Social The Pond - Greninja General Discussion

[Mocha]

Hydro Pump should not be listed as a weakness when the weakness is simple player error and not an actual weakness of the move.

Keep on Shadow Sneaking by mistake? Git gud. That's not the move's fault. That's the player's fault.

Can't properly align to the ledge? Git gud and don't hit the wall. Player's fault for not having enough accuracy to aim the move correctly.

My apologies, I forgot there are players out there who aren't human. I'll pretend I've never seen aMSa self-destruct, or hit the wall when using up b.

You made a good point though in that it's not fault of the character, but "getting gud" is subjective, since if Greninja players always played so flawlessly, we should never be losing a match. I added this section if it helps:

*Technical error by players* This small section isn't fault of the character's weaknesses, but of the player if the input does not come out as intended. As such, another reason the character requires precision.

• Up B is a great recovery, but it’s easy to buffer a Shadow Sneak by accident when trying to angle his recovery.
• "Bad game design" where Up B can bounce off the edge and send you into a helpless state (you can use an aerial/special/wall cling, but not Up B again)
• Neutral air prone to SDs if done off-stage (especially fast fallen).

 

[FullMoon]

So, guys, D-Tilt -> Shadow Sneak might be another air dodge bait-and-punish combo now that I think of it. This one might even be more effective than D-Throw -> Shadow Sneak because once you hit the opponent with the D-Tilt, most of the time they're either going to try to jump out of your range, which can still result in them getting hit by Up-Smash depending on their size or if you were fast enough to intercept them, or air-dodge, which if you bait you can punish with Shadow Sneak for the kill as well. Though I suppose some character might try to go for a N-Air or something, but I think Shadow Sneak can still hit them depending of the spacing.

So, if you hit the opponent with d-tilt but from too far to the point it doesn't guarantee the Up-Smash, try to bait an air dodge and hit with Shadow Sneak. I haven't tested this myself yet but it probably would work.

 

[elusiveTranscendent]

However I did manage to perfect pivot exactly once. So hey, I can now do a perfect pivot once every 100 tries, that's something I guess.

Same. Haha. I can't PP for the life of me.

Hey, guys! Been a while. I haven't really been playing much as of late, buuuut trying to get back into it.

 

[Coffee™]

This "reverse DACUS" (godawful and inaccurate name btw) thing is just the crawl momentum shifting trick that Diddy and Bowser have been using since release, no? Something about crawling backwards at a certain angle when landing instantly reversing your momentum, those two in particular abuse it well with Monkey Flip and Dash Slash. Shame we can't crawl after Hydro Pump...but yeah, it should work with any crawl.

In looking into it does seem like the same thing. I guess it was just more noticeable for those characters since they have specific moves that provide them with extra momentum. I've been testing it for the last 30 mins or so and it's honestly a lot easier to do than a perfect pivot but definitely not as applicable imo. Greninja seems to slide roughly the same distance as Shiek in my testing. It's absolutely disgusting on stages with slopes though as you can slide pretty far while throwing out a move.

Overall I'd say it's a decent microspacing tool but Greninja doesn't benefit from it all that much.

Why does Sheik get stuff like this, and we get stuff like up air spikes that can be teched/other complicated ATs? ._.;

DW, it's pretty "meh" for her too.

On another note, I spent over an hour working on a list of Greninja's strengths and weaknesses. Even if a lot of this is common sense, I want to be more aware of the character, and I think it may give an idea to new players as well who are trying to pick up Greninja. Anyway, let me know what you guys think, and if you have any suggestions. Oh and if I'm missing anything on either category. Thanks!

I think what you wrote is more of a "things to look out for when new to the character" than weaknesses per say. A lot of what you brought up can be highly mitigated through practice and just having solid fundamentals.

 

[elusiveTranscendent]

Hey, guys! Been a while. I haven't really been playing much as of late, buuuut trying to get back into it.

But, uh, yeah. I haven't had much of a motivation to play because all of my friends dropped playing it and I never get opportunities to go to my locals, so the only games I'd get are with friends locally on Smash 3DS during school. .-. Haven't visited Smashladder in ages, but planning on getting back and more active on there as well.

I went to the local I'd usually go to yesterday for the first time in three weeks, and got absolutely floored. Lost every game and got dead last. Haha. xD

See, look, it's a metaphor. Greninja is me and the tournament was the Delphox; I got wrecked.

And yep. That's what I've been up to.

 

[FullMoon]

But, uh, yeah. I haven't had much of a motivation to play because all of my friends dropped playing it and I never get opportunities to go to my locals, so the only games I'd get are with friends locally on Smash 3DS during school. .-. Haven't visited Smashladder in ages, but planning on getting back and more active on there as well.

I went to the local I'd usually go to yesterday for the first time in three weeks, and got absolutely floored. Lost every game and got dead last. Haha. xD

See, look, it's a metaphor. Greninja is me and the tournament was the Delphox; I got wrecked.

And yep. That's what I've been up to.

Man, where do you keep finding those Greninja pictures/gifs. Love that little Ghost'n Goblins reference.

To be honest I never went to a tournament but I don't think I'll do very well in one at all.

 

[Talazala]

You never know until you go! And sometimes it feels better to be bodied by a good player rather than lag so thick that you game is running at like 2 Hz.

Also, didn't know uair spike is techable. This is news to me, I'm guessing at high percentage it sends them tumbling, allowing the tech?

 

[elusiveTranscendent]

Man, where do you keep finding those Greninja pictures/gifs. Love that little Ghost'n Goblins reference.

To be honest I never went to a tournament but I don't think I'll do very well in one at all.

I have my ways. ;P

And Tal is right. You never know till you go! Plus, remembering the matches I had with you, you're certainly better than me.

 

[Marilink]

Mocha, I dunno if this should get added to your list or if your current list kind of implies it, but whenever someone asks me what Greninja's biggest weaknesses are I always tell them that "He cannot punish very easily, and he is very easily punished." What you said about Commitment/OoS options do cover that a little, but I do think that Greninja just doesn't have the punish game of other characters. (For instance, if a Fox shield my Fsmash, he gets a free run-up Usmash. If I shield a Fox Fsmash, I can maybe...get a grab? If he doesn't jab too quickly?)

 

[Mocha]

DW, it's pretty "meh" for her too.


I think what you wrote is more of a "things to look out for when new to the character" than weaknesses per say. A lot of what you brought up can be highly mitigated through practice and just having solid fundamentals.

I guess you could say it's a rough write-up of my understanding of the character. And yes, practice certainly should get you in the direction of not putting yourself in positions for your "weaknesses" to be exploited. Some people are struggling though.

Mocha, I dunno if this should get added to your list or if your current list kind of implies it, but whenever someone asks me what Greninja's biggest weaknesses are I always tell them that "He cannot punish very easily, and he is very easily punished." What you said about Commitment/OoS options do cover that a little, but I do think that Greninja just doesn't have the punish game of other characters. (For instance, if a Fox shield my Fsmash, he gets a free run-up Usmash. If I shield a Fox Fsmash, I can maybe...get a grab? If he doesn't jab too quickly?)

Mhm, I'd say it kind of falls down to the 'bad out of shield options' but I see what you mean by 'bad punish options' as well. It's like there's an awkward delay between the time we shield something, especially something that pushes our shield back - and then by the time we try to punish, our moves end up whiffing at point blank, or we are seemingly too slow to react to it.

Would this be a character or player fault? I've seen it happen consistently enough to assume the fault of the character, unless the timing for the punish on our part is simply that strict. If so, then this would again be yet another reason why precision is all the more prominent with this character.

Also let me know if there is anything you don't agree with on that list (as well as anyone else). I'm trying to get as much accuracy as possible.

 

[FullMoon]

Which reminds me, I don't really agree with Greninja not being able to get early kills generally. Not only does sweetspot Up-Smash kill early, Greninja is very good at edgeguarding and gimping so he can get a lot of early kills that way. Plus Shadow Sneak, F-Smash and F-Air can kill at decent enough percents, especially if you got the opponent close to the edge. I think it's more rare for Greninja to take long to kill than the inverse to me.

You should probably make Greninja's edgeguarding ability a strenght on it's own as well, after all I do feel he excels at that, even more so with customs on (hitting the opponent offstage with Shifting Shuriken to make them fly into a sweetspot Up-Smash for the kill and also Exploding Attack help a lot with that).

 

[Mocha]

How consistently do you get kills with F-Smash and/or Shadow Sneak? I'm aware those moves kill early (for Greninja standards), but both of those moves require commitment/reads and due to how laggy they are, you leave yourself open if you miss/badly time them. I guess "killing early" is more of a question of... "reliably kill early" than outright getting an early kill. Maybe I'm seeing something others are not though, so I would like to understand if that's the case.

I have his ability to gimp added as a strength already, but I can certainly elaborate more on this with his ability to edgeguard. Other than Hydro Pump gimps, B-air stage spikes, and early kills off the side with F-air/B-air, is there anything else I could look into expanding for this section?

 

[FullMoon]

Well, the commitment is a possible problem, yes, but I still manage to punish mistakes with F-Smash and Shadow Sneak fairly well. The D-Throw -> Shadow Sneak combo also helps a lot because the combined distance of the dash grab itself, plus the throw can pretty much guarantee the opponent will be close to the edge of the stage and so it can kill very early that way. I wouldn't say they are unreliable exactly, and more like you need to know when you should use them. Shadow Sneak has great range so it's good to punish some more laggy moves such as Ike's F-Smash, plus it's start-up actually works to its benefit because that allows you to catch rolls and spot-dodges pretty well with it. It's very easy to make the opponent spot-dodge expecting a dash grab but nope, Shadow Sneak to the face.

Greninja is not exactly only precision, he's also mindgames and unpredictability. Trying to bait stuff can be risky, but if you think the reward might be worth it, no reason not to try, living dangerously and all that.

As for edgeguarding, you should probably mention Shadow Sneak off-stage and I suppose meteor D-Air for the bold. You kinda discusses edgeguarding when you talked about Hydro Pump and B-Air, but I think it could use it's own section in his list of strengths just because he has so many options for edgeguarding.

 

[Talazala]

I remember seeing TLs using their down air for gimps in Brawl and thinking what a great move it is. I think Greninja's down air will have its offstage use too, it just takes practice and a little dairdevil spirit.

 

[Mocha]

Well, the commitment is a possible problem, yes, but I still manage to punish mistakes with F-Smash and Shadow Sneak fairly well. The D-Throw -> Shadow Sneak combo also helps a lot because the combined distance of the dash grab itself, plus the throw can pretty much guarantee the opponent will be close to the edge of the stage and so it can kill very early that way. I wouldn't say they are unreliable exactly, and more like you need to know when you should use them. Shadow Sneak has great range so it's good to punish some more laggy moves such as Ike's F-Smash, plus it's start-up actually works to its benefit because that allows you to catch rolls and spot-dodges pretty well with it. It's very easy to make the opponent spot-dodge expecting a dash grab but nope, Shadow Sneak to the face.

Greninja is not exactly only precision, he's also mindgames and unpredictability. Trying to bait stuff can be risky, but if you think the reward might be worth it, no reason not to try, living dangerously and all that.

As for edgeguarding, you should probably mention Shadow Sneak off-stage and I suppose meteor D-Air for the bold. You kinda discusses edgeguarding when you talked about Hydro Pump and B-Air, but I think it could use it's own section in his list of strengths just because he has so many options for edgeguarding.

When you say D-Throw > Shadow Sneak, are you referring to in general, or at the ledge? I believe you're talking about the ledge as another edgeguarding possibility, but just wanted to confirm. Is this something near guaranteed/difficult for the opponent to escape? Also, would you have to buffer a Shadow Sneak offstage after you've down thrown them from the ledge? Just curious - haven't tested down throw from the ledge enough.

Speaking of meteor D-Air, isn't there a particular spot on the ledge where he can still meteor and be 'safe' in case he misses? Like, he would be in his 'hanging over the edge' animation if he were to land.

 

[FullMoon]

When you say D-Throw > Shadow Sneak, are you referring to in general, or at the ledge? I believe you're talking about the ledge as another edgeguarding possibility, but just wanted to confirm. Is this something near guaranteed/difficult for the opponent to escape? Also, would you have to buffer a Shadow Sneak offstage after you've down thrown them from the ledge? Just curious - haven't tested down throw from the ledge enough.

Speaking of meteor D-Air, isn't there a particular spot on the ledge where he can still meteor and be 'safe' in case he misses? Like, he would be in his 'hanging over the edge' animation if he were to land.

D-Throw -> Shadow Sneak in general is a good way to kill. Even if the opponent is sent offstage by the throw it's still possible to nail them if they air-dodge, like in the very end of the one battle against Coffee that I posted in the video thread.

I'm also not exactly sure what "buffer" means, as noobish as that may look =V

Not too sure about that meteor D-Air thing though.

 

[Ekans647]

D-Throw -> Shadow Sneak in general is a good way to kill. Even if the opponent is sent offstage by the throw it's still possible to nail them if they air-dodge, like in the very end of the one battle against Coffee that I posted in the video thread.

I'm also not exactly sure what "buffer" means, as noobish as that may look =V

Not too sure about that meteor D-Air thing though.

You have to land the D-air at the beginning of the move directly vertical to the opponent.

 

[Mocha]

I think I also forgot to mention that charging shurikens near the edge will force your opponent to air dodge or recover low, so in a way, you are limiting their options.

Updated.


Edgeguarding (@ FullMoon insight)

Aside from Hydro Pump gimps, B-air pressure/stage spikes, and F-air, he has other options to attempt to edgeguard with.

• Shadow Sneak off-stage can net him a surprisingly early kill if well-spaced and used to bait an opponent's air dodge.
• D-air can meteor spike for those who love a bit of risk/reward
• Charging Water Shuriken near the edge can force your opponent to air dodge or recover low, limiting their options

(@ mimgrim insight) *Technical error by players* This small section isn't fault of the character's weaknesses, but of the player if the input does not come out as intended. As such, another reason the character requires precision.

• Up B is a great recovery, but it’s easy to buffer a Shadow Sneak by accident when trying to angle his recovery.
• "Bad game design" where Up B can bounce off the edge and send you into a helpless state (you can use an aerial/special/wall cling, but not Up B again)
• Neutral air prone to SDs if you get pushed off-stage or badly input one off-stage (especially fast fallen).

(@ Marilink insight)
1) Poor out of shield options/awkward punish options

• Bad standing grab (frame: 14/15)
• Shadow sneak out of shield requires strict timing if tilting your shield.
• Instances where after you shield and punish, you will miss at point blank (blind spot moves especially such as F-smash, D-smash, and F-air).

 

[FullMoon]

Oh yeah, the shurikens are a big thing to note as well. Being hit by a partially charge shuriken will most likely result in characters with bad horizontal recoveries such as Marth/Lucina falling to their death.

 

[Ludiloco]

Hey guys. I've posted a bit in the matchup thread, but I am just really starting to get into Greninja as a character. I really like what he can do and think he's a good anti-meta choice due to many people not knowing the matchup well and Greninja's toolbox really favoring high level play.

Gonna keep practicing, hoping to fully implement him as a secondary soon.

 

[FullMoon]

On another note, I'm currently working on a Greninja highlight video and I do have a good number of fun clips to show. So if any of you guys like watching my Greninja, stay tuned!

I'm hoping to get everything done by tomorrow. It's been a fun thing to work on.

 

[momochuu]

http://live.nicovideo.jp/watch/lv212250175?ref=zero_mysubscribe

amsa streaming stuff, he's playing lea too.

 

[Ludiloco]

Guys, I really like this character a lot. I think I'm going to be switching permanently, or at least co-maining him.

D3 is a lot of fun but he's very matchup dependent. I think Greninja has very few matchups where he really struggles, I have had difficulty with Bowsers and Yoshis but otherwise I feel 90% his matchups are even or slightly in his favor. Not to mention his combos are just a blast to pull off and look super flashy.

Looking forward to chatting more with you guys in the near future.

 

[Kace Mono]

do you guys ever have trouble trying to follow up too much with Fair? i feel like im trying to do it way too much.

 

[Sol0ke]

Sup guys

I'm picking up Greninja now.

He's so fun

 

[bc1910]

I don't know how to feel about Greninja as of late. On the one hand he's this amazingly speedy character with surprising KO potential, some very unique specials (which happen to be really good) and excellent range on a lot of attacks. But he just struggles so much in the neutral against some characters because his hitboxes are SO precise/bad in general. Like, retreating Fair is a really good poke but that's kind of it, and if you only have one option it's gonna get predictable fast. It just feels so hard to get hits with Greninja sometimes and the top tiers don't seem to have any trouble hitting him.

Maybe the shuriken nerf was a good thing, it sort of exposed Greninja's weaknesses and if it hadn't occurred we would have found ourselves with a character that gets by on one very simple spam tactic. Even though it didn't seem like that was the case before the nerfs, perhaps it was... who knows. It's like how people say Ganon would be stupid if he had his old autocancelling Dair in this game, but he'd only be stupid because of that one tactic, and that's not really healthy. I need to experiment more with Greninja's Dtilt, Dash Attack and jabs in the neutral, all of those options seem like solid pokes that don't put Greninja massively at risk.

I really want to believe Greninja has a lot of hidden high tier potential akin to Peach, but it's clear he's not as technical as her (she has a completely unique, exclusive mechanic which can even be used like a wavedash) nor does he have as many attacks that are obviously good, safe, and easy to hit with. Amsa's performance proves that the character at least has something, but it could be nothing more than people being unfamiliar with the matchup. It's also really, and I mean really disheartening to me that whenever actually good, respected players put out tier lists, Greninja is quite close to the bottom. This happened with Dabuz' and Nietono's tier lists, among others. It's especially worrying to see from Nietono since he used to play Greninja but dropped him. Plus Greninja is supposedly considered "very good" in Japan, that being one of the major reasons he was nerfed so badly.

I think Greninja's potential lies in the fact that his advantageous state is SO strong (I think it rivals heavies in terms of damage output and option coverage) and Hydro Pump is still a no risk, all reward edgeguard that can get kills at stupidly low percents. However once you start fighting good players it seems really hard to get to that advantageous state because his neutral is just so weak. Then you have characters like Sheik and Falcon with excellent neutral and strong advantageous states as well. I dunno, I don't mean to complain, I'm just venting, I hope someone can cheer me up haha.

EDIT: Oh, I did want to add something positive that I've found recently; Greninja's running shield seems to be really good. Like, he transitions into his running animation out of his dashing animation very quickly, which gives him a pretty safe approach option. Every character can use running shield obviously but Greninja's is a cut above most because of his fast dash speed and quick dash startup. If anyone has the frame data on how quickly Greninja can perform running shield that'd be great, since I can't find it anywhere.

 

[FullMoon]

I really want to believe Greninja has a lot of hidden high tier potential akin to Peach, but it's clear he's not as technical as her (she has a completely unique, exclusive mechanic which can even be used like a wavedash) nor does he have as many attacks that are obviously good, safe, and easy to hit with. Amsa's performance proves that the character at least has something, but it could be nothing more than people being unfamiliar with the matchup. It's also really, and I mean really disheartening to me that whenever actually good, respected players put out tier lists, Greninja is quite close to the bottom. This happened with Dabuz' and Nietono's tier lists, among others. It's especially worrying to see from Nietono since he used to play Greninja but dropped him. Plus Greninja is supposedly considered "very good" in Japan, that being one of the major reasons he was nerfed so badly.

Interestingly, I just watched a video of ZeRo playing as Greninja where he said he believes Greninja to be one of the best characters in the game and that he has top tier tools. So there's that at least. Greninja is apparently one of his favorite Pokémon as well so that's some respect points right there.

Greninja might not be as technical as Peach but that doesn't really mean anything. Greninja has a very precision-oriented playstyle that gives a high skill-ceiling no matter if there's trickier characters to use than him. Also, B-Air is also a safe poke so it's not just F-Air, I wanna say a well-spaced dash attack might be safe as well? Not sure on that. Greninja's neutral is bad, but it's manageable, plus he has an amazing advantageous state and he doesn't struggle much in disadvantage. He has his flaws but I think it's not that hard to work around them if you have good control over the character.

 

[bc1910]

Interestingly, I just watched a video of ZeRo playing as Greninja where he said he believes Greninja to be one of the best characters in the game and that he has top tier tools. So there's that at least. Greninja is apparently one of his favorite Pokémon as well so that's some respect points right there.

Greninja might not be as technical as Peach but that doesn't really mean anything. Greninja has a very precision-oriented playstyle that gives a high skill-ceiling no matter if there's trickier characters to use than him. Also, B-Air is also a safe poke so it's not just F-Air, I wanna say a well-spaced dash attack might be safe as well? Not sure on that. Greninja's neutral is bad, but it's manageable, plus he has an amazing advantageous state and he doesn't struggle much in disadvantage. He has his flaws but I think it's not that hard to work around them if you have good control over the character.

That's interesting. Would you have a link to the video? I'd like to watch it and hear his thoughts in full. I think he has some top tier tools as well which I outlined (Pump, Shurikens and his range in general, especially on Fair), I wonder if ZeRo thinks his top tier tools are the same or different.

Well I was just using Peach as an example. Her technicality gives her a huge amount of potential and room to grow, resulting in a high tier placement from many players. Greninja doesn't really have anything that jumps out at you like that in terms of character traits apart from his mobility which, whilst probably the best in the game overall, would work better with some long lasting hitboxes to complement it. Some of his moves do make you go "oh yeah, this character's good" though. Hydro Pump and Shuriken are both amazing, and Shadow Sneak is pretty good too.

Having bad neutral is what worries me. I just don't know if it's going to be manageable in this game because the neutral state makes up so much of a match. In Melee, Falcon's poor neutral doesn't keep him out of high tier partly because the neutral state makes up a much lower percentage of your average Melee match. I'm massively oversimplifying, but you get the idea.

 

[FullMoon]

That's interesting. Would you have a link to the video? I'd like to watch it and hear his thoughts in full. I think he has some top tier tools as well which I outlined (Pump, Shurikens and his range in general, especially on Fair), I wonder if ZeRo thinks his top tier tools are the same or different.

Well I was just using Peach as an example. Her technicality gives her a huge amount of potential and room to grow, resulting in a high tier placement from many players. Greninja doesn't really have anything that jumps out at you like that in terms of character traits apart from his mobility which, whilst probably the best in the game overall, would work better with some long lasting hitboxes to complement it. Some of his moves do make you go "oh yeah, this character's good" though. Hydro Pump and Shuriken are both amazing, and Shadow Sneak is pretty good too.

Having bad neutral is what worries me. I just don't know if it's going to be manageable in this game because the neutral state makes up so much of a match. In Melee, Falcon's poor neutral doesn't keep him out of high tier partly because the neutral state makes up a much lower percentage of your average Melee match. I'm massively oversimplifying, but you get the idea.

 

[Ekans647]

I firmly believe that Greninja's playstyle is a combination of Marth and Sheik. Greninja has be very precise with his spacing and has surprising strong KO power, while have great mobility and combos. This unfortunately, means that Greninja has to commit a lot to attacks, similar to Marth. The only thing he has going for his neutral is his Water Shuriken, a fast projectile transcendent priority, much like Sheik. As such, Greninja has only two options in neutral. Force your opponent to approach with Water Shuriken, or rushing down your opponent to break neutral as fast as possible. This is why Greninja has such a poor match up against other fast characters. Characters like Captain Falcon and Sonic are able to overwhelm Greninja's options with their speed. However, Greninja has very favorable match-ups against slower characters such as Ganondorf and Bowser. Like @ bc1910 said, Greninja's meta is going to have to rely on his extremely strong advantageous state.

 

[mimgrim]

Saying Greninja has a bad neutral is... misleading.

Same with Melee Falcon.

You don't simply have some of the best mobility in the game and have a bad neutral as well. It isn't possible.

I think what you guys are looking for is a bad approach game instead of a bad neutral game. And no, they are not one and the same.

The neutral game is about leading to the punish game. About getting your opponent to over extend and do something unsafe in neutral for you to punish. Greninja (and Melee Falcon) are actually great at doing this. But they suck at the aggressive/approaching game which is why they are passive aggressive characters. But their neutral is still really good.

 

[bc1910]

I know the difference between the neutral game and the approach game. Greninja's mobility helps and can indeed be used bait the opponent into over-extending but bait 'n' punish is not an accurate depiction of the entire neutral game. Nor does Greninja's strength in this area automatically make his neutral good necessarily, especially when you consider the weaknesses in his pokes (used offensively or defensively). Having said that, I do think there is a lot of room for his neutral to develop when one considers how safe some of his attacks become when spaced properly, even on shield.

Far more credible people than me have said Melee Falcon has a sub-par neutral game which is why I used that example, I won't pretend to have a brilliant understanding of Melee but I can understand why that particular character's neutral is considered poor in that game.

 

[mimgrim]

Baiting and punishing is the entirety of the neutral game. The neutral game is the concept of neither plwyer being in advantage or disadvantage with each player trying to get the other into disadvantage while getting yourself into advantage. Nothing more, nothing less.

Mobility is the most important aspect of the neutral game and Greninja is one of the most mobile characters in the game. After that is safe attacks that are hard to punish, of which Greninga does have wehn spaced correctly.

 

[Coffee™]

You underrate the character hard bc1910 . Greninja's only weakness is that he has mediocre OOS options.

If his standing grab was the standard 6-8 frames and he had one good aerial that could hit small opponents OOS he would easily be top tier. (rising fair would be amazing)

Also...Greninja and Falcon are more or less played the same way in neutral. You can honestly just watch falcon videos if you want to see more about how to approach the neutral.

Alsooo...can someone with more knowledge of frame data ( Lavani ?) elaborate on how viable Usmash OOS is as a punish tool? The side hitboxes start on frame 18 and cover a decent horizontal distance. Most characters aerials have more landing lag than that so I'm assuming this may be a thing to start utilizing?

 

[Lavani]

18f is really slow for an OoS option, for reference that's two frames slower than Samus' grab, and two frames faster than shielddrop fsmash.

Not having to shielddrop could make it interesting if you're expecting someone to try to land on your shield and you catch them with the sweetspot before they do anything, I suppose.

Most characters that have usmashes worth using OoS have much faster usmashes, in the 5~12f range.

 

[Coffee™]

18f is really slow for an OoS option, for reference that's two frames slower than Samus' grab, and two frames faster than shielddrop fsmash.

Thanks for the quick reply.

Oh yeah I know 18 is a lot, just looking to see if it had any decent applications.

Not having to shielddrop could make it interesting if you're expecting someone to try to land on your shield and you catch them with the sweetspot before they do anything, I suppose.

This is kinda what I'm getting at, moreso the side hitboxes as opposed to the sweetspot though. As bc1910 pointed out earlier Greninja has a really good run to shield. He can force characters to misspace their aerials pretty easily and possibly punish the end lag with Usmash OoS.

 

[Sosuke]

literally all i've been doing is playing monster hunter

when is the next balance patch jw

 

[elusiveTranscendent]

when is the next balance patch jw

One can dream.
Come on, they've totally at least gotta release a balance patch when Mewtwo comes out, right? ...Right??

 

[Funkermonster]

Trying to pick between Mega Man or Sonic as my secondary to use for a tournament this weekend. Still can't control my multi character habit unfortunately, by for this week I think I can limit myself to just Greninja and these 2 and I'll be good to go, gonna try and avoid using no more than 5 chars this week to keep my Shinobi skills up to par.. The Blue Bomber or The Blue Blur.... decisions, decisions... I just noticed my 3 favorite characters are blue, and blues coincidentally my favorite color lol.

This is also the last tournament before the Power Rankings for Sm4sh is made in my state. Even though I haven't played the other Smash games competitively up until last September, I've been placing at ;least inside Top 10 most of my tournies so far and I hope to keep my good record going for this one. Not sure if I'll make it this time (not countin' on it) but if I make it on the AZ PR, I've either got to be one of the quickest learners or have the longest run of beginners' luck, haha. And even if I don't make it on this one, I think I'm getting a realistic chance to make the cut next time and be a representative of our favorite Amphibious Acrobat.

*sighs* I feel I could've been a better player by now if I hadn't played so many pockets over the past few months.. Looks like I better try and fix that now.

 

[bc1910]

On the topic of Greninja's dash to shield, here's something cool that I just pieced together (some of you might know already). When you do dash to shield you're already holding your shield forward, which means Shadow Sneak OoS is a much faster punishment option after dash to shield. This is because you don't have to waste time carefully moving your shield forward, since tapping forward will just make you roll.