this talk of infinites and 'ending infinites????'(WTF?) is what we've been saying. If you're not ready to encounter people using chain-grabs or some types of infinites like the IC's wobbling, then you're not ready to play the game competitively. 'Nuff said.

Now SwampFox's original argument is what this thread is about right? Ok first off...the play to win attitude. If you play this game competitively then you will always possess a certain level of this attitude. And when you say that they take advantage of cheap tactics to win, well...there is no such thing as a cheap tactic in this game. Most things are legal, so if you cannot handle people using them to win, you are not a competitive smasher yourself. And when people care about the game, they have fun playing it, which I'm quite certain most players on these boards do enjoy smash. But they enjoy playing it competitively. And when you say that having a better attitude towards making the game more fun for everyone is good...that will never happen. People who play competitively will always look for ways to get better and face off against one another, so therefore it is impossible for the game to be more fun for everyone. Not all people can keep up with these people, nor do they necessarily want to. There will always be the group of better players and the group of lesser players, it's just how life works. Some people play Smash with friends, items, banned stages, etc. because that's their way of having fun with it. People on these boards are all here for one purpose: to get better and learn more about the game. How someone chooses to respond to a question is all up to that person. If people respond to someone with a witty retort or a stupid comment, either someone asked a really dumb question and people are irritated with responding to the same thing over and over again, or they're trying to have some fun with their day and post something funny. If you get flamed on these boards, chances are you're asking for it, because not everyone is as patient as others. Hope that helps mate.

 

[SiegKnight]

There is a difference between being completely unhelpful(ie a jerk) and giving out negative criticism. Many on these boards do not know the difference, mostly because they think they're good and they're really not.

YES. A THOUWSAND TIMES yes.

 

[FeArTeHsMaSh]

Hmm.

SwampFox:

The smash community has had the "playing to win" mentality since Isai was pwning in 64 (most likely before that). That's what makes this site so great actually.

Just wanted to point that out to other would-be complainers and topic creators who don't know that "playing to win" is what made Melee successful, despite gamers from other fighting games denouncing Melee for being too "kiddish".

And yes, too bad for Ness and Lucas. But same could be said for all of the bottom Tier in Melee. Now Ness and Lucas are just bottom tier for a different reason (chaingrab fodder), rather than being bottom tier for completely sucking.

The problem with Brawl is not the community: the problem with Brawl is Brawl. Its sad to see all the hard work dedicated players and tournament organizers put into establishing Melee as a competitive fighting game (along the lines of MvC2, SF3, etc) go to waste with a slightly inferior sequel.

But blaming the community? SwampFox, you should be ashamed. Enjoy the flames (and that goes to those who agree with his position as well).

 

[BigRick]

The problem with Brawl is not the community: the problem with Brawl is Brawl.

quoted for truth

the game is good, but if the game was better then ppl would just stfu and play it

 

[DarkRenji]

Sakurai thinks all of you are winners. ;D

 

[SiegKnight]

thanks sakurai. I think I'm a winner too.

 

[Leahdybug]

Sakurai thinks all of you are winners. ;D

This made me chuckle.

 

[DuskMarthWater]

Oh...the true irony of that statement. It's great.

 

[MuraRengan]

I came into this topic thinkling that TC was going to talk about how all the Brawl noobs are coming around trying to take over with their incorrect, uneducated, and and outright ******* statements about "glitches" and "exploits" and whatnot, but I see that TC is just another one of them.

For the record, the "elitists" are being jerks because they're tired of noobs telling them them thet they're cheaters and glitchers and so on.

Account created: Apr 2008. Indeed.

 

[The Executive]

I'm sorry, what? Infinites never end. Infinites that can be used to stall out the entire match are banned past 999% because of stalling (though I think it should be lowered to 300% because you're guaranteed to die there, anyway).

The same logic can be applied here. It's OK to grab release infinite Lucas and Ness 'til they reach a given % (300 or 999), just like it's OK to wobble people 'til they reach 999%. Most people will stop wobbling (and any other infinite) you once you reach KO-percentage because they don't want to risk screwing up and instead go for the guaranteed KO.

This infinite is not new. There are plenty other infinites that are either true infinites requiring no setup or wall-infinites in existence already. We just regulate at which point they have to end.

Sorry. For whatever reason, my brain was equating chain grab with infinite...bleh.

 

[Pabs]

There should just be a patch released to fix the broken/exploitable aspects of the game, namely chain grabbing. It's one thing to play to win, and it's another to play using a cheap tactic and calling it creative use of advanced techniques to win. There's nothing advanced about hitting 1 button, I taught my 8 year old niece how to chain grab with falco.

Abusing bs glitches in Brawl in a competitive scene sad, and anyone who defends the use of it should be ashamed, plain and simple.

 

[MuraRengan]

Pabs, most of these new advanced techs are being "discovered" by brawl noobs who barely know what the word means.

 

[SwampFox]

Should I care? The guy's an idiot.


Scrub =/= Newbie

Not all players started out as Scrubs. At my first tournament (a very friendly one with very few participants, a token prize and Single Elimination), I lost to a Captain Falcon who chaingrabbed my Peach into Fair repeatedly. What did I do? Try to come up with counter-strategies and trained to become better.

I had only been playing Smash for 3 days. And my spontaneous reacting was "I'll try to get better at this game and be able to beat that strategy one day!".

I was told to read the Sirlin teachings that you all adhere to, and I did, and that's what he said, so deal with it. Everyone starts as a scrub, even you.

Yuna, I have been reading up a bit and I must say that a large majority of your posts are quite rude, or somehow sexually oriented. It has become quite apparent that you aswell as many others think very highly of themselves, and quite the opposite of others. In honesty I don't appreciate your calling me an idiot, nor the people who respond in my topic cows or other rude, derogatory names. Stop using your "sex" as a tool to win over sexually deprived nerds, and grow up.

 

[DuskMarthWater]

Hmmm...abusing glitches. You see...most people do not use infinites because they can't, the stage choice or character choice won't allow it. Therefore, they are not using a moveset that is impossible to avoid or get out of. Using advanced techs is simply how the higher class players play, and they are not cheap. I don't want to explain this anymore...see ya.

I've never read the teaching of Sirlin. Whatever.

 

[SiegKnight]

Do you want to search for 'scrub' on ebay?

 

[Toadster5]

The problem with Brawl is that it sucks and it's boring.

 

[selendrile]

It's hard to read through all the scrubness.

 

[MuraRengan]

Toadster wins

 

[dj_pwn1423]

The problem with Brawl is that it sucks and it's boring.

please don't start.

 

[Yuna]

I was told to read the Sirlin teachings that you all adhere to, and I did, and that's what he said, so deal with it. Everyone starts as a scrub, even you.

No he didn't. He never said "everyone starts out as a scrub"... and I'm a living example of someone who was never a scrub.

Yuna, I have been reading up a bit and I must say that a large majority of your posts are quite rude, or somehow sexually oriented. It has become quite apparent that you aswell as many others think very highly of themselves, and quite the opposite of others. In honesty I don't appreciate your calling me an idiot, nor the people who respond in my topic cows or other rude, derogatory names. Stop using your "sex" as a tool to win over sexually deprived nerds, and grow up.

1) Not being nice =/= Being rude
2) Sexually oriented jokes = Funny if done tastefully
3) I think highly of myself because my posts are most often educated and backed up with facts instead of my own opinions alone
4) I have high opinions of anyone else whom I feel deserves a high opinion.
5) "Also, don't be a cow" is a cultural reference to the second to latest The Simpsons article. I apologize if it was too obscure to catch.
6) I use my "sex" to win over idiots who make homophobic remarks or bring up sex in a conversation without reason. Or to respond to people who make sexually-charged jokes against me in tasteful ways first. And these posts make up, what, 1/200th of my entire post count?
7) If I'm so rude, you'd think I'd be breaking 29 different rules on a regular basis. Not a single infraction for that, still, though. The mods must be secret Yuna fanboys just waiting for the next sex-joke.

 

[SwampFox]

"In the world of Street Fighter competition, we have a word for players who aren't good: "scrub." Now, everyone begins as a scrub---it takes time to learn the game to get to a point where you know what you're doing."--Sirlin

Either way this topic should about wilt away and fade into oblivion since I've seen some advancements with the whole Ness/Lucas thing, and I believe a topic already exists regarding all chain grabs/ infinites..soo, yeah.

 

[Yuna]

"In the world of Street Fighter competition, we have a word for players who aren't good: "scrub." Now, everyone begins as a scrub---it takes time to learn the game to get to a point where you know what you're doing."--Sirlin

Either way this topic should about wilt away and fade into oblivion since I've seen some advancements with the whole Ness/Lucas thing, and I believe a topic already exists regarding all chain grabs/ infinites..soo, yeah.

Sirlin is not perfect, he's only human. He eventually goes on to contradict himself in that same paragraph when he describes what a scrub actually is... and not all people start out a scrub.

So you're right on that Sirlin made a mistake.

 

[SwampFox]

"In the world of Street Fighter competition, we have a word for players who aren't good: "scrub." Now, everyone begins as a scrub---it takes time to learn the game to get to a point where you know what you're doing. There is the mistaken notion, though, that by merely continuing to play or "learn" the game, that one can become a top player. In reality, the "scrub" has many more mental obstacles to overcome than anything actually going on during the game. The scrub has lost the game even before it starts. He's lost the game before he's chosen his character. He's lost the game even before the decision of which game is to be played has been made. His problem? He does not play to win.

The scrub would take great issue with this statement for he usually believes that he is playing to win, but he is bound up by an intricate construct of fictitious rules that prevent him from ever truly competing. These made up rules vary from game to game, of course, but their character remains constant. In Street Fighter, for example, the scrub labels a wide variety of tactics and situations "cheap." So-called "cheapness" is truly the mantra of the scrub. Performing a throw on someone often called cheap. A throw is a special kind of move that grabs an opponent and damages him, even when the opponent is defending against all other kinds of attacks. The entire purpose of the throw is to be able to damage an opponent who sits and blocks and doesn't attack. As far as the game is concerned, throwing is an integral part of the design---it's meant to be there---yet the scrub has constructed his own set of principles in his mind that state he should be totally impervious to all attacks while blocking. The scrub thinks of blocking as a kind of magic shield which will protect him indefinitely. Why? Exploring the reasoning is futile since the notion is ridiculous from the start."--Sirlin


Could you maybe point out where he contradicts himself, because I'm not quite seeing it.

I would also like to thank the person who originally linked me to these articles (Rebel I believe).They've helped me come to terms with a lot of things, a fine read for any competitive beginners.